This weekend our traffic enforcement

[rohan]

The fact that tickets can and do increase revenue?

On daily patrols yes- on special patrols like we did this weekend it actually cost us money- which was my point of this thread.    Even if I ddidnt' make it clear enough that was my poin.t

[rohan]

In your estimation, what percentage of accidents are actually caused by speeding, as opposed to being caused possibly by other factors, and made worse by speeding?

What is your general philosophy as to where speed limits should be set?? On a highway in good condition with reasonable traffic conditions, what do you consider a safe speed to be?

I know you didn't ask me but I don't think that most crashes are caused by speeding- but I do think most accidents maybe 80% have speeing as a major contributing factor- like you said in another post speeing definately makes the crashes worse.   I also think that the higher the speed the less likely most driver are going to be able to make the right moves to avoid the crash.

[rohan]

That's very unsafe, whether caused by law enforcement, or left lane campers.

Lack of lane discipline is a major hazard on the roads, in my opinion.? It forces drivers who would otherwise stay in one lane to constantly switch lanes to get around drivers who are in the passing lane but not passing.

It's pretty safe when the police do it because most people wont' do anything stupid to get around the police- plus it's just bucket fulls of fun to do!   

[rohan]

My South Carolina license has been suspended for several months (and for the second time) because I cancelled the insurance on a car that I sold.
It doesn't bother me a bit, though, because I have a perfectly valid Maine license.?

If you drive into Michigan (which I know isn't real likely)  or the surrounding states and get stopped you will get arrested and locked up for "operating without a valid license" because one state suspended you.  If you are suspended most states don't recognize your valid license.  Sorry man- I don't make the rules.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Agreeing with the law doesn't make you atroll- it makes you a preson who likes the laws.  Stop calling names please.

He is not a troll simply because he agrees with the law.

Quothe Wikipedia:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.


"the nameless one" comes to a car enthusiast forum and preaches speedlimits. He uses the same arguments time and again, while dismissing anybody who disagrees as a speed-crazy lunatic that has no concern for anyone's safety. He is a troll.

[rohan]

He is not a troll simply because he agrees with the law.

Quothe Wikipedia:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.


"the nameless one" comes to a car enthusiast forum and preaches speedlimits. He uses the same arguments time and again, while dismissing anybody who disagrees as a speed-crazy lunatic that has no concern for anyone's safety. He is a troll.

Don't roll your eyes at me- I'm not the one acting childish calling names.    Even if he is a troll- have some maturity man!  Let it go- it's just a forum!   

[Eye of the Tiger]

If you drive into Michigan (which I know isn't real likely)  or the surrounding states and get stopped you will get arrested and locked up for "operating without a valid license" because one state suspended you.  If you are suspended most states don't recognize your valid license.  Sorry man- I don't make the rules.

My SC license was suspended (via a letter in the mail) several months after I had traded it in for my Maine license.
If they don't like it, they can kiss my a$$.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Don't roll your eyes at me- I'm not the one acting childish calling names.    Even if he is a troll- have some maturity man!  Let it go- it's just a forum!   

It's not like I called him a stupid p00p head butt licker! I was just stating a fact. 

[rohan]

It's not like I called him a stupid p00p head butt licker! I was just stating a fact.?

Oh- fact - that's entirely different.   

[rohan]

My SC license was suspended (via a letter in the mail) several months after I had traded it in for my Maine license.
If they don't like it, they can kiss my a$$.

Yup- I'm sure that attitude will do well for you if you ever do happen to get stopped around here.   :P

[Eye of the Tiger]

Oh- fact - that's entirely different.   

Ok... it's more like a hypothesis.
I can say that, because in two different classes I had today, both professors spent a good ten minutes explaining the difference between a hypothesis and a theory.

Yup- I'm sure that attitude will do well for you if you ever do happen to get stopped around here.   :P

You guys can't catch me! 

[rohan]

Ok... it's more like a hypothesis.
I can say that, because in two different classes I had today, both professors spent a good ten minutes explaining the difference between a hypothesis and a theory.

You guys can't catch me!?

Classes?  I never went to no college!   

And with that attitude who would want to catch you?

[TBR]

Gotta agree with you here- I love speeding- even as a police officer-  but I know that my speed can easily cause me to crash because of outdriving my ca4rs limits.  People like James refuse to acknowledge that because it undermines their arguments that we should be allowed to drive any speed we want.   Fact is when officers write in that speeding was a contributing factore on traffic crash resports it's because we have several ways to determine the vehicles speeds vs. known stopping distances of specific cars.  It's easy to determine and even James "50+ years " of traffic whatever he said- you know- the one he's been involved with since he was 12.    knows it's true.  Examples are crush factors- skid lengths vs. friction vs. weather conditions vs. road material and conditions etc.    He likes to taught science but doesn't want to actually use it.

