GT-R does 0-60 in...

[MrH]

I usually let Raza's prompting "opinions" slide on by, where he waits for someone to respond with a "well, why would you think that?". And then he can give off the grumpy, stubborn old man persona again.

But really, this is ridiculous.  You're pretty much saying there's a negative correlation between speed and fun, which is the exact opposite of pretty much every other car enthusiast out there.  Stop trying to be different for the sake of being different, and listen to what you're actually saying.

[Soup DeVille]

  You're pretty much saying there's a negative correlation between speed and fun,

He's said no such thing, and I don't really see it being implied.

[MrH]

"When fast is the most important thing, fun becomes unimportant. "

That's not true at all.  Also saying he'd take a standard Corvette over a Z06 makes little to no sense.

[Raza]

There are plenty of reasons to take a standard Corvette over a Z06.  Looks, open top, and being more controllable (per Angelelli's comments) come to mind right away. 

And the comment you quoted is really referring to racing and the use of race technology in road cars; obviously even you wouldn't argue that race technology is implemented in race cars so that race drivers can have more fun, would you? 

[Soup DeVille]

"When fast is the most important thing, fun becomes unimportant. "

That's not true at all.  Also saying he'd take a standard Corvette over a Z06 makes little to no sense.

It is true in a very general sense.

Pushing the envelope is fun. A standard corvette will find that edge in more situations than a Zo6 will in a non-track setting.

Race car builders are concerned with speed, not driver involvement; but it's involvement that makes the cars fun.

He's not saying they are mutually exclusive goals.

[MrH]

Fun does NOT become unimportant when fast is the most important thing.  Fun may no longer be the most important thing, but it's not completely ignored.  By putting speed first, I don't think it's possible to let fun become unimportant.  To nearly all I can think of (apparently except Raza), there's a correlation between speed and fun.

[MrH]

There are plenty of reasons to take a standard Corvette over a Z06.  Looks, open top, and being more controllable (per Angelelli's comments) come to mind right away. 

And the comment you quoted is really referring to racing and the use of race technology in road cars; obviously even you wouldn't argue that race technology is implemented in race cars so that race drivers can have more fun, would you? 

Since when are we talking about race cars though?

[Raza]

Since when are we talking about race cars though?

I was talking about race technology being used in road cars to make them faster.  Loads of power, high limits, and race technology doesn't necessarily make a car fun. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

I was talking about race technology being used in road cars to make them faster.  Loads of power, high limits, and race technology doesn't necessarily make a car fun. 

Nor does it necessarily make it unfun. What's your point?

[Raza]

Nor does it necessarily make it unfun. What's your point?

I made my point.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I made my point.

Your point was that you had no point? That seems rather pointless. 

[Raza]

Your point was that you had no point? That seems rather pointless. 

Some people think that fast = fun, and therefore a DSG/F1 transmission makes a car more fun.  Next time I won't stop you from facing the cave wall. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

Some people think that fast = fun, and therefore a DSG/F1 transmission makes a car more fun.  Next time I won't stop you from facing the cave wall. 

Yup. Fast is usually fun. It's actually hard for me to think of an instance when fast isn't fun in some way. Perhaps if the pace of a calculus class is too fast, then it is not fun.

[Raza]

Yup. Fast is usually fun. It's actually hard for me to think of an instance when fast isn't fun in some way. Perhaps if the pace of a calculus class is too fast, then it is not fun.

You've never driven an AMG S class, I take it?  Or a 350Z?  Or a Toyota Camry?

[MrH]

You've never driven an AMG S class, I take it?  Or a 350Z?  Or a Toyota Camry?

I'd most certainly say an AMG S-class is more fun than the much slower non-AMG S-class.  And a Camry with a V6 is more fun than the 4 cylinder.  And the 350Z would be a lot less fun with 100 hp.  Your point?

[MrH]

I was talking about race technology being used in road cars to make them faster.  Loads of power, high limits, and race technology doesn't necessarily make a car fun. 

Just because car companies are using race technology doesn't mean that they now find "fun" to be completely unimportant.

[Eye of the Tiger]

You've never driven an AMG S class, I take it?

Yeah, um, no. I assume you think the AMG S class is not a fun car to drive. But let me ask the obvious question: would it be more fun if it had less power? That's just a stupid idea - to take away power from a vehicle that isn't fun to begin with. That generally makes things worse, unless the power is just so overwhelming to a shitty chassis that it makes the car uncontrollable.

