Nissan GT-R Engine Code: Not VQ

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Yeah, but the Evo is also based on a car that costs half as much.?

But the point is that performance can be assembled for a reasonable amount.

The EVO uses a whole different set of components, all thats shared between the lancer and an evo is a limited number of parts(usually non performance related things like rear seats, dashboard, carpet, etc).

Motor, transmission, rear suspension, front suspension, brakes, front rear bumper, roof, hood, taillights, headlights, fenders, rear quarter panels, front seats, gauges, and much more is all unique to the EVO.

Short of the chassis and a few non  visable parts pin pieces its a very different car.

I see the new GTR as being the same from a cost performance standpoint. Nissan is taking the existing FM plateform(same as the evo) and modifying it heavily and using unique parts for just this one model.

If they are shooting for 45K then they should have no problem.

A EVO is a lancer with 15K of factory performance in it(simplified to an extent), imagine an EVO with 15K more in factory performance.

[sportyaccordy]

I don't know why you are saying this, you sound so certain of yourself.

I personally think it will be lighter than the G37, or at most the same weight.

Didn't Q45's ring in at 3800 to 4000 lbs???

The GTR will NOT be that high.

This reminds me of how everyone thinks the Old TT Z's were like 4000lbs, its so far off its not even funny.

FYI, I weighed my Z32 the other day and with full fluids minus the driver it was almost 3500 on the dot.

I'm sure the GTR will have aluminum for just about every panel, if not carbon for the roof/trunk/hood. Lightweight suspension bits, forged lightweight wheels etc etc.

Something's gotta give. Either it will be 45K and weigh more than the G37, or it will be the supercar you imagine and cost significantly more.

The G37 weighs 3700#. Unless they make the GT-R have an aluminum body w/aluminum and CF bits, which will cost a ton of money, there is just no way it will weigh less.

Again it's pretty pointless to argue about it now as we'll see what happens when the car comes out. But I'm just being realistic. I'm sure it won't take away from how great the car is, but it's simple physics.

[565]

Something's gotta give. Either it will be 45K and weigh more than the G37, or it will be the supercar you imagine and cost significantly more.

The G37 weighs 3700#. Unless they make the GT-R have an aluminum body w/aluminum and CF bits, which will cost a ton of money, there is just no way it will weigh less.

Again it's pretty pointless to argue about it now as we'll see what happens when the car comes out. But I'm just being realistic. I'm sure it won't take away from how great the car is, but it's simple physics.

For all the talk about platform sharing, can anyone even tell us what parts between the FM cars are actually shared?  I haven't read anything that says which parts are specifically shared between the cars.  I remember making a thread on C&D a while back asking what platform sharing actually means for unibody cars.  Since these aren't body on frame cars, obviously they aren't just snaping on different bodies onto the same frame.  The few knowledgable responses that did come back suggested very little mechanical things are actually shared.  It might be just using the same assembly line attachment points so they can be put on the same assembly line,  or the same suspension mounting points, or similar concepts of engine placement, and sometimes bits of the steering column designs.  A shared platform is often more of an abstract concept than a tangible object.  Thus Nissan's FM is more a marketing tool and idea.  You can't point to a single design and say, oh that's the FM platform that's under all those different cars.  All the FM cars have different unibody structures, they have different wheelbases and very different weights.  Now Nissan tells us that the GTR is riding on a unqiue FM platform that is a distinct departure from the FM's before it, it will be almost impossible to guess at the GTR's weight from the now completely unrelated G37's weight.

