Honda releases details about next Civic's engine

[giant_mtb]

Not enough market for something with 110 horsepower.

The Prius is doing pretty good and it probably has less power than that.

Actually I think the Prius has more then that when the engine and motors are combined, IIRC.  And when someone buys a hybrid like the Prius they aren't expecting a fun-to-drive vehicle like lots of consumers hope for when they purchase a Civic.

[giant_mtb]

Yeah...the gas engine has 76 HP, and the motor has 67 HP.  That makes 143 horsepower.  

[ifcar]

Not enough market for something with 110 horsepower.

The Prius is doing pretty good and it probably has less power than that.

The Prius is a gas-electric hybrid, appealing to consumers for entirely different reasons. A closer comparison would be the 00-04 Focus LX, which had a highly-criticized 110-hp motor.

[TBR]

Not enough market for something with 110 horsepower.

The Prius is doing pretty good and it probably has less power than that.

The Prius is a gas-electric hybrid, appealing to consumers for entirely different reasons. A closer comparison would be the 00-04 Focus LX, which had a highly-criticized 110-hp motor.

The reason it supposedly appeals to customers is because of its good fuel economy (of course we all know that the truth is much different), the same reason a 110hp Focus would appeal to customers.  

[ifcar]

A 110-hp Focus simply would not get close to the fuel economy of the Prius. Comparing the two is ridiculous.

[TBR]

A 110-hp Focus simply would not get close to the fuel economy of the Prius. Comparing the two is ridiculous.

The Prius gets a real world 45mpg or so, right? A 110hp Focus would likely get 40mpg or so for at least $7500 less.  

[ifcar]

40 real-world? Not likely. A current 136-hp Focus manual only gets 29 mpg by the EPA, so probably 25 in real world. I highly doubt that mileage would improve by 15 mpg from the powertrain you proposed.

[ifcar]

BTW, people who want Prius-level fuel economy for $7,500 less already have an option. CR got 38 mpg from their test Echo, and 44 from their test Prius.

[TBR]

40 real-world? Not likely. A current 136-hp Focus manual only gets 29 mpg by the EPA, so probably 25 in real world. I highly doubt that mileage would improve by 15 mpg from the powertrain you proposed.

29 mpg?!? That sucks, which is fine since it is wrong. A 2.0l Focus (which I assume is the 136hp variant) gets 26/35 mpg and is more likely to attain its ratings than a hybrid is.  

[ifcar]

40 real-world? Not likely. A current 136-hp Focus manual only gets 29 mpg by the EPA, so probably 25 in real world. I highly doubt that mileage would improve by 15 mpg from the powertrain you proposed.

29 mpg?!? That sucks, which is fine since it is wrong. A 2.0l Focus (which I assume is the 136hp variant) gets 26/35 mpg and is more likely to attain its ratings than a hybrid is.

Can't post a link, but go to fueleconomy.gov, "Find A Car" the Focus, and click on it. You'll see the following figures:

EPA Fuel Economy   
   
Fuel Type: Regular Gasoline
   
MPG (city): 26
        
MPG (highway): 35
        
MPG (combined): 29


And while it's more likely to achieve that rating than a Hybrid is, this discussion was already focusing in on the Prius's lowest real-world measurement (CR's 44 mpg). As I said before, the engine modifications you suggested will not boost the Focus's EPA mileage by 16 mpg, much less boost its real-world mileage to 40 mpg.

[TBR]

First, I never implied that a 1.8l Focus would get the same mpg as a Prius, I said it would get within 5 mpg of the Prius. Second, a real world average for a 2.0l Focus would probably be 32 mpg, certainly not an unreasonable number. So, a smaller engine would only have to get another 7 mpg to be within 5 mpg of the Prius' real world average.  

[ifcar]

First, I never implied that a 1.8l Focus would get the same mpg as a Prius, I said it would get within 5 mpg of the Prius. Second, a real world average for a 2.0l Focus would probably be 32 mpg, certainly not an unreasonable number. So, a smaller engine would only have to get another 7 mpg to be within 5 mpg of the Prius' real world average.

So you consider "real-world mileage" above EPA for some cars, but 20 mpg below on others?

Even 7 mpg is extremely unlikely, the 11 required to get even the EPA mileage up to 40 mpg, and the 14-16 required to get more realistic mileage up to 40 mpg is simply impossible.

[TBR]

First, I never implied that a 1.8l Focus would get the same mpg as a Prius, I said it would get within 5 mpg of the Prius. Second, a real world average for a 2.0l Focus would probably be 32 mpg, certainly not an unreasonable number. So, a smaller engine would only have to get another 7 mpg to be within 5 mpg of the Prius' real world average.