You can outdrive your car's limits at 30.

[Champ]

Rohan - two weeks ago we went to Detroit from MN via 94 to the Saab Owner's Convention, and a lot of the staties that were setup under bridges had something on their hood like a flip up sign... Do you know what that is / what it says?  We could never read it.

[Soup DeVille]

Rohan - two weeks ago we went to Detroit from MN via 94 to the Saab Owner's Convention, and a lot of the staties that were setup under bridges had something on their hood like a flip up sign... Do you know what that is / what it says?? We could never read it.

It says "stop Police" That and the gumball are something of a tradition among the MSP.

[rohan]

It says "stop Police" That and the gumball are something of a tradition among the MSP.

It also says either state police or Michigan state police.? It was used for side stops- something we don't do anymore- they would pull up alongside a car they wanted stopped and turn on the light inside that unit and the car would pull over.? It's from before there were overhead lights- and it's not functional for todays times because pulling alongside someone you are trying to stop is just dangerous.? The modern ones still light up and some guys still use them in certain situations so people know its the police- but not very often and not very many do it- when they pull into driveways in the middle of the night and things like that.

And the gumball is about to be a thing of the past too- they are getting ready to start using newer style light bars because they can't get much in the way of parts for the old lights anymore.  But it's still the brightest most visible light out there- you can see it for miles.

MSP is full of traditions that get cars stolen and guys killed like no cages- wearing ties that sometimes cause guys to overheat- and up until about 10 years ago they were carrying cross draw holsters- and mandatory dress hats in all weather conditions- poor traffic stop tatics-? not calling out traffic stops through dispatch - and a few others.

[rohan]

You can outdrive your car's limits at 30.

right- part of the speed vs. weather vs. road conditions ...... I remarkde on.

[Soup DeVille]

It also says either state police or Michigan state police.? It was used for side stops- something we don't do anymore- they would pull up alongside a car they wanted stopped and turn on the light inside that unit and the car would pull over.? It's from before there were overhead lights- and it's not functional for todays times because pulling alongside someone you are trying to stop is just dangerous.? The modern ones still light up and some guys still use them in certain situations so people know its the police- but not very often and not very many do it- when they pull into driveways in the middle of the night and things like that.

And the gumball is about to be a thing of the past too- they are getting ready to start using newer style light bars because they can't get much in the way of parts for the old lights anymore.? But it's still the brightest most visible light out there- you can see it for miles.

MSP is full of traditions that get cars stolen and guys killed like no cages- wearing ties that sometimes cause guys to overheat- and up until about 10 years ago they were carrying cross draw holsters- and mandatory dress hats in all weather conditions- poor traffic stop tatics-? not calling out traffic stops through dispatch - and a few others.

I'll take your word for all that, but I still will regret the demise of the gumballs. They new strobe flashing, three tier light combos can sometimes nearly blind you on a dark road as you drive past them, the gumballs are big, bright, and easy to locate and identify. With some of the modern combinations, its hard to tell even how many cars are on the side of the road, or how far they or it is off the travel lanes.

[rohan]

I'll take your word for all that, but I still will regret the demise of the gumballs. They new strobe flashing, three tier light combos can sometimes nearly blind you on a dark road as you drive past them, the gumballs are big, bright, and easy to locate and identify. With some of the modern combinations, its hard to tell even how many cars are on the side of the road, or how far they or it is off the travel lanes.

Unity stopped making that light 3-4 years ago, and state shop at the HQ has been scavenging parts ever since then.? And the hole point of the emergency lights being bright is to warn you tha tsomething si up there and to slow down.? ?? ? If you can't see well because of them maybe you better do just that!!!!!!!? :P

Adn- they are using 100,000 cp aircraft landing lights in those bubbles and that makes them even more bright.

[Soup DeVille]

Unity stopped making that light 3-4 years ago, and state shop at the HQ has been scavenging parts ever since then.? And the hole point of the emergency lights being bright is to warn you tha tsomething si up there and to slow down.? ?? ? If you can't see well because of them maybe you better do just that!!!!!!!? :P

There's bright and there's too bright, and I think some of them are too bright. Also some of the patterns are distracting with all the randomly flashing strobes. The gumball is quite bright, but also it has a predictable repateing pattern, doesn't seem to bounce all over the place, and being red doesn't effect your night vision as much as blue does.

My eyesight is quite good, and its not like i've ever found any cop car's lights bright or distracting enough to be dangerous, but it's just that I think the gumballs are a safer and more effective type of emergency light.

[rohan]

I agree- I prefer the old style rotators with reflective mirror lenses than the led's their using now.? I don't like those and I like the strobes but not as much as the rotators.? And having spent more than a? decade and a half working on the side of the freeway- there is no such thing as too bright when it comes to warning lights- bad weather in Michigan comes and goes as fast as can be especially in winter.