I've driven my dad's Sienna a lots - the fastest minivan in production as far as I know. It is not a particularly fun vehicle to drive, but responsive powertrain is one of it's most redeeming qualities.

I do believe you're talking out of your ass for the most part. I have plenty of experience with cheap and slow vehicles, some more entertaining than others. I have less experience with big fancy rich-boy fast ones vehicles. Please forgive me if the big fancy rich-boy fast ones get me a little excited.

[Raza]

Whatever you want to believe.  Sales are won with statistics nowadays anyway. 

[Soup DeVille]

Just because car companies are using race technology doesn't mean that they now find "fun" to be completely unimportant.

No, but I think it would be fair to say that most car companies know that spec sheets sell sports cars, even if the buyers will never use all that performance. Having bragging rights on paper over a competitor on 0-60 times may be more important to the company than trying to pleae the people who insist on rowing thier own gears: even if some might consider it less fun.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Whatever you want to believe.  Sales are won with statistics nowadays anyway. 

Go ahead and keep believing that the only way to have fun is to drive a car with at least 20lb/hp and a 4-speed non-synchronized transmission. I believe in fun when I feel it, regardless of statistics or media hype.

[Soup DeVille]

Go ahead and keep believing that the only way to have fun is to drive a car with at least 20lb/hp and a 4-speed non-synchronized transmission. I believe in fun when I feel it, regardless of statistics or media hype.

Nice strawman you've built there, does he have a name?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Nice strawman you've built there, does he have a name?

Boobies drives a 1915 Model T Roadster, and he thinks it's more fun because it's a Roadster.

[Soup DeVille]

Boobies huh? You've mentioned him before haven't you?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Boobies huh? You've mentioned him before haven't you?

8008135 C4R:

[MrH]

No, but I think it would be fair to say that most car companies know that spec sheets sell sports cars, even if the buyers will never use all that performance. Having bragging rights on paper over a competitor on 0-60 times may be more important to the company than trying to pleae the people who insist on rowing thier own gears: even if some might consider it less fun.

That's assuming everyone prefers to row their own gears.  I'd say the majority of people would probably prefer the DSG, so who's to say that fun is no longer their priority?  Oh yeah, that's right, because it's not what Raza wants, so it must be a silly choice.

And Raza's argument didn't say that.  It said when speed becomes the most important thing, fun is unimportant.  That's not true at all.  It may no longer be the number one priority, but to allude to speed not being fun is just ridiculous.  Any enthusiast in their right mind wouldn't turn down a little extra power (on the vast majority of cars.  Something like the Veyron could be an exception to this).

[Soup DeVille]

That's assuming everyone prefers to row their own gears.  I'd say the majority of people would probably prefer the DSG, so who's to say that fun is no longer their priority?  Oh yeah, that's right, because it's not what Raza wants, so it must be a silly choice.

And Raza's argument didn't say that.  It said when speed becomes the most important thing, fun is unimportant.  That's not true at all.  It may no longer be the number one priority, but to allude to speed not being fun is just ridiculous.  Any enthusiast in their right mind wouldn't turn down a little extra power (on the vast majority of cars.  Something like the Veyron could be an exception to this).

I think you're purposedly misinterpretting what he said.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I think you're purposedly misinterpretting what he said.

I think Raza is purposely making a misinterpretable statement.
MrH and I are on the same page, but Raza has thrown the book into the fire and downed half a liter of Jim Beam.

[Vinsanity]

Some people think that fast = fun, and therefore a DSG/F1 transmission makes a car more fun.  Next time I won't stop you from facing the cave wall. 

So they built the GT-R to be fast, not fun. How tragic.

Oh well, how un-fun can lapping Nurburgring faster than a 911 Turbo be, anyways?

[Raza]

I think Raza is purposely making a misinterpretable statement.
MrH and I are on the same page, but Raza has thrown the book into the fire and downed half a liter of Jim Beam.

I'm drinking Buffalo Trace.

[MrH]

I think you're purposedly misinterpretting what he said.

Not at all.  You're trying to make me out to be much more complex and sinister than I am. 

It was just an outrageous claim that I felt needed to be pointed out.  I hope no one takes offense to the things I post on here.  Even though I basically just called Raza a little bitch and said he's wrong, no hard feelings on this end.  I doubt he feels any differently. 

I think my point still stands by saying even boring cars are more fun with more power.

And Vinsanity said it best probably:
"Oh well, how un-fun can lapping Nurburgring faster than a 911 Turbo be, anyways?"