Edmunds: New STI vs Shelby GT

[ArchBishop]

The Shelby GT is a joke. And its funny how someone claimed that the GT is 99% of what a Shelby GT is.

Last I checked, the GT got its ass handed to it by the 350Z, RX8 and even a Cobalt SS. Yet the Shelby GT actually did a bit better, though still abysmal, considering a base 350Z with smaller tires, and no lsd still kicked its ass.

The Mustangs are jokes, and it rightfully lost this comparo. To many mistakes that cannot be overlooked by its "Exhaust note"

[r0tor]

The car that I will build will beat the STi in just about every measurable performance test (some by large margins, like acceleration), while looking and sounding better (IMO), all for less money. 

any of us could do that with any of our cars...

[Nethead]

I think that people who have
1: a favorite brand and
2: a brand/marque/model they love to hate
tend to be hypocrites.

Soup DeVille: SoupDude, in a respectful way I disagree. Just about everyone has a list of cars they would shop at tradin' time, and a list of cars that they would not. Much of this is first-hand experience--owning the vehicle that is either favored or hated.

There are some great cars that aren't worth the money--Maybachs come to mind. Their greatness is not in question, but their value for the $$$ is...

There are some great cars that are bargains for the money--hence, my love of the current edition Mustang . The Nethead here would never consider purchasing any Mustang from the 1971 model year through the 2004 model year except for the rare 2000 Cobra R models . That's thirty-one years of Mustangs that do nothing for me --and I despise the  '71s through the  '73s...the Nethead here gives nothing respect that hasn't earned it.

There are some cars that are pure shit 24/7--any  Plymouth Duster in any year/any model comes immediately to mind. The WifeDude had one that practically had to be pushed onto the Honda dealership lot to be traded for an Accord. It had only 28,000 gentle, never-left-rubber-once miles, yet the little turd stalled, broke, ran poorly when it ran at all, got abysmal mileage from its 225 Slant Six, and had the performance of a slug crossing a salt lick. Oh, yeah--the odometer said it had only 26,000 miles at trade-in because the entire malfunctioning dash panel had to be replaced at 2,000 miles. Even the fuckin' battery exploded at around 7,000 miles , spraying the engine compartment and the driver's front fender with acid so that it had to be repainted (which Chrysler couldn't get to match in two repaintings). The driver's seat collapsed (it was the two-door coupe)--the "folding" seat back "folded" all the way off at around 5,000 miles. It was on its third voltage regulator by its third year, and its second or third water pump. There were general build quality issues being discovered monthly--leaks, rattles, misalignment, rust, fading, and on and on and on. Tragically, this is not the worst ownership shit I've heard from other  Duster owners.  Dusters might be the most hated vehicles ever sold.  Dusters didn't luck into this situation, they earned it...This ain't hypocrisy--it's rage ! This is the vehicle that tarnished Plymouth out of business--too many angry former owners spreading the word put Plymouth at the top of the avoid lists of multitudes of would-be customers.

There are some great cars that are worth every penny of their lofty stickers--any pre-water-cooling model of 911 comes to mind--just as there are some great cars that are worth every penny of their thrifty stickers--any model PT Cruiser (except the model with that nasty faux wood paneling) or any model of Focus after the 2002s .

These aren't hypocritical car dudes--they're WISER car dudes.

[omicron]

[Nethead]

The Shelby GT is a joke. And its funny how someone claimed that the GT is 99% of what a Shelby GT is.

Last I checked, the GT got its ass handed to it by the 350Z, RX8 and even a Cobalt SS. Yet the Shelby GT actually did a bit better, though still abysmal, considering a base 350Z with smaller tires, and no lsd still kicked its ass.

The Mustangs are jokes, and it rightfully lost this comparo. To many mistakes that cannot be overlooked by its "Exhaust note"

Anyone who drives an Altima can't be dissing ANY performance vehicle, y' know?

Every one of the cars in your posting will hand your Altima its ass with change--except possibly the 350Z, which has a stalling problem akin to the stalling problem in Altimas produced in the last four model years, so you might get really lucky on a given day and catch a 350Z in stall mode. Else, you're toast...

