Argument regarding TL/ G35

[CALL_911]

I would have to disagree.  BMWs have a special quality about them that is missing in many cars claiming to be sports sedan.  Go drive a 335i back to back with a G35S and tell me you still have that opinion...

See, he wanted to indirectly attack me, with another of his famous dumbass posts, that have no point.

[CALL_911]

Exactly.  In fact, some of the smaller engined BMWs (like a 320i) could be considered a BETTER sports sedans than their larger engined cousins (like a 335i) because of their lighter weight.

Yeah, I think the E90 320si was the best sports sedan in the lineup. Unfortunately, it wouldn't have sold over here, because if it's "lack" in power. But it was limited, because it was a homologation.

[TheIntrepid]

Ok CALL_911 maybe you don't get the whole sig thing.  Your's first bogged my PC down, now it's just ginormous.

[565]

You can always feel FWD vs RWD even in every day situations. A tiny amount of torque steer is present even if the tires don't break traction and under gentle acceleration.  When you accelerate with the wheel turned in a FWD car you can feel a slight change in the steering effort as power is applied (even very gently).  I can feel this everytime I drive a FWD car when I turn out of a driveway or make a turn at the light.  I guess I'm very sensitive to this feeling because I do 99% of my driving in RWD cars. 

It's not a huge detractor from the driving experience, but it's still definitely an easy way to tell which wheels are driving the front wheels.  If you blind folded me a put me behind the wheel of a FWD car and asked me to drive around at normal speeds, it would be a piece of cake to feel that it's FWD.

[Raghavan]

You can always feel FWD vs RWD even in every day situations. A tiny amount of torque steer is present even if the tires don't break traction and under gentle acceleration.  When you accelerate with the wheel turned in a FWD car you can feel a slight change in the steering effort as power is applied (even very gently).  I can feel this everytime I drive a FWD car when I turn out of a driveway or make a turn at the light.  I guess I'm very sensitive to this feeling because I do 99% of my driving in RWD cars. 

It's not a huge detractor from the driving experience, but it's still definitely an easy way to tell which wheels are driving the front wheels.  If you blind folded me a put me behind the wheel of a FWD car and asked me to drive around at normal speeds, it would be a piece of cake to feel that it's FWD.

You wouldn't be able to tell if it was FWD because you would've crashed into the nearest object.

[565]

You wouldn't be able to tell if it was FWD because you would've crashed into the nearest object.

Good call.

[Vinsanity]

I would have to disagree.  BMWs have a special quality about them that is missing in many cars claiming to be sports sedan.  Go drive a 335i back to back with a G35S and tell me you still have that opinion...

Meh. I don't know if I buy the idea of something intangible making a car so great as to be worshipped. Don't get me wrong -- I appreciate things like steering feedback, and suspension and chassis tuning, but those are tangible subjective qualities that can be identified and compared. Are these things what make the 335 a better sport sedan than the G35? If so, when why not say so?

[ifcar]

A car is more than the sum of its components. Cars do feel a certain way that generally can't be numerically tallied to determine a victor.

[CALL_911]

You wouldn't be able to tell if it was FWD because you would've crashed into the nearest object.

[CALL_911]

My idea of a perfect sports sedan. Then again, because I have a thing for straight-line speed, the 335i does fine for me. But this is probably more fun in the twisties, and also more involving. I think I'd take this over the 335i.

[GoCougs]

For 6/10s driving and below, to me the TL feels like the better all around vehicle - better attention to design, detail, materials and overall refinement, and still very good performance. I've never been in either above 6/10s, so perhaps the G35 really pulls ahead.

The only aspect of the G35 that could sway me over the TL is AWD. Even with the TL's plebian forebearer, the 244hp V6 Accord, I'm constantly into traction control at anymore than 1/3 throttle from standstill on Seattle's perpetually wet roads.

[Colonel Cadillac]

For 6/10s driving and below, to me the TL feels like the better all around vehicle - better attention to design, detail, materials and overall refinement, and still very good performance. I've never been in either above 6/10s, so perhaps the G35 really pulls ahead.

The only aspect of the G35 that could sway me over the TL is AWD. Even with the TL's plebian forebearer, the 244hp V6 Accord, I'm constantly into traction control at anymore than 1/3 throttle from standstill on Seattle's perpetually wet roads.