The introduction of the VR name means a very significant engine change for Nissan as well.  The VQ moniker has stayed with Nissan's latest generation for a long time, and over numerous upgrades.  They didn't change it when they bumped hp from 190 to 222 with variable valve timing.  They didn't change it when they punched the displacement to 3.5 liters.  They didn't change it when they punched it out again to 4.0 liters for trucks.  They didn't change it when they introduced smaller 2.5 liter direct injection models, nor turbocharged versions for the domestic market.  They didn't change it for the REV UP or HR models that featured much stronger internals and a higher redline.  They even didn't change it when they stuffed a twin turbocharged version making 500hp for their JGTC500 Skylines and 350Z's.  All this time the engine has remained a VQ. The name shift must represent something fundmentally different about the VR architecture.  The last time Nissan changed the name of their V6 engine, it was the replacement of the VG and VE with the VQ.  The big news with that was the lightness and compactness of the VQ compared to it's predecessor.  The VQ was 1.2 inches shorter, 3.9 inches narrower, and 108 pounds lighter and less complicated than the engine it replaced.  It also shared no parts with the older engines and was all aluminum rather than cast iron.  Perhaps a similar fundamental change has happened here.  The VR engine may actually be more compact and simpler than the now aging VQ.  Nissan may be using something other than aluminum for the block as well.  Perhaps magnesium with strong sleeves to handle the forced induction. 

[MX793]

Where is this $45K number coming from?  All reports indicate that the new GT-R is going to run somewhere in the same price territory as the new M3 and Corvette Z06 (in otherwords, north of $60K).  At that price, they can afford to use some weight saving measures.

[red_shift]

Where is this $45K number coming from?? All reports indicate that the new GT-R is going to run somewhere in the same price territory as the new M3 and Corvette Z06 (in otherwords, north of $60K).? At that price, they can afford to use some weight saving measures.

With the 335i offering nearly the same level of performance as the new M3, it wil be interesting to see how it will stack up against GTR. If GTR offers significantly better performance for similar money, then M3 would be in trouble from two fronts.

[sportyaccordy]

For all the talk about platform sharing, can anyone even tell us what parts between the FM cars are actually shared? I haven't read anything that says which parts are specifically shared between the cars. I remember making a thread on C&D a while back asking what platform sharing actually means for unibody cars. Since these aren't body on frame cars, obviously they aren't just snaping on different bodies onto the same frame. The few knowledgable responses that did come back suggested very little mechanical things are actually shared. It might be just using the same assembly line attachment points so they can be put on the same assembly line, or the same suspension mounting points, or similar concepts of engine placement, and sometimes bits of the steering column designs. A shared platform is often more of an abstract concept than a tangible object. Thus Nissan's FM is more a marketing tool and idea. You can't point to a single design and say, oh that's the FM platform that's under all those different cars. All the FM cars have different unibody structures, they have different wheelbases and very different weights. Now Nissan tells us that the GTR is riding on a unqiue FM platform that is a distinct departure from the FM's before it, it will be almost impossible to guess at the GTR's weight from the now completely unrelated G37's weight.

I know for a fact FM cars share the same front and rear subframes and engine mounting points... so crossmembers and all that are the same.

Obviously there are different wheelbases but I'm sure the cars are all built on the same line.

And of course they all share the same motor. So they have the same engine and suspension... the rest is pretty much cosmetic.

The introduction of the VR name means a very significant engine change for Nissan as well. The VQ moniker has stayed with Nissan's latest generation for a long time, and over numerous upgrades. They didn't change it when they bumped hp from 190 to 222 with variable valve timing. They didn't change it when they punched the displacement to 3.5 liters. They didn't change it when they punched it out again to 4.0 liters for trucks. They didn't change it when they introduced smaller 2.5 liter direct injection models, nor turbocharged versions for the domestic market. They didn't change it for the REV UP or HR models that featured much stronger internals and a higher redline. They even didn't change it when they stuffed a twin turbocharged version making 500hp for their JGTC500 Skylines and 350Z's. All this time the engine has remained a VQ. The name shift must represent something fundmentally different about the VR architecture. The last time Nissan changed the name of their V6 engine, it was the replacement of the VG and VE with the VQ. The big news with that was the lightness and compactness of the VQ compared to it's predecessor. The VQ was 1.2 inches shorter, 3.9 inches narrower, and 108 pounds lighter and less complicated than the engine it replaced. It also shared no parts with the older engines and was all aluminum rather than cast iron. Perhaps a similar fundamental change has happened here. The VR engine may actually be more compact and simpler than the now aging VQ. Nissan may be using something other than aluminum for the block as well. Perhaps magnesium with strong sleeves to handle the forced induction.