Have you got your stalling recall notice yet?  Or did Nissan miss yours in the 630,000 stalling Nissans recalled so far? My son is awaiting his recall notice for his stalling 2008 Altima, but he'll have to wait while Nissan first fixes all the stalling 2005s and stalling 2006s--a subsequent recall will be issued for the 2007s and 2008s. Luckily, his is a six-speed manual that has yet to stall in fourth gear. If he can get it up to fourth, he has found that it performs like all the cars you listed in your posting do in all their gears--uh, well--except the 350Z, according to Nissan's recall notices...

[Tave]

Anyone who drives an Altima can't be dissing ANY performance vehicle, y' know?

If this forum required ownership of a high-performance vehicle before a poster made a comment about other performance-oriented cars, then it wouldn't exist. Don't be an ass just because he's not thrilled about your favorite type of car.

[JYODER240]

Anyone who drives an Altima can't be dissing ANY performance vehicle, y' know?

Every one of the cars in your posting will hand your Altima its ass with change--except possibly the 350Z, which has a stalling problem akin to the stalling problem in Altimas produced in the last four model years, so you might get really lucky on a given day and catch a 350Z in stall mode. Else, you're toast...

Have you got your stalling recall notice yet?  Or did Nissan miss yours in the 630,000 stalling Nissans recalled so far? My son is awaiting his recall notice for his stalling 2008 Altima, but he'll have to wait while Nissan first fixes all the stalling 2005s and stalling 2006s--a subsequent recall will be issued for the 2007s and 2008s. Luckily, his is a six-speed manual that has yet to stall in fourth gear. If he can get it up to fourth, he has found that it performs like all the cars you listed in your posting do in all their gears--uh, well--except the 350Z, according to Nissan's recall notices...

What is this stalling problem with 350Z's? I've never heard of it or experienced it.

[LonghornTX]

The Shelby GT is a joke. And its funny how someone claimed that the GT is 99% of what a Shelby GT is.

Last I checked, the GT got its ass handed to it by the 350Z, RX8 and even a Cobalt SS. Yet the Shelby GT actually did a bit better, though still abysmal, considering a base 350Z with smaller tires, and no lsd still kicked its ass.

The Mustangs are jokes, and it rightfully lost this comparo. To many mistakes that cannot be overlooked by its "Exhaust note"

The ignorant will stay ignorant, no matter how persuasive the argument or sound the reasoning.

[TheIntrepid]

Anyone who drives an Altima can't be dissing ANY performance vehicle, y' know?

Are you insane? Just because I don't drive a sports car it doesn't mean I can't criticize one. I drive a FWD automatic land yacht because I got it for $2000 and change BRAND NEW, yes, that's two grand.

What anyone drives doesn't automatically disqualify them from criticizing any car. My father drives a Dodge Grand Caravan and still says that the Mustang is for wannabe macho men. As much as I disagree with his opinion, he's entitled to it.

[SVT666]

Are you insane? Just because I don't drive a sports car it doesn't mean I can't criticize one. I drive a FWD automatic land yacht because I got it for $2000 and change BRAND NEW, yes, that's two grand.

What anyone drives doesn't automatically disqualify them from criticizing any car. My father drives a Dodge Grand Caravan and still says that the Mustang is for wannabe macho men. As much as I disagree with his opinion, he's entitled to it.

I don't like your dad.



There are people on this site that have said I don't have the right to complain about handling because I drive a truck.  You and I both know that's bullshit.

[Nethead]

What is this stalling problem with 350Z's? I've never heard of it or experienced it.

JYODER240: YoDude, why do you ask? Just google "Nissan 350Z recalls" like I did and start paging through...

[LonghornTX]

any of us could do that with any of our cars...

So, what is the point?  Sure, you can take just about any used car (the cheaper the better) and make it into a hotrod for 35k (minus what you pay for the car).  We could probably make Teuton's older Impreza whoop that STi if we poured that much money into it.