So you consider "real-world mileage" above EPA for some cars, but 20 mpg below on others?

Even 7 mpg is extremely unlikely, the 11 required to get even the EPA mileage up to 40 mpg, and the 14-16 required to get more realistic mileage up to 40 mpg is simply impossible.

My mileage estimates are totally accurate. Most mags have gotten about 45 mpg for their long term Priuses (and they typically do drive them with a fairly light foot). As far as the 32 mpg number goes, almost no one drives an equal combination of city and highway, even city dwellers almost certainly put a lot more highway miles on their cars than city miles.  

[Raghavan]

Yeah...the gas engine has 76 HP, and the motor has 67 HP.  That makes 143 horsepower.

no... you just can't add the hp like that. i forget why, but that's why the prius has about ~100hp, not 143.

[TBR]

Yeah...the gas engine has 76 HP, and the motor has 67 HP.  That makes 143 horsepower.

no... you just can't add the hp like that. i forget why, but that's why the prius has about ~100hp, not 143.

They achieve their horsepower peaks at different times.  

[ifcar]

First, I never implied that a 1.8l Focus would get the same mpg as a Prius, I said it would get within 5 mpg of the Prius. Second, a real world average for a 2.0l Focus would probably be 32 mpg, certainly not an unreasonable number. So, a smaller engine would only have to get another 7 mpg to be within 5 mpg of the Prius' real world average.

So you consider "real-world mileage" above EPA for some cars, but 20 mpg below on others?

Even 7 mpg is extremely unlikely, the 11 required to get even the EPA mileage up to 40 mpg, and the 14-16 required to get more realistic mileage up to 40 mpg is simply impossible.

My mileage estimates are totally accurate. Most mags have gotten about 45 mpg for their long term Priuses (and they typically do drive them with a fairly light foot). As far as the 32 mpg number goes, almost no one drives an equal combination of city and highway, even city dwellers almost certainly put a lot more highway miles on their cars than city miles.

Fortunately, fueleconomy.gov has a new "user mpg" section. The average 05 Focus listed there was running an mpg average of 4 below EPA.  

[BMWDave]

Yeah...the gas engine has 76 HP, and the motor has 67 HP.? That makes 143 horsepower.

no... you just can't add the hp like that. i forget why, but that's why the prius has about ~100hp, not 143.

They achieve their horsepower peaks at different times.

Correct, its not as if you can just combine their outputs.

[TBR]

First, I never implied that a 1.8l Focus would get the same mpg as a Prius, I said it would get within 5 mpg of the Prius. Second, a real world average for a 2.0l Focus would probably be 32 mpg, certainly not an unreasonable number. So, a smaller engine would only have to get another 7 mpg to be within 5 mpg of the Prius' real world average.

So you consider "real-world mileage" above EPA for some cars, but 20 mpg below on others?

Even 7 mpg is extremely unlikely, the 11 required to get even the EPA mileage up to 40 mpg, and the 14-16 required to get more realistic mileage up to 40 mpg is simply impossible.

My mileage estimates are totally accurate. Most mags have gotten about 45 mpg for their long term Priuses (and they typically do drive them with a fairly light foot). As far as the 32 mpg number goes, almost no one drives an equal combination of city and highway, even city dwellers almost certainly put a lot more highway miles on their cars than city miles.

Fortunately, fueleconomy.gov has a new "user mpg" section. The average 05 Focus listed there was running an mpg average of 4 below EPA.

Oh really?
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?acti...77&browser=true

That says 30.5 mpg which is a lot closer to my 32 mpg number than it is to your 25 mpg number.  

[ifcar]

That's a 2004, with a different engine. The 2005s (based on 8 examples as well, not just two) were much lower in relation to the EPA figure.

[bobwill]

I think it's funny how a discussion about new Honda Civic engine turned into an argument about the Ford Focus versus the Toyota Prius. :)

I'll agree that a sub 2.0L focus, especially if Ford took some pains to lighten the vehicle would probably rival the civic in real world fuel economy.
I'm personally not sold on hybrids yet, but the Prius does seem to be getting better mileage figures now than it was at the beginning of the year in longterm testing.
I'd still take the Focus, simply because it would save me thousands of dollars, and still get roughly the same Air Pollution score.  80% of the benefits, 50% of the cost.

[TBR]

That's a 2004, with a different engine. The 2005s (based on 8 examples as well, not just two) were much lower in relation to the EPA figure.

The only 2005 they listed had an automatic tranismission.  

[ifcar]

It shouldn't make a difference whether the car has a manual or automatic to see whether it's above or below EPA. And they did have one 05 manual (wagon), and its mileage was basically equal to the EPA figure.

