Hardtop or convertible?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Paved ones with twisty bits in them.

You should leave the drifting in Tokyo!

[Soup DeVille]

You should leave the drifting in Tokyo!

I was not attempting to drift. I was simply trying to see how fast I could go around a particular curve...

[JYODER240]

Whatever. You think just because my opinion is different than yours its wrong, as usual with you. Do you think I live in a cave? Do you honestly think I've only ridden/driven in one car with a sunroof? Im only using my car as its the best example I have. I have said time and time again that I don't mind people who like sunroofs. I just don't like them! At all. I never will! Jesus..talk about beating the dead horse. I have given you plenty of reasons as to why I don't like them, all of them are valid complaints that would be easily avoidable if I did not have a sunroof. You seem to think my reasons aren't good enough for you. Which then somehow tells you I "have a lack of knowledge, perspective, or experience." JUST BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT OR LIKEWISE MAKE ME RIGHT.

If you don't like me attacking your opinion then maybe you should back it up a solid foundation based on these other cars you've ridden in/driven. From the beginning of this thread your opinion has been based on how you don't like them because of the one in your car.

I don't like sunroofs either. My whole damn roof is glass and it gets annoying as hell during the summer. The covers don't help, at all.

You only talked about why you don't like sunroofs because of the one in your car, and while the cover may not do much in your car it does in most others. There's not much of a difference between pulling the cover forward and not having a sunroof. I get in and out of cars all day long at work and never once have I felt a noticable difference between identical cars, one with one without a sunroof.

The sports car gives you benefits. My roof being all glass has no benefits because down here in Texas where 100 degrees is normal during the summer it gives me nothing. Mine is never open, ever. If I want fresh air I roll down the side windows. So, here I am with a giant glass roof that never gets used. Why should I have one then? And how is not wanting a sunroof making me an unthusiast? I hate sunroofs and nothing you say will ever change my mind.

Again your opinion is centered around your car. Your roof that is all glass is not indicative of all cars. You only speak of the high day-time tempatures during the summer months. You ignore nights and cooler times of the year. Your attitude proves your close-mindedness.

I don't understand this. Why is it such a big deal whether or not we like or dislike a damn sunroof? If it was something like a stick ( ) then this would be a justifiable response from you and yoder. But this is a sunroof! It only adds weight! We all can't have the same logic as you two though eh?

I'm argueing with you because you're not backing up your opinion with solid logic. Saying I hate the sunroof in my car because it gets too hot during the summer is one thing. Saying you hate all sunroofs because of that is rediculous.

I said when I want air I just roll the windows down. Why do I need the sunroof then? All it does is make my black car even hotter. You are way up north where you don't have half our temperature in the summer. My car gets scalding hot even with the shitty shade closed. The shade only blocks the sunlight, not the heat. You need to rethink the "my opinion is right, yours is wrong mentality". I never said everybody shouldn't sunroofs. I just don't like them. If it was an option on my car, I wouldn't have gotten the damn thing. If I want more wind in my hair than my two windows provide, I would of gotten a convertible. Something that is beside the point anyways but the sunroof doesn't even allow hardly any wind in. Just an annoying sucking noise.

You might say Im closed to new experience, IF I was saying I don't like sunroofs and I didn't have one in my current car. Fact is, my entire roof is made from glass, and I just find myself getting annoyed by it more than anything. As I have said before, the shades might block the direct sunlight, but when I park my car the heat still gets into it. Yoder tried to get all scientific and tried to prove me wrong by saying people put shades in the windshields. Which they do. There is one main difference between those shades and my two cent shades made in god knows where. Mine are literally just a piece of cloth which at best absorbs the heat. The windshield shades on the other hand REFLECT the sunlight and heat, not just block it. That is the main difference and is it huge. Secondly, even when the sunroof is open, I get no additional airflow in my car, it has a glass piece that pops up and effectively blocks all the wind from coming into the car. So if it gives me zero benefits but gives me multiple amounts of issues, why should I like it? Don't get me wrong, I love the wind in my hair, I love some 'verts. But when it  comes to sunroofs, I will pass every single time, given the option.

More of the same.


It's only after I point these things out that you say you're forming your opinion based on other cars. If you're going to make posts close-minded posts based on weak logic then yes I am going to argue it. I never said you should have the same opinion as me but you should be able to back it up based on sound-reasoning. It gets old coming to this forum hearing people argue their biases based on something the have little experience, or knowledge on.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I was not attempting to drift. I was simply trying to see how fast I could go around a particular curve...

