Police Harrassment..?

[dazzleman]

You just said that you have to treat everyone as a potential threat.? So do I, then.? There's hoping for the best, and there's preparing for the worst.? And showing no trust in an individual officer, or the police force as a whole, is preparing for the worst.? That's how I see it.?

Hey, this is going pretty well!? I'm pretty abrasive most of the time when it comes to the police.?

You're creating a false equivalency here, Raza.

Police officers have to view everybody as a threat, because the public isn't screened.  It can include anybody, including a brutal murderer that was released by a bleeding heart liberal judge because we wouldn't want to violate his rights.

Police officers, OTOH, are screened psychologically and trained.  I'm not saying that's perfect, but I'd trust my safety to a police officer before I'd trust it to a random member of the general public who could be a dangerous criminal.

[dazzleman]

After reading Rohan's comment I think the line "if it comes down to it I have no problem with shooting you so I get to go home to my family" implies that if he didn't shoot you he'd be dead or in a hospital.? It's fair to say that he is describing a deadly force situation.? Of course, you ignore what should be obvious.? But when obvious is inconvenient it is ignored.? Treating someone as a possible threat should not imply treatment as a criminal.? An officer should be professional but is not required to kiss your ass or put himself in a vulnerable position so you won't be offended or have your feelings hurt.?

Your last sentence hits the nail right on the head, Greg.? There are some people who seem to think that policemen should put their lives in danger to avoid offending anybody.? Until a police officer can get some information about a person, anybody is a potential threat.  Treating somebody as a potential threat is not the same thing as treating them as a criminal.

[Raza]

After reading Rohan's comment I think the line "if it comes down to it I have no problem with shooting you so I get to go home to my family" implies that if he didn't shoot you he'd be dead or in a hospital.? It's fair to say that he is describing a deadly force situation.? Of course, you ignore what should be obvious.? But when obvious is inconvenient it is ignored.? Treating someone as a possible threat should not imply treatment as a criminal.? An officer should be professional but is not required to kiss your ass or put himself in a vulnerable position so you won't be offended or have your feelings hurt.?

Yes, were I some gun toting criminal, I'd understand him using his weapon. 

Must I remind you of the people who were unarmed and shot to death by the police, or unarmed, falsely arrested and raped with a plunger by the police, or the like?

You made an assumption that I ignored the fact that I would be forcing him to use his gun.  You ignored the fact that cops are fallible, armed, and have killed innocents in the past.  That "so I can go home to my family" mentality is the reason cops end up shooting and killing unarmed people that are perceived as a threat even though they are not.  They want to get home to their families as well.

The officer doesn't have to kiss my ass, and I'm not going to kiss his either.  You put them on a pedestal that says it's okay for them to treat me a certain way but not okay for me to treat them the same manner.  I don't do that.  I don't agree with that at all. 

[Raza]

You're creating a false equivalency here, Raza.

Police officers have to view everybody as a threat, because the public isn't screened.? It can include anybody, including a brutal murderer that was released by a bleeding heart liberal judge because we wouldn't want to violate his rights.

Police officers, OTOH, are screened psychologically and trained.? I'm not saying that's perfect, but I'd trust my safety to a police officer before I'd trust it to a random member of the general public who could be a dangerous criminal.

I don't trust them either.  But I'm no more inclined to trust someone because the government puts faith in them. 

[Raza]

You guys will obviously never see my point of view.? I think it's ridiculous to trust anyone because of the clothes they wear to work.? You don't.

You can keep getting raped, but I won't.? There's no convincing you otherwise.?

Although it is telling that you don't even realize how wronged you (or in this case, Teut) should feel and you stand up for the system that allows it to happen. 

[ChrisV]

You guys will obviously never see my point of view. 

I wonder how many here have been pulled over for DWB (Driving While Black/brown). I haven't (can't really, though I have been followed for a DWY) but I know people who have. When you're part of a group historically harassed for the way you look by those in authority, you tend to get exactly the way you describe.