[TBR]

It shouldn't make a difference whether the car has a manual or automatic to see whether it's above or below EPA. And they did have one 05 manual (wagon), and its mileage was basically equal to the EPA figure.

You look at every compact car out there and the trend will be that the automatics will likely be a bit under the EPA ratings and the manuals will be a bit above, automatic cars with small engines have to be pushed a lot harder in city driving. And, wagons do weigh more and are likely to be carrying more weight in cargo and passengars, so that could account for the difference.

[ifcar]

It shouldn't make a difference whether the car has a manual or automatic to see whether it's above or below EPA. And they did have one 05 manual (wagon), and its mileage was basically equal to the EPA figure.

You look at every compact car out there and the trend will be that the automatics will likely be a bit under the EPA ratings and the manuals will be a bit above, automatic cars with small engines have to be pushed a lot harder in city driving. And, wagons do weigh more and are likely to be carrying more weight in cargo and passengars, so that could account for the difference.

There's no reason to believe that a Focus wagon is going to be carrying any signficant amount of weight more than the Focus sedan. And weight differences are accounted for in the mileage rating itself.

I'm going to look up other manual compacts to see if the trend you describe is accurate, though I remain certain that no new 110-hp engine will increase the Focus's fuel economy by more than 5 mpg at the very most.

[TBR]

It shouldn't make a difference whether the car has a manual or automatic to see whether it's above or below EPA. And they did have one 05 manual (wagon), and its mileage was basically equal to the EPA figure.

You look at every compact car out there and the trend will be that the automatics will likely be a bit under the EPA ratings and the manuals will be a bit above, automatic cars with small engines have to be pushed a lot harder in city driving. And, wagons do weigh more and are likely to be carrying more weight in cargo and passengars, so that could account for the difference.

There's no reason to believe that a Focus wagon is going to be carrying any signficant amount of weight more than the Focus sedan. And weight differences are accounted for in the mileage rating itself.

I'm going to look up other manual compacts to see if the trend you describe is accurate, though I remain certain that no new 110-hp engine will increase the Focus's fuel economy by more than 5 mpg at the very most.

Yes they almost certainly will. Think about it, people that buy wagons, particularly squareback ones like the Focus, are looking to carry stuff. If they weren't they would get the much cooler and probably cheaper sedan or hatchback.

[ifcar]

It shouldn't make a difference whether the car has a manual or automatic to see whether it's above or below EPA. And they did have one 05 manual (wagon), and its mileage was basically equal to the EPA figure.

You look at every compact car out there and the trend will be that the automatics will likely be a bit under the EPA ratings and the manuals will be a bit above, automatic cars with small engines have to be pushed a lot harder in city driving. And, wagons do weigh more and are likely to be carrying more weight in cargo and passengars, so that could account for the difference.

There's no reason to believe that a Focus wagon is going to be carrying any signficant amount of weight more than the Focus sedan. And weight differences are accounted for in the mileage rating itself.

I'm going to look up other manual compacts to see if the trend you describe is accurate, though I remain certain that no new 110-hp engine will increase the Focus's fuel economy by more than 5 mpg at the very most.

Yes they almost certainly will. Think about it, people that buy wagons, particularly squareback ones like the Focus, are looking to carry stuff. If they weren't they would get the much cooler and probably cheaper sedan or hatchback.

People looking to carry stuff aren't carrying stuff 100% of the time, or even 50% of the time. I personally chose a wagon so that I can carry large cargo or a lot of cargo when I have to, not because I always carry a refrigerator with me.

Any way, I looked through every recent-model manual transmission on the EPA "Your MPG" site. Maybe two thirds were above EPA, so that may prove to be an accurate trend. But, if we're going to be using that site, we can lose the 44 mpg for the Prius. The average mileage on that site (based on 40 users in 2004 and 2005 model years) was 49 mpg.

The Focus couldn't come close.

[TBR]

I was afraid you were going to do that . I doubt the Prius average is really all that accurate since those people probably drive rather conservatively to get the best gas mileage possible.  

[ifcar]

Wasn't your original idea for the 110-hp Focus that people could buy it as a fuel-efficient Prius alternative? They'd drive conservatively as well, so it's a fair comparison.

[hahn]

Wasn't your original idea for the 110-hp Focus that people could buy it as a fuel-efficient Prius alternative? They'd drive conservatively as well, so it's a fair comparison.

I routinely hit EPA mileage (city and highway) in my car.  (2000 Honda Civic)

[Raghavan]

Yeah...the gas engine has 76 HP, and the motor has 67 HP.  That makes 143 horsepower.

no... you just can't add the hp like that. i forget why, but that's why the prius has about ~100hp, not 143.

They achieve their horsepower peaks at different times.

Correct, its not as if you can just combine their outputs.

oh. thanks. :)