Not to be a stickler for detail but the bump from 190 to 222 came from a variable induction length intake manifold.

As far as Nissan using magnesium for the block, we can only hope. However, BMW didn't use magnesium on the turbo N54 motor, I'm guessing because of the added stress. Plus in any case the turbo housing and manifolds will probably have to be cast iron.

The VQ is already a pretty light motor. The 3.5L is lighter than the 3.0L. Perhaps if they use a plastic intake manifold, CF valve covers, etc. they can keep the weight down. But I just don't see this being lighter than the G37. It's not like the C6 Z06 that doesn't have any additional hardware from the regular C6.

Again we will see what happens. The R34 GT-R weighed about 3500 with an iron L6 block. Maybe they have some tricks up their sleeves...

[ChrisV]

Doesn't matter. Nissan engineers are so stupid that they are using 21" of bling bling wheels instead of shooting for what any teenager here knows is the better performance wheel. Apparently they aren't going for performance at all with this car, so yeah, it'll weigh over 4000 lbs (most of that in the wheels themselves).

[Submariner]

Doesn't matter. Nissan engineers are so stupid that they are using 21" of bling bling wheels instead of shooting for what any teenager here knows is the better performance wheel. Apparently they aren't going for performance at all with this car, so yeah, it'll weigh over 4000 lbs (most of that in the wheels themselves).

Fucking n00b. 

The Nissan Skyline is obviously going to be the best car in the world, like, ever.  I mean d00d, I've driven the new one and it weights only 2000 pounds like awsome huh, and will  blow that piece of trash Corvette back to redneck town where it's AT!  Furthermore (notice how i used furthermore, cauz us importfans are so smart) the VQ (that stands for "very quality) engine is underrated and makes 800 horsepower, and it even has computer programs to make sure the AWD doesnt suck power from the engione!  I'd love to see the corvette do that, with it's covered wagon suspension and RWD (real wussy drive)  and whats sweet is that every skyline comes with a PS3 so when you're waiting at a stoplight waiting to smoke some piece of trash car, you can play playstation, so, bitches, the skyline OWNS YOU.

[565]

I know for a fact FM cars share the same front and rear subframes and engine mounting points... so crossmembers and all that are the same.

Obviously there are different wheelbases but I'm sure the cars are all built on the same line.

And of course they all share the same motor. So they have the same engine and suspension... the rest is pretty much cosmetic.hin

Yes but is there anything inherently heavier about an FM subframe or engine mounting point compared to the competition?? I don't see how you are predicting the weight of an entire car based on a few parts that probably add up to 50-100 pounds total.

It's not like the C6 Z06 that doesn't have any additional hardware from the regular C6.

Again we will see what happens. The R34 GT-R weighed about 3500 with an iron L6 block. Maybe they have some tricks up their sleeves...

Actually the C6 Z06 carries plenty of weight adding hardware in addition to the base C6 (though not so much compared to the Z51).? And if anything, the Z06 is indication that Nissan will be able to shave large amounts of weight with a few smart changes.? The Z06 is listed to weigh about 50 pounds less than a base C6, but that doesn't mean GM engineers only managed to shave 50 pounds from the car.? Just the aluminum frame is 140 pounds lighter than the C6 steel frame.? Then we have the carbon fiber fenders which save 3kg each.? Then the front wheelhouse outer panels saved 0.73kg each. The carbon fiber floor panels saved 1.41kg each.? That comes to 22.6 pounds of weight savings.? The magnesium front cross member saves another 12 pounds.? They we have the magnesium roof and engine cradle which I can't really find the numbers for but probably shave a bit of weight as well.? In the end we are looking at at least some 175 pounds of weight reduction (ignoring the cradle and roof), possibly closer to 200 pounds if we factor in everything.? ?GM added weight back in the form of bigger brakes, and brake calipers, beefier drivetrain components and of course that dry sump lubrication system, which add about 125-150 pounds of weight back to the Z06 if we compare to the base C6's weight.? When we compare the Z06 to the Z51 (3280 pounds) which comes with larger brakes and calipers along with some luxury bits, we still find a weight savings of around 150 pounds.? This means the luxury bits of the Z51 must have added quite a bit of extra weight as well.