[dazzleman]

You guys will obviously never see my point of view.? I think it's ridiculous to trust anyone because of the clothes they wear to work.? You don't.

You can keep getting raped, but I won't.? There's no convincing you otherwise.?

Although it is telling that you don't even realize how wronged you (or in this case, Teut) should feel and you stand up for the system that allows it to happen.?

I'd rather live with this system, than have criminals rum rampant, and live with that system.  You don't seem to recognize that there is a consequence to handcuffing the police.

[dazzleman]

I wonder how many here have been pulled over for DWB (Driving While Black/brown). I haven't (can't really, though I have been followed for a DWY) but I know people who have. When you're part of a group historically harassed for the way you look by those in authority, you tend to get exactly the way you describe.

I might have a little more sympathy for a poor dark person who has been harassed by the police when he didn't do anything wrong.

On the contrary, Raza's a rich kid who has been given big breaks when he has engaged in reckless behavior.

I think it's sad that he has a victim fixation.? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The whole problem between the police and people with darker skin is a cycle caused by a lot of circumstances that are beyond the control of the police.? It's not fair to blame one side fully for the problem.  It can also go the other way -- I could be pulled over for DWW if I make it a point to hang around certain types of neighborhoods.

[Catman]

Must I remind you of the people who were unarmed and shot to death by the police, or unarmed, falsely arrested and raped with a plunger by the police, or the like?

I don't need a reminder, we practice it daily.  It's part of our daily routine.  As a matter of fact my box of plungers just got delivered by FEDeX. 

[dazzleman]

I don't need a reminder, we practice it daily.? It's part of our daily routine.? As a matter of fact my box of plungers just got delivered by FEDeX.?

Make sure you keep up a good supply, Greg.  With the type of force you guys use, I'm sure a lot of them break.

[Raza]

I don't need a reminder, we practice it daily.? It's part of our daily routine.? As a matter of fact my box of plungers just got delivered by FEDeX.?

Yeah?

You ever take the plungers home for personal use with Mrs. Catman?

[Raza]

I might have a little more sympathy for a poor dark person who has been harassed by the police when he didn't do anything wrong.

On the contrary, Raza's a rich kid who has been given big breaks when he has engaged in reckless behavior.

I think it's sad that he has a victim fixation.? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The whole problem between the police and people with darker skin is a cycle caused by a lot of circumstances that are beyond the control of the police.? It's not fair to blame one side fully for the problem.? It can also go the other way -- I could be pulled over for DWW if I make it a point to hang around certain types of neighborhoods.

When I do break bullshit laws, I have gotten off with a slap on the wrists.? But I've also been harassed when not breaking any laws at all.?

And I'm not asking for sympathy.  I'm asking for you to realize that putting your faith in people that don't deserve it is idiotic.  You happen to think that everyone who wears a police uniform is god, and should be allowed to do whatever he or she wants.  You seem to like the abrasive nature of the system. 

[dazzleman]

When I do break bullshit laws, I have gotten off with a slap on the wrists.? But I've also been harassed when not breaking any laws at all.?

And I'm not asking for sympathy.? I'm asking for you to realize that putting your faith in people that don't deserve it is idiotic.? You happen to think that everyone who wears a police uniform is god, and should be allowed to do whatever he or she wants.? You seem to like the abrasive nature of the system.?

So it's a bullshit law that you shouldn't go 70 mph in a 35 mph zone?? I think you'd consider any law you broke to be a bullshit law.

I don't believe the police are gods or should be able to do anything they want.? But I do believe they need to have a certain degree of latitude, and I'd rather they have that, than deal with the increased crime that would come from unduly handcuffing the police.

As for the 'abrasive nature of the system,' yes I do like it when people who need to keep order are tough.  This abrasivity, to the extent it exists, is a side effect of the fact that policemen have to be tough.  That's just the way it is.  I'll accept that if it's the price of relative safety from criminals, in a heartbeat.

[ChrisV]

I might have a little more sympathy for a poor dark person who has been harassed by the police when he didn't do anything wrong.