That is not my point.  We are talking about new car vs. new car.  New GT (w/ mods) vs. new STi with none.  Price of new GT w/ mods vs price of new STi.

My point is, a lot of people buy the GT as a platform for something more.  Whether they want a drag racer or a corner carver, the GT is a good platform to start with mainly because it has such a large aftermarket (thus parts are relatively cheap and of good quality), a good engine, and it is easy to work on.  Point blank, there is no other new car on the market that can be as cheaply and efficiently modified as a GT. 

[r0tor]

my point is there is no point at comparing a stock car to a modified car with the "oh, I can make my car better the xxx car for xxx" argument.

I'll also argue against the platform comments.  Its certainly not a horrible platform, but the platform is heavy and is hampered with an outdated suspension.  Factory turbo cars can be moded much more cheaply for power then any NA car as well.

For $3-4k you can put over 300hp to the wheels in an RX8 and have a better suspension and a lighter car then either the Mustang or STi... yippee   

[FlatBlackCaddy]

JYODER240: YoDude, why do you ask? Just google "Nissan 350Z recalls" like I did and start paging through...

netman, i made it easy on him just incase he's too busy trying to start his car and can't find time to search.

Here you go yoderdude.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ford+mustang+recalls

[r0tor]

netman, i made it easy on him just incase he's too busy trying to start his car and can't find time to search.

Here you go yoderdude.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ford+mustang+recalls

wow... i'll think about this the next time a mustang is near me


If the broken bracket contacts the tire, sidewall damage can occur, possibly resulting in a vehicle crash.

[LonghornTX]

my point is there is no point at comparing a stock car to a modified car with the "oh, I can make my car better the xxx car for xxx" argument.

I'll also argue against the platform comments.  Its certainly not a horrible platform, but the platform is heavy and is hampered with an outdated suspension.  Factory turbo cars can be moded much more cheaply for power then any NA car as well.

For $3-4k you can put over 300hp to the wheels in an RX8 and have a better suspension and a lighter car then either the Mustang or STi... yippee   

There is a point when you are talking about your own money (or my money in this case).  If I spend 35k on a Mustang (with mods) I am getting more value for my money than anything else in the segment, IMO, including the RX8.

While the mustang does have a older style suspension in the rear, many of the negative affects of that setup can be mitigated quite cheaply and easily with aftermarket parts.  Furthermore the chassis itself is stiff and can take very wide tires without modifications of any kind to the body or suspension, plus its wide track gives it good stability and lateral grip.  Finally, because of economies of scale, the modification of the suspension can be done on a much more cost affective scale than other comparable platforms. 

Sure, FI induction cars are cheaper to initially modify and may be cheaper overall, but that is not always the case.  Anything more than a couple lbs of boost in upgrade will usually require a turbo swap, which is not a cheap or easy thing to do, not to mention the various other things that must be upgraded to keep up with the setup (injectors, fuel pump, intercooler, oil cooler, etc).  The 3V 4.6L V8 has a ridiculous aftermarket and the options are endless.  Twin turbos, various types of superchargers, cams, stroking, etc.  Hell, a lightweight driveshaft ($500) will yield a track tested .2 in the 1/4 mile.

Don't get me wrong, the RX-8 and STi (not too mention 350z) are all great cars with their own positives and negatives.  The Rx-8 was definitely the most polished as a driver's car (IMO) of the old STi, GT, and 350z that I tested, in a stock configuration. 

But, even you if you can get 300hp to the wheels for that cheap (I assume through some kind of turbo setup) with the RX-8, you still have not much money left over to give it more rubber or a stiffer suspension (which it needs IMO).  The GT on the other hand can sometimes break 300whp with just a $700 dollar tuner and CAI upgrade.  Basically, to get the RX8 I would want (the touring or grand touring plus options) plus get power up to a level that I would want and stiffen up the suspension to how I would want would cost more than the $34,500 I am projected to spend on my Mustang (including car).  That much includes 35-50 extra HP on the mustang, a vastly improved suspension (new panhard bar, LCA, LCA mounts, thicker rear sway, adjustable Koni shocks and struts, sport springs, and various other items), a larger improved brake setup, and substantially larger and stickier rubber front and rear, not to mention the other $1000 I am going to spend just to make it look the way I want to. 