[Soup DeVille]

I agree- I prefer the old style rotators with reflective mirror lenses than the led's their using now.? I don't like those and I like the strobes but not as much as the rotators.? And having spent more than a? decade and a half working on the side of the freeway- there is no such thing as too bright when it comes to warning lights- bad weather in Michigan comes and goes as fast as can be especially in winter.

You're right about the weather, but I think there's a bit of a problem with the way most emergency lights are setup.

For one, they all tend to use the same pattern day or night. Ultra bright may be necessary during the day, but can be blinding at night, and you want people to still be able to see the road ahead of them as well as the car on the side of the road.

A lot of what I see about the effectiveness of the newer lights claims things like "readily visible at 5000 ft." Well, that's all well and good; but seeing something 5000 ft away and seeinfg where something is, what it is, and whether or not its moving at 1000 ft may be more important.

[rohan]

I'm not attacking you here- but it's not your butt out there it's ours.  If it's too bright-


S    L    O    W            D    O    W    N



It'll help you to see what;'s on the road ahead of you. 

[Soup DeVille]

I'm not attacking you here- but it's not your butt out there it's ours.? If it's too bright-


S? ? L? ? O? ? W? ? ? ? ? ? D? ? O? ? W? ? N



It'll help you to see what;'s on the road ahead of you.?

Trust me, I don't want to rear end you almost as badly as you don't want me to.

All I'm saying is that some lights seem to be more effective and safer than others, and that the old school gumballs seem to me to be the best ones I regularly see.

[Champ]

Thanks for the clear-up!  We couldn't figure out what they said for the life of us.

[James Young]

the nameless one writes:

Interstate of standard Interstate design, dry pavement, clear lines of sight, non-urban environment etc? I would say probably 80-85 MPH would still be safe enough. I wouldn't change state, county  or local roads at all from what they are posted though.

Yet, 85 mph is anywhere from 10 mph to 30 mph faster than present limits and that?s the very behavior that enforcement focuses on.  You admit the speeds actually being driven are safe and then turn around and cite somebody for them.  Kind of hypocritical, wouldn?t you say?

Of course, there are no such highways anywhere near Ithaca.

Rohan writes:

Gotta agree with you here- I love speeding- even as a police officer-  but I know that my speed can easily cause me to crash because of outdriving my ca4rs limits.  People like James refuse to acknowledge that because it undermines their arguments that we should be allowed to drive any speed we want.

Recognition that cars and drivers have limits hardly undermines my argument that speed limits are unnecessary, counterproductive, costly and widely abused by enforcement because that very assumption is built into the reasoning behind engineering limits such as the 85th percentile for urban roadways and the newly-emerging 95th percentile on rural and interstate-grade roadways. 

Nearly every driver on the planet acts in his own self interest and self preservation, despite continuing claims from enforcement that a majority of them are doing stupid, self-destructive things.   The very few drivers who actually are self-destructive are not the real target of most enforcement effort. 

The problem is that drivers? limits and modern vehicle limits exceed the posted limits by such a large margin that the posted limits have become meaningless.  The fact is that very few drivers exceed their vehicles? capabilities.  Crashes result far more often from failures to pay attention ? either through chemical impairment; distractions such as passengers, exogenous influences and cell phones; or sleep deprivation (huge issue) ? than from speed too fast for conditions.

Thus, it is you who has failed to incorporate some critical changes in conditions into your analysis because they undermine your argument.

Fact is when officers write in that speeding was a contributing factore on traffic crash resports it's because we have several ways to determine the vehicles speeds vs. known stopping distances of specific cars.  It's easy to determine and even James "50+ years " of traffic whatever he said- you know- the one he's been involved with since he was 12.     knows it's true.  Examples are crush factors- skid lengths vs. friction vs. weather conditions vs. road material and conditions etc.    He likes to taught science but doesn't want to actually use it.

No, the really sad truth is that the typical officer who writes the report of anything less than a fatality crash does not generally have any knowledge of crush factors, skid distances, adhesion coefficients, crumple zones of particular cars, etc.  They write reports.  Period.  They check off boxes on a standardized form.  Their ?investigation? is limited in scope and in depth.

There are a few qualified accident reconstructionists out there and they have some cool new tools with PC programs that help them with the calculations.  Hats off to them.

On daily patrols yes- on special patrols like we did this weekend it actually cost us money- which was my point of this thread.    Even if I ddidnt' make it clear enough that was my poin.t

I don?t believe that for a minute.  I?ve already done the math for you.  And the feds paid for a good chunk of your time.  And I also don?t believe that such campaigns are for anything more elegant or worthwhile than a good PR pitch to the public to make them think that you?re really doing something.