On the contrary, Raza's a rich kid who has been given big breaks when he has engaged in reckless behavior.

I think it's sad that he has a victim fixation.  It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The whole problem between the police and people with darker skin is a cycle caused by a lot of circumstances.  It's not fair to blame one side fully for the problem.

It takes two to make an argument, and it takes two to keep that problem going. Are you saying cops are too stupid to be taught not to keep up that "rivalry?" I'm going to blame anyone who keeps it up, from the gang member that won't learn to the individual cop that actively treats ordinary citizens as criminals first, to the lawmaker that writes laws that are geared toward the lowest common denominator and revenue generation that set the tone for officers to look for ANY little tiny infraction that will let them treat the "suspect" as a criminal first. None of it is preventing crime!

[Raza]

So it's a bullshit law that you shouldn't go 70 mph in a 35 mph zone?? I think you'd consider any law you broke to be a bullshit law.

I'm also not entirely conviced I was doing 70mph in the first place.  Besides the fact that the speed limit on that road is comically low for a four lane road, for me to be doing 70mph, I would have had to be doing nearly an indicated 75 in the short period in which they caught me, and since I was crusing at 45 from the time I accelerated to pass the car, I find it nearly impossible to have tacked on 30mph in just a few car lengths.  My car just isn't that fast. 

I probably just got above 60, and they rounded up. 

[TheIntrepid]

Damn, what a heated debate! I love reading mature arguments like this.

Well the only time I was scared on the road was one night when I was coming home from work on an empty 3-lane road with a 70km/h limit. I had my low beams and fog lights on and was going about ~90km/h on the empty road when I sailed past a Grand Cherokee. Right after I went past it, it pulled into my lane and sped up to match my speed and stayed on me with the high beams on for a few kilometres. There weren't any other cars around so I switched over to the right lane to let the person pass. She didn't, and kept following me.

I was a bit freaked out and was a new driver at the time, so I saw a left turn coming up and went across 3 lanes into the left turn lane and made that turn without signaling, and she came after me. She cut me off and started screaming vulgarities at me after getting out of her car (at a red light). I pulled around her and flew off.

[dazzleman]

Damn, what a heated debate! I love reading mature arguments like this.

Well the only time I was scared on the road was one night when I was coming home from work on an empty 3-lane road with a 70km/h limit. I had my low beams and fog lights on and was going about ~90km/h on the empty road when I sailed past a Grand Cherokee. Right after I went past it, it pulled into my lane and sped up to match my speed and stayed on me with the high beams on for a few kilometres. There weren't any other cars around so I switched over to the right lane to let the person pass. She didn't, and kept following me.

I was a bit freaked out and was a new driver at the time, so I saw a left turn coming up and went across 3 lanes into the left turn lane and made that turn without signaling, and she came after me. She cut me off and started screaming vulgarities at me after getting out of her car (at a red light). I pulled around her and flew off.

She sounds like a real peach....

Maybe she was one of those hypocritical safety nazis who was offended that you were speeding?  Or maybe she was just a plain psycho.

[TheIntrepid]

I'm glad I don't see people like her very often.

The road rage in India is freaking ridiculous.

[dazzleman]

I'm glad I don't see people like her very often.

The road rage in India is freaking ridiculous.

Really?  Have you been driving a lot over there?

[TheIntrepid]

Yeah but I don't dare get behind the wheel in Mumbai; I'm too damn scared.

outside the city, I drive an 800cc Maruti Suzuki Alto with an air conditioner. I shall post pictures when I get back to Canada.

[ro51092]

I'm glad I don't see people like her very often.

The road rage in India is freaking ridiculous.

Are you kidding me? Those people can't do shit. It can be bad, but you gotta realize that they don't do shit. Some guy who looked kinda shady got pissed with something I did on some freeway, so he got all worked up and pointed to an alley, which I went to, because I knew I could probably take him. Plus, there was a cricket bat in the backseat for some reason (not my car, my uncles). As soon as I got out of the car, he backed down. People in India try to be tough, but if you stick it to them, they cant do shit.