Whether one modified setup would be better over the over is debateable.  The Mustang has a wide stance and when paired with the wider stickier GS-D3 rubber would probably provide more mechanical grip.  The Rx-8 would of course be lighter and benefit from more advanced suspension design but be narrower and still retain the soft stock suspension settings and weaker engine (but higher revving which I like).  With the mustang I would have money to have an adjustable setup for my shocks and struts, sport springs, plus performance swaybars and other various items needed to complete the package (bumpsteer adjusters, roll center correction, camber plates, etc).

That is not to say that I think the Mustang is perfect.  It is not.  Fact is, the solid rear end will never handle bumpier surfaces (without a watts link) as well as a modern independant setup.  Nor is it the lighest (though with the modifications I will do, my Mustang will probably end up weighing pretty close to the STi).  But, with the right parts and setup, the Mustang, as simple of a design as it is, can be devastingly quick on a road course and that is a fact.

[LonghornTX]

wow... i'll think about this the next time a mustang is near me


If the broken bracket contacts the tire, sidewall damage can occur, possibly resulting in a vehicle crash.

Maybe you should post the rest of the recall to give a better perspective:
Auto Recall Date: 20061027
Vehicle Component: SUSPENSION:FRONT
Estimated Vehicles Affected: 400
2007 FORD MUSTANG Defect Summary:
CERTAIN AFTERMARKET EIBACH BRANDED FRONT STRUTS ONLY, PART NO. 35101.8001, AND EIBACH BRANDED FRONT STRUTS AS SUSPENSION KITS, PART NOS. 35101.840, 35101.680, 35101.780, 35100.680, 35100.780, 4.10135.680, AND 4.10035.780, SOLD FOR USE ON 2005 THROUGH 2007 FORD MUSTANG VEHICLES. THE FRONT ANTI ROLL BAR ATTACHMENT BRACKET ON THE FRONT STRUT CAN SEPARATE FROM THE STRUT HOUSING DUE TO INCONSISTENT WELDING. THIS COULD RESULT IN A CLUNKING NOISE AND OR POOR HANDLING IN EXTREME OR EMERGENCY MANEUVERS.
Defect Consequence:
IF THE BROKEN BRACKET CONTACTS THE TIRE, SIDEWALL DAMAGE CAN OCCUR, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH.
Remedy:
EIBACH WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER TO PROVIDE NEW STRUTS FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON DECEMBER 1, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT EIBACH AT 951-256-8300.
Notes: EIBACH SPRINGS, INC.,

This refers to the FRPP aftermarket suspension package that ford sells and is also installed on the Shelby GT.  It is sold under the Ford name, but Eibach makes them.  These are the crap shocks and struts I referred to earlier...

[MrH]

I don't really feel like getting involved with this bitch fest, but all I'll say is:

Mustang GT's are for some people, and aren't for others.  For me, it's just not my kind of car, but I don't think any less of those who love them.

More importantly though, Longhorn, do you mind making a thread and walking us through your Mustang build up?  I'm doing something similar, but with much less money with my car, and I'd love to see the progress of your car.

[MX793]

What is this stalling problem with 350Z's? I've never heard of it or experienced it.

I suspect he's alluding to the faulty crank position sensor that Nissan recalled on all of their VQ35s a few years ago. 

Ford just issued a recall on over 1 million vehicles this month for essentially the exact same problem: faulty engine sensor causing engines to stall or fail to run.

[TBR]

Are you insane? Just because I don't drive a sports car it doesn't mean I can't criticize one. I drive a FWD automatic land yacht because I got it for $2000 and change BRAND NEW, yes, that's two grand.

What anyone drives doesn't automatically disqualify them from criticizing any car. My father drives a Dodge Grand Caravan and still says that the Mustang is for wannabe macho men. As much as I disagree with his opinion, he's entitled to it.