I know you didn't ask me but I don't think that most crashes are caused by speeding- but I do think most accidents maybe 80% have speeing as a major contributing factor- like you said in another post speeing definately makes the crashes worse.   I also think that the higher the speed the less likely most driver are going to be able to make the right moves to avoid the crash.

Speed is a factor in everything having to do with vehicles because that is their purpose:  to elevate the speed at which man can travel.   Even according to your own data, speed too fast for conditions is but a paltry contributor to crashes.  And, of course, even that is not what enforcement actually looks for, instead taking the low-hanging fruit of ?speeders,? who happen to exceed an arbitrary number.

It's pretty safe when the police do it because most people wont' do anything stupid to get around the police- plus it's just bucket fulls of fun to do!

That?s just chickensh!t.  Then you wonder why the public disrespects you so much.

[rohan]

Recognition that cars and drivers have limits hardly undermines my argument that speed limits are unnecessary, counterproductive, costly and widely abused by enforcement because that very assumption is built into the reasoning behind engineering limits such as the 85th percentile for urban roadways and the newly-emerging 95th percentile on rural and interstate-grade roadways.?

Do you have a link to a valid source for this?? ?Somehting like a government inquiry showing what you claim?

Nearly every driver on the planet acts in his own self interest and self preservation, despite continuing claims from enforcement that a majority of them are doing stupid, self-destructive things.? ?The very few drivers who actually are self-destructive are not the real target of most enforcement effort.?

Right- like driving well over 100 mph on secondary roads- drag racing- drifting on public roads- doing wheelies on motorcycles at well over speedlimits- driving drunk- should I go on?? Your point here is BS because we do target those very things or at the very least take action wehen found.

Thus, it is you who has failed to incorporate some critical changes in conditions into your analysis because they undermine your argument.

More blah blah blah from the blah blah blah king.? Some sort of proof?

No, the really sad truth is that the typical officer who writes the report of anything less than a fatality crash does not generally have any knowledge of crush factors, skid distances, adhesion coefficients, crumple zones of particular cars, etc.? They write reports.? Period.? They check off boxes on a standardized form.? Their ?investigation? is limited in scope and in depth.

? Link ?? Can you proove this or is it more of your blatant lies?

There are a few qualified accident reconstructionists out there and they have some cool new tools with PC programs that help them with the calculations.? Hats off to them.

Hey genius- there are WAAAYYY more than a few- and you don't need to use computers for it- all it takes is a paper- pencil- eraser- calculator- ruler- and book with some basic figures and information.

I don?t believe that for a minute.? I?ve already done the math for you.? And the feds paid for a good chunk of your time.? And I also don?t believe that such campaigns are for anything more elegant or worthwhile than a good PR pitch to the public to make them think that you?re really doing something.

? ?Really?? Did you come up with $33,801.60 dollars?? Because that's what it cost to put? guys out for 8 shifts at 8 hours at $25.15 X 3.5.? We received exactly $$15,000 from the federal government.? And considering our #1 request this last summer was for more traffic enforcement from our tax paying citizens - they got exactly what they wanted.

Speed is a factor in everything having to do with vehicles because that is their purpose:? to elevate the speed at which man can travel.? ?Even according to your own data, speed too fast for conditions is but a paltry contributor to crashes.? And, of course, even that is not what enforcement actually looks for, instead taking the low-hanging fruit of ?speeders,? who happen to exceed an arbitrary number.

That's because "speed too fast for conditions is just about only written when the roads are icy/snowy/drifted and regular speed enforcement is almost impossible.?

That?s just chickensh!t.? Then you wonder why the public disrespects you so much.

Oh well- and frankly- I don't care if the public trusts me or not.? That's not my job and it's never going to be- I'm paid to handle officers and the occasional report- period.? Most officers I know also don't care either- why- it's not our job to care it's our job to enforce the law.? Not write law- not change law- not argue law- not argue a laws merits- ENFORCEMENT.

And by the way- hows that 50+ years of experience in this field from the time you were 12 treatin ya?? ?

[Soup DeVille]

Does it seem reasonable to you though to think that the more the public trusts the law enforcement establishment as a whole, the easier your job will be?

[rohan]

Does it seem reasonable to you though to think that the more the public trusts the law enforcement establishment as a whole, the easier your job will be?

It does- but as a patrol officer- thats not my job.? My job is to go out a nd attempt to locate-deter-and stop crime.? Not to mention all the other 500million redundant tasks we have to do.? Whether or not the public trusts me is by far my least concern- and I don't trust one of them so why should I really care?

[Soup DeVille]

It does- but as a patrol officer- thats not my job.? My job is to go out a nd attempt to locate-deter-and stop crime.? Not to mention all the other 500million redundant tasks we have to do.? Whether or not the public trusts me is by far my least concern- and I don't trust one of them so why should I really care?

I would think that to a certain extent public relations- non-criminal public at least (they do exist)- is at least some part of every officer's job.