[ro51092]

Although I admit, that was kinda stupid. It's just that most people in that area are smallfry, and when I got a look at that guy, he was a shrimp.

[dazzleman]

Are you kidding me? Those people can't do shit. It can be bad, but you gotta realize that they don't do shit. Some guy who looked kinda shady got pissed with something I did on some freeway, so he got all worked up and pointed to an alley, which I went to, because I knew I could probably take him. Plus, there was a cricket bat in the backseat for some reason (not my car, my uncles). As soon as I got out of the car, he backed down. People in India try to be tough, but if you stick it to them, they cant do shit.

Dude, isn't that a little general? 

[the nameless one]

I'm also not entirely conviced I was doing 70mph in the first place.? Besides the fact that the speed limit on that road is comically low for a four lane road, for me to be doing 70mph, I would have had to be doing nearly an indicated 75 in the short period in which they caught me, and since I was crusing at 45 from the time I accelerated to pass the car, I find it nearly impossible to have tacked on 30mph in just a few car lengths.? My car just isn't that fast.?

I probably just got above 60, and they rounded up.?

That would still put you at 15 over. "rounded up" by 10-15 MPH? Hardly likely. It doesn't matter if you think the road spewed limit is comically low, you are expected to follow it.
Doesn't sound to me like anyone was "harassing" you at all.

[Raza]

That would still put you at 15 over. "rounded up" by 10-15 MPH? Hardly likely. It doesn't matter if you think the road spewed limit is comically low, you are expected to follow it.
Doesn't sound to me like anyone was "harassing" you at all.

I didn't say I was harassed in that instance.  I got off light for my supposed offense. 

And let's not argue about the legitimacy of ultra low speed limits and laws you should follow even though they don't make any sense.  My fingers would fall off before you changed your mind.

[the nameless one]

If you disagree with the law, then get that law changed, if enough people agree with you. Otherwise, abide by the law in question.

[dazzleman]

If you disagree with the law, then get that law changed, if enough people agree with you. Otherwise, abide by the law in question.

Raza will never do that. 

For me, it's enough if people just don't bitch about getting busted for violating laws they don't agree with.  I say, if you choose to break the law, know the consequences in advance, and understand that in breaking the law, you are choosing to accept the consequences without complaint if you get caught.

[ro51092]

Dude, isn't that a little general? 

Even outside the road. I was at a train station where somebody tried to cut me in line, so I pushed him out of the way. He blatantly cut me, on a 15-20 minute line. He just went back to the back of the line. Go to Mumbai, you will see exactly what I mean. Same way New Yorkers are apparently rude. I've met plenty of very kind ones, as well as the typical asshole. Funny how other cities in India aren't like that (Surat, etc.)

[dazzleman]

Even outside the road. I was at a train station where somebody tried to cut me in line, so I pushed him out of the way. He blatantly cut me, on a 15-20 minute line. He just went back to the back of the line. Go to Mumbai, you will see exactly what I mean. Same way New Yorkers are apparently rude. I've met plenty of very kind ones, as well as the typical asshole. Funny how other cities in India aren't like that (Surat, etc.)

When I was up in Boston, waiting on line to get into an elevator to take me to the top of the Prudential Building, it appeared that a man was trying to cut the line in front of me.

I politely pointed out where the line began, and he said something like, "I'm not trying to cut into the line.  I'm not a Yankee, I'm a southerner and we're too polite to do that" or something to that effect.

So wanting to make a point without being overly confrontational, I asked him where he was from, and he said someplace in North Carolina.  He asked me where I was from, and I said, "Connecticut.  I'm definitely a Yankee."

He went to the end of the line, and we had a little more pleasant conversation.  Still, I thought he was kind of rude to initiate an insult of northerners, in Boston of all places.

[Raza]

If you disagree with the law, then get that law changed, if enough people agree with you. Otherwise, abide by the law in question.

That's a horrible bit of advice.  To get any of these laws changed, I'd have to quit my job, drop out of school, and devote my life to it because of all the safety nazis and the lay-down-and-take-its.