Just get a TSX and call it a day.

[Colonel Cadillac]

My idea of a perfect sports sedan. Then again, because I have a thing for straight-line speed, the 335i does fine for me. But this is probably more fun in the twisties, and also more involving. I think I'd take this over the 335i.

What is the car? The pic doesn't work...

[CALL_911]

What is the car? The pic doesn't work...

oops. BMW 320si. It was a homologation special for the WTCC car.

[Vinsanity]

Just get a TSX and call it a day.

Sorry, but the TSX just didn't impress me as much as the TL. The TL felt like more of a complete package, and not just because of the beefier engine. I know the TSX is supposed to handle better, but it felt to me like the TL cornered flatter and gripped better (although I know that the TL I had wore much better tires than the TSX I test drove). I dunno, the TSX just felt like the TL's little "runt" brother, lol

[CJ]

I know that if you get on the gas in the Accord a little to quickly, you're going to have wheelspin.  It's DBW.

[Soup DeVille]

For 6/10s driving and below, to me the TL feels like the better all around vehicle - better attention to design, detail, materials and overall refinement, and still very good performance. I've never been in either above 6/10s, so perhaps the G35 really pulls ahead.

The only aspect of the G35 that could sway me over the TL is AWD. Even with the TL's plebian forebearer, the 244hp V6 Accord, I'm constantly into traction control at anymore than 1/3 throttle from standstill on Seattle's perpetually wet roads.

If driving at 6/10ths is why people buy cars, why don't we cut the power output of them all by 40%?

[LonghornTX]

Meh. I don't know if I buy the idea of something intangible making a car so great as to be worshipped. Don't get me wrong -- I appreciate things like steering feedback, and suspension and chassis tuning, but those are tangible subjective qualities that can be identified and compared. Are these things what make the 335 a better sport sedan than the G35? If so, when why not say so?

Most reviews do indeed say so; I just figured I wouldn't repeat something that has already been repeated pretty much ad nausiem.  Other things, though, like driving position, location of controls, and machine interaction are much less tangible and are best understood by firsthand experience.  Like ifcar, a car is much more than its individual components.

[ifcar]

If driving at 6/10ths is why people buy cars, why don't we cut the power output of them all by 40%?

Most cars could stand to lose a lot of power without most owners noticing.

But you have 6/10 of more power or better handling is going to be higher than 6/10 of the lesser car.

[TheIntrepid]

I know that if you get on the gas in the Accord a little to quickly, you're going to have wheelspin.  It's DBW.

That's every car. Hell I can even get a bit of wheelspin on the 'r0lla, and it barely has three horsepower and I doubt that DBW was invented when this car was made.

The Trep will spin and spin up until 40km/h or so, if you stay down.

[r0tor]

If driving at 6/10ths is why people buy cars, why don't we cut the power output of them all by 40%?

that would be why the majority of mustags are the V6 version...

[565]

Other things, though, like driving position, location of controls, and machine interaction are much less tangible and are best understood by firsthand experience.

Right, first hand experience is what matters.  Don't let the magazines tell you what you should feel or not feel or what you should perfer or not perfer.  What matters the most is your own subjective opinion when test driving the car. I'm sure you've driven the 3 series and the G35 and perfer the 3 series, while I've driven the 3 series and the G35 and much perfer the G35.  It's a matter of different strokes for different folks and there is no right or wrong decision here.  Whether the value of the whole is greater than the sum of the components is a totally subjective feeling.  This is something that most BMW fans fail to understand.  Sure you can claim that the BMW has some intangible charisma that it's competitors don't have and point to magazines as "proof."  But don't expect everyone to simply blindly agree, because some of us will see that the emperor is indeed stark naked.

[CJ]

That's every car. Hell I can even get a bit of wheelspin on the 'r0lla, and it barely has three horsepower and I doubt that DBW was invented when this car was made.

The Trep will spin and spin up until 40km/h or so, if you stay down.

I know that.  I'm just saying.  The Accord'll probably do the same thing if you turn the traction control off and just nail the throttle to the ground.  Thing is, the Accord's throttle has a bit of a delay.  Not long, but it's noticeable.

[Soup DeVille]

Most cars could stand to lose a lot of power without most owners noticing.

But you have 6/10 of more power or better handling is going to be higher than 6/10 of the lesser car.