Yet for such drastic weigh reduction, how many parts interact differently?? Of 1,777 parts that make up a Corvette, only 11 interface differently with the Z06 than they do with the base model.? The Z06 at the time of introduction costs about 24,000 more than the base C6.? If we compare the Z06 to the Z51 (a more far comparision) it price differences is closer to 15,000-20,000 dollars.? Now remember GM was shaving weigh off an already lightweight non luxury sports car.? Very few sports cars of the C6's size and power weigh less and don't cost an arm and a leg.

The Z06 and C6 are virtually the same car from the mechanical perspective.? Very few parts are actually structurally different, but rather just made from lighter materials.? The C6 is not a luxury car and is already considered to be quite light in it's field, making it quite hard to achieve additional weight loss.? And the C6 and Z06 are seperated? by some 15,000-20,000 dollars in price when similarly equip. Now compare this to what Nissan is doing.? Nissan's GTR and G37 will not be the same car from a mechnical perspective, instead it comes with a dedicated engine and dedicated platform.? The G37 is a luxury car with plenty of luxury gadgets, heavy high end materals.? Nissan's GTR will not be a luxury car, most reflected in the decision to not badge it as an Infiniti.? The GTR is expected to come in at 70 grand or so, compared to the 30 or so grand G37.? There is talk of even lighter 90k versions.? That's alot more money than GM had to play with in the Z06.? Thus there are many many more oppotunities to shave weight from a GTR than from a Z06.

[Zcarnut]

I wonder if this is some of the info "leaked" that our Nissan rep mentioned earlier this week?
Nissan's is going to clamp down even tighter on GTR info.Apparantly they are watching what Toyota/Lexus is doing with their "supercar" too.
About the weight thing.Mandatory safety improvements now can cost some pounds that the R34 didnt have to worry about.

[sportyaccordy]

565 I think you're grossly underestimating the weight of the different parts of the GT-R vs the G37. Even if for whatever reason they used the 3400# G35 coupe as a base, you still have

- two turbos
- intercooling
- piping
- front differential
- some kind of transfer case
- front axles

Then of course they have to brace the chassis, etc. I could see them keeping it close if they make it out of aluminum and carbon fiber... which is entirely possible. But again we'll see.

[Raghavan]

565 I think you're grossly underestimating the weight of the different parts of the GT-R vs the G37. Even if for whatever reason they used the 3400# G35 coupe as a base, you still have

- two turbos
- intercooling
- piping
- front differential
- some kind of transfer case
- front axles

Then of course they have to brace the chassis, etc. I could see them keeping it close if they make it out of aluminum and carbon fiber... which is entirely possible. But again we'll see.

Don't forget the 21" rimz.

[red_shift]

Don't forget the 21" rimz.

They are going to make them light weight by using multi layered honeycomb Carbon and Magnesium vapor to keep the weight down. Atleast that's what I heard.

[565]

565 I think you're grossly underestimating the weight of the different parts of the GT-R vs the G37. Even if for whatever reason they used the 3400# G35 coupe as a base, you still have

Well I guess that's the distinct difference in how you and I think about this problem.? You are basing everything off some kind of G35/37 weight, thinking about everything in relation to that base weight.? But this new GTR isn't built along the same ideas of the old GTR or the current M3, which involves heavily modifying the base car.? The GTR is it's own new car, with its own new platform and its own new engine.

I am willing to look at it as its own car, and to me the facts are quite simple.? The GTR's target is the 911 turbo.? It's been running as fast or faster than the 911 turbo on tracks such as laguna seca.? It doesn't have more power than the 911.? Unless Nissan has somehow found a way to violate the laws of physics, the GTR probably doesn't weigh significantly more than the 911 turbo's 3500 curb weight either.  If Nissan has somehow managed to make a 4000 pound sub 500hp car run as fast as a 911 turbo on the Ring, then BMW better start taking notes on how they screwed up so bad with the M5.

[Lazerous]

Yeah, but the Evo is also based on a car that costs half as much.?