No you didn't, a lease buy out does not involve a brand new vehicle by definition.

[Soup DeVille]

Soup DeVille: SoupDude, in a respectful way I disagree. Just about everyone has a list of cars they would shop at tradin' time, and a list of cars that they would not. Much of this is first-hand experience--owning the vehicle that is either favored or hated.

OK, I'm just about getting used to you calling everyone dude, but please stop with the abuse of the peeing monkey smilie!

To clarify: there's not liking cars, and then there's loving to hate cars. The hypocrisy comes when you lambast the car you love to hate for the same or similar attribute you make excuses for on your favorite car.

Like a Mustang nut making fun of hood scoops on an STI.

[SVT666]

OK, I'm just about getting used to you calling everyone dude, but please stop with the abuse of the peeing monkey smilie!

To clarify: there's not liking cars, and then there's loving to hate cars. The hypocrisy comes when you lambast the car you love to hate for the same or similar attribute you make excuses for on your favorite car.

Like a Mustang nut making fun of hood scoops on an STI.

For the record, I think the massive scoop on the last gen STi is badass.

[Soup DeVille]

For the record, I think the massive scoop on the last gen STi is badass.

That's cool, but in this case, I'm not demanding you like it either.

I'm just saying its hypocritical for someone to look at that and say "oh what a ricy, silly piece of racer boy wannabe shit," when they would make excuses for a non-functional scoop on another carthat they happen to like.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Look, mustangs suck.

Period. From their soldi rear axles to their low output V8's(4.6L v8 with 300HP?????? hello ford, meet infiniti 19 fucking 90).

If you meatheads want to cuddle up with your furd at night and wisper sweet nothings into its ear then go ahead.

I personally want nothing to do with that POS. I haven't owned a vehicle with a solid rear axle since a brief stint in a 1995 S10. I was unaware of such things as SRA and drum brakes. Good ol domestics cutting corners and saving a few penies at the expense of quality product, then again if the customer is to stupid to notice then why bother. It reminds me of when i sold basile to all the stupid middle school kids. They got high and were too stupid to notice.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Ford, its like buying a dime bag of basil. Your just too damn stupid to notice.

[the Teuton]

That being said, the STi is a much better car, and I'd gladly take one over the Mustang.  Yes, I am a troll.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Ford, its like buying a dime bag of basile. Your just too damn stupid to notice.

Basilz! 

[r0tor]

There is a point when you are talking about your own money (or my money in this case).  If I spend 35k on a Mustang (with mods) I am getting more value for my money than anything else in the segment, IMO, including the RX8.

While the mustang does have a older style suspension in the rear, many of the negative affects of that setup can be mitigated quite cheaply and easily with aftermarket parts.  Furthermore the chassis itself is stiff and can take very wide tires without modifications of any kind to the body or suspension, plus its wide track gives it good stability and lateral grip.  Finally, because of economies of scale, the modification of the suspension can be done on a much more cost affective scale than other comparable platforms. 

Sure, FI induction cars are cheaper to initially modify and may be cheaper overall, but that is not always the case.  Anything more than a couple lbs of boost in upgrade will usually require a turbo swap, which is not a cheap or easy thing to do, not to mention the various other things that must be upgraded to keep up with the setup (injectors, fuel pump, intercooler, oil cooler, etc).  The 3V 4.6L V8 has a ridiculous aftermarket and the options are endless.  Twin turbos, various types of superchargers, cams, stroking, etc.  Hell, a lightweight driveshaft ($500) will yield a track tested .2 in the 1/4 mile.

Don't get me wrong, the RX-8 and STi (not too mention 350z) are all great cars with their own positives and negatives.  The Rx-8 was definitely the most polished as a driver's car (IMO) of the old STi, GT, and 350z that I tested, in a stock configuration. 