Most owners would draw blank stares when you say things like "torque steer" or "lift throttle oversteer" or "polar moment of inertia."

That doesn't mean they're not important, or that they can't make a difference in how a car behaves or the overall driving experience.

However, I don't care a lot about any of those things at 6/10ths, yet they can become decisive parts of a vehicle's caliber when the going gets a little more spirited.

[Morris Minor]

So what are the basic ingredients for a sporting sedan? In my own purely subjective and totally-biased opinion...

• Compact dimensions
• Low weight
• More or less even front-rear weight distribution
• Minimal mass outside the wheelbase
• Minimal unsprung weight
• Rear-wheel drive
• Front engine
• Fully-independent suspension - tuning biased towards handling
• A powerful engine, but overly-so
• Superb braking system
• Sufficient space for passengers - but overall bias is towards the driver

[sportyaccordy]

So what are the basic ingredients for a sporting sedan? In my own purely subjective and totally-biased opinion...

• Compact dimensions
• Low weight
• More or less even front-rear weight distribution
• Minimal mass outside the wheelbase
• Minimal unsprung weight
• Rear-wheel drive
• Front engine
• Fully-independent suspension - tuning biased towards handling
• A powerful engine, but overly-so
• Superb braking system
• Sufficient space for passengers - but overall bias is towards the driver

I think that about sums it up. For me, as long as it's kind of light, with a firm suspension, good steering feel, brakes and a little more than adequate power... oh and a nice engine note... it will be fun to drive. FWD, RWD, Japanese, German, doesn't really matter if it doesn't have those things.

[Morris Minor]

I think that about sums it up. For me, as long as it's kind of light, with a firm suspension, good steering feel, brakes and a little more than adequate power... oh and a nice engine note... it will be fun to drive. FWD, RWD, Japanese, German, doesn't really matter if it doesn't have those things.

Yeah, there are many intangibles that are difficult to define. But I do feel that loading a car up with too many extras can detract from "sportiness." Of course "sportiness" means different things to different people. It's a very subjective thing.

[LonghornTX]

Right, first hand experience is what matters.  Don't let the magazines tell you what you should feel or not feel or what you should perfer or not perfer.  What matters the most is your own subjective opinion when test driving the car. I'm sure you've driven the 3 series and the G35 and perfer the 3 series, while I've driven the 3 series and the G35 and much perfer the G35.  It's a matter of different strokes for different folks and there is no right or wrong decision here.  Whether the value of the whole is greater than the sum of the components is a totally subjective feeling.  This is something that most BMW fans fail to understand.  Sure you can claim that the BMW has some intangible charisma that it's competitors don't have and point to magazines as "proof."  But don't expect everyone to simply blindly agree, because some of us will see that the emperor is indeed stark naked.

For sure, some people prefer the Infiniti based on sheer preference alone and I can definitely see where they are coming from.  Hell, we have a E46, E34 (soon to be gone for the mustang), and an M35, so they definitely are good cars in my opinion.

But, having worked in an Infiniti sales department, I can tell you that the great majority of people who bought G35s and G37s (over their BMW competitors) did so because they felt they were a better value, not a better car to drive.  Furthermore, when you own the products from the two brands (and thus use them regularly), you can tell where the extra money for the BMW goes.  The little things, like control placement and other ergonomic quirks are done right on the BMW where as sometimes controls are awkwardly placed on the Infinitis (the M35 in particular is pretty bad about this).  Then, when you work on the cars, you can see the difference in quality of the individual components, where those extra dollars went and where they were saved.  The driving experience is comparable in the G35 to the E90/E92, but less rewarding IMO.  The engine sounds rough when revved (or maybe just not as silky smooth as an I6), the steering is too light, and the gear change is a bit clumsy with an awkward clutch.  These complaints have definitely improved a great deal between the first and second generations so I have no doubt that the next generation could very well become the next "BMW". 

This is of course my opinion, but I do feel that I have spent more than enough time around the two brands to come to that conclusion.  Your experience may differ (as the labels often say) and I surely do not look down on anyone that might like Infiniti over BMW as I know that everyone's preferences are different.

[Raza]

What year/engine/transmission is your E34?

[LonghornTX]

1990/M20/4AT.

Probably the worst combo available in the states...

But, I have made in handle pretty good with the addition of some choice upgrades.