We have a Lancer in Jordan and that thing is the shit! it was so funny driving it around and pulling the handbrake going downhill  Anybody know a rough estimate of this things cost? I want it!

[the Teuton]

We have a Lancer in Jordan and that thing is the shit! it was so funny driving it around and pulling the handbrake going downhill  Anybody know a rough estimate of this things cost? I want it!

Like a Lancer Evo?  FQ320?  FQ400?  We have the normal Evo in America, minus a few features.  I'm confused.

[Lazerous]

Like a Lancer Evo?? FQ320?? FQ400?? We have the normal Evo in America, minus a few features.? I'm confused.

lol, no, trust me, if it was an evo I would have mentioned that. It's your average basic Lancer? Like I said, that little thing is hilarious to drive. It's so unbelievably weak. It feels light though, maybe if I put a turbo in it....

[NomisR]

I'm pretty sure there'll be a lot of shared parts in the GTR to keep the thing affordable.  Otherwise, this car will definately cost at least the price of what the NSX was if it has it's own dedicated platform with a lot of light weight stuff.  You have to remember, the old Skyline GTR was not that much cheaper than the NSX.

[the Teuton]

lol, no, trust me, if it was an evo I would have mentioned that. It's your average basic Lancer  Like I said, that little thing is hilarious to drive. It's so unbelievably weak. It feels light though, maybe if I put a turbo in it....

The new lancer starts at $13,990.  Are we talking Mitsubishi Mirage age?

[Lazerous]

The new lancer starts at $13,990.? Are we talking Mitsubishi Mirage age?

The Lancer we have is either an 02 or 03 model. 2L I4 and I think 130hp.

[the Teuton]

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=205716696&dealer_id=581222&car_year=2002&model=LANCERMITS&num_records=25&make2=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MIT&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=44720&advanced=&end_year=2002&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=15

Someone is actually trying to sell an '02 for $13k on this site.  It's a Mitsubishi -- not a Honda.

[SVT_Power]

it says $6,500?

[the Teuton]

it says $6,500?

I know.  I went with a "sensible" example.  This is a more realistic price for these cars.

[Lazerous]

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=205716696&dealer_id=581222&car_year=2002&model=LANCERMITS&num_records=25&make2=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MIT&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=44720&advanced=&end_year=2002&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=15

Someone is actually trying to sell an '02 for $13k on this site.? It's a Mitsubishi -- not a Honda.

Mine is different, I guess newer, because it has a big red mitsubishi emblem in the center of the grill. It does not have that whole silver thong emblem thing going on.

[the Teuton]

Mine is different, I guess newer, because it has a big red mitsubishi emblem in the center of the grill. It does not have that whole silver thong emblem thing going on.

This is my last good guess.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=207339911&dealer_id=54477189&car_year=2006&model=LANCERMITS&num_records=25&make2=&start_year=1997&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=25&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MIT&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=44720&advanced=&end_year=2006&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=19

You live in Jordan, too?

[Lazerous]

This is my last good guess.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=207339911&dealer_id=54477189&car_year=2006&model=LANCERMITS&num_records=25&make2=&start_year=1997&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=25&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MIT&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=44720&advanced=&end_year=2006&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=19

You live in Jordan, too?

You phail once again! It looks like the one with the thong emblem, except it has the same emblem as this one that you just posted, but instead of silver it's red :P

No I don't live in Jordan. I was born there, moved to the states at the age of 1, and now I live in Florida. I just go visit Jordan in the summer.

[Lazerous]

Oh, what do you mean by "too"? Is there somebody on this board that lives there?

[the Teuton]

Oh, what do you mean by "too"? Is there somebody on this board that lives there?

I meant that you lived in Jordan as well as the United States?

[Lazerous]

I meant that you lived in Jordan as well as the United States?

Oh :P

Nope, I just go there for the summer, rest of the time i'm in the good ol' sunshine state (my ass, it's raining outside right now).

[TheIntrepid]

The new lancer starts at $13,990.  Are we talking Mitsubishi Mirage age?

Is it like the Lancer they have in India?




Our North American Lancer is called the Lancer Cedia there.