But, even you if you can get 300hp to the wheels for that cheap (I assume through some kind of turbo setup) with the RX-8, you still have not much money left over to give it more rubber or a stiffer suspension (which it needs IMO).  The GT on the other hand can sometimes break 300whp with just a $700 dollar tuner and CAI upgrade.  Basically, to get the RX8 I would want (the touring or grand touring plus options) plus get power up to a level that I would want and stiffen up the suspension to how I would want would cost more than the $34,500 I am projected to spend on my Mustang (including car).  That much includes 35-50 extra HP on the mustang, a vastly improved suspension (new panhard bar, LCA, LCA mounts, thicker rear sway, adjustable Koni shocks and struts, sport springs, and various other items), a larger improved brake setup, and substantially larger and stickier rubber front and rear, not to mention the other $1000 I am going to spend just to make it look the way I want to. 

Whether one modified setup would be better over the over is debateable.  The Mustang has a wide stance and when paired with the wider stickier GS-D3 rubber would probably provide more mechanical grip.  The Rx-8 would of course be lighter and benefit from more advanced suspension design but be narrower and still retain the soft stock suspension settings and weaker engine (but higher revving which I like).  With the mustang I would have money to have an adjustable setup for my shocks and struts, sport springs, plus performance swaybars and other various items needed to complete the package (bumpsteer adjusters, roll center correction, camber plates, etc).

not to be the RX8 whore here, but i'm failing to see some of the logic... (but i'll say up front i respect your goals for your car and like them a lot)

I'll just take this from the RX8 perspective since i know it best (i'm sure the same applies to most or all of the cars in this range)... stock on that platform you have double wishbones up front, multilink rear, generous caster/camber/toe adjustment on all four corners, the ability to fit a 10" wheel on all 4 corners stock, and a car that weighs 2900-3030lbs depending on options.

A double adjustable coilover suspension from KYW can be had for $1,600 and isn't even really needed (or you could go with about a dozen other coilovers offered - one of which is as little as $600).  There is enough adjustment in the stock suspension to keep the camber/toe/cster in spec as low as you want to go.  The top B-stock auto-x teams and a bunch of track day junkies just use 4 koni yellows for $600 total and they are set.  If you really want to play with sway bars afterwards, a set of adjustable front and rears from progressive will set you back $400 for the set.  None of which cost any more then Mustang aftermarket parts offered and you save a ton by not having to try to change the piss poor stock suspension components as all the suspensions arms are already cast aluminum and there is nothing to be gained.

The stock brakes already outstop pretty much anything on the market.  The stock rotors and calipers are used by Speedsource for their touring cars.  Weight savings can be had with a 2 piece setup offered for some $ but all thats really needed for a track day is a set of pads.  Again checking the prices, if you want to have your eyeballs pop out of your head you can get a 2 piece rotor and aluminum 4 pot caliper upgrade for the RX8 for less then $2k, which is right in line with the Mustang kits.

Power does come at a price with the half a dozen forced induction kits ranging from 260rwhp to 400 rwhp for $3-7k... the cheapest being the greddy kit ($3k) which hits full boost around 3k rpms and with some tuning is hitting a little over 300 to the wheels.  The one disadvantge, but given the weight advantage.... eh

[Champ]

Sure, FI induction cars are cheaper to initially modify and may be cheaper overall, but that is not always the case.  Anything more than a couple lbs of boost in upgrade will usually require a turbo swap, which is not a cheap or easy thing to do, not to mention the various other things that must be upgraded to keep up with the setup (injectors, fuel pump, intercooler, oil cooler, etc).  The 3V 4.6L V8 has a ridiculous aftermarket and the options are endless.  Twin turbos, various types of superchargers, cams, stroking, etc.  Hell, a lightweight driveshaft ($500) will yield a track tested .2 in the 1/4 mile.

So upgrading an already F/I car's turbo is more difficult than adding an aftermarket turbo kit to a N/A car?

[S204STi]

I really love the new STI, and hope to own one in four years, but I have to say this comparo is really only good at pointing out how one dimensional and overpriced the whole Shelby Mustang thing is.

That said, the basic Mustang Gt V8 is still one of the best performance bargains of this decade.  300+hp for ~$26k anyone?