Well, you did it wrong. 

[Soup DeVille]

Well, you did it wrong. 

I did it right eventually.

[Raza]

3 up, mothers!

[ChrisV]

Whatever. You think just because my opinion is different than yours its wrong, as usual with you. JUST BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT OR LIKEWISE MAKE ME RIGHT.

Again, like Hemi, you seem to think its ONLY about having a different opinion and that Yoder has an isue with the fact that your opinion differs. THAT proves a lack of intelligence on your part as you fail to see that he SAID, point blank, "If you had solid reasoning behind not liking sunroofs I would have no problem with your opinion" and "I never said you should have the same opinion as me but you should be able to back it up based on sound-reasoning"

I have to agree with this. Solid reasoning based on thoughtful reflection makes a differing opinion unassailable. What part of that flies over your head?

It's easy to HOLD an opinion, but apprently difficult for some people to examine or support their opinions. And if you post your opinion on a public, international forum, be prepared to have the reasoning behind an opinion called into question! If we can question a President's logic, we can certainly question YOURS.

[Raza]

Come on guys.  Convertibles are winning!  Love-a-lot Bear wants you all to e-hug.

[ChrisV]

I don't think you should have to justify a preference...an opinion? Absolutely, but not a preference.  I prefer a lot of things over other things and don't even know why.  I just know I prefer them.

The problem comes when you DO use things to justify your preference, like Minpin did when he said in effect that because HIS sunroof makes the car too hot in summer, that they ALL do. That's a flawed fact. That and other statements that were flawed were what were called into question, not the preference, itself. Can you really not see the difference? That's interesting.

yeah, there are a lot of things that we prefer without knowing why. Like colors. and there woudl be no reason to justify that preference. But of you DO try to justify that preference with statments, then the logic/reasoning used to make that justificateion can and will be called into question by people that have different experience. In this case, just stating that you have a preference for hardtops is a fine, unassailable preference, just like having a preference for blue. It's when someone states that the REASON they have a preference is _____ that it gets questioned. I don't think I can make it any clearer.

[ChrisV]

You and ChrisV need to get a room.

You and Minpin need to get a room.

Two can play at that game, Hemi. Do you think it makes you look smarter to be this childish? What part of whining like a little girl about your opinion being questioned do you see as a virtue?

[565]

This is harilious, a flame war over sunroofs....

God we've hit rock bottom.

[omicron]

Come on guys.  Convertibles are winning!  Love-a-lot Bear wants you all to e-hug.

*hugs*

[Raza]

I'll this much.  The sun is one persistent bastard.  Sunroof or not, he'll find a way in.

[Raza]

I'll say!
Can't edit on the mobile site.

[Byteme]

This is harilious, a flame war over sunroofs....

God we've hit rock bottom.

+1

Next week tune into: "Fuzzy Dice.  Which is correct?  White with black dots or black with white dots?"   

[ChrisV]

This is harilious, a flame war over sunroofs....

God we've hit rock bottom.

Some would say it's "rock bottom" to argue about ANYTHING about cars. But the car is the subject of choice for this forum, and we are passionate about cars, so there are arguments.

It's the same pattern, regardless. An opinion is stated, along with reasons for that opinion. The reasons are called into question and then there is whining that the opinion maker is not allowed to have an opinion. Doesn't mater whether it's sunroofs, sports cars, or politics. And you do it to people just as much. You simply have your own personal hot topics that set it off.

[Tave]

Actually, I think Minpin makes a good point.

He says, "I hate sunroofs, they make the car hot for me."

Yoder says, "then just pull the shade."



But, doesn't a shade defeat the purpose of the sunroof? If you always have to use it, then you don't need the sunroof, and probably shouldn't be buying them.


Calling someone "girly" over that is childish.

[JYODER240]

Actually, I think Minpin makes a good point.

He says, "I hate sunroofs, they make the car hot for me."

Yoder says, "then just pull the shade."



But, doesn't a shade defeat the purpose of the sunroof? If you always have to use it, then you don't need the sunroof, and probably shouldn't be buying them.


Calling someone "girly" over that is childish.

There's also times you could use them without the heat, like at night or cooler times of ther year. He could have just said that he doesn't care for them enough to spend the extra money and that would have made sense. Instead he provided illogical reasons so I questioned them.

[Raza]

On hot days, pull the shade.
Do you live ?n hell that the sun beats down on you all and every day?

[Eye of the Tiger]

[TheIntrepid]

Come on guys.  Convertibles are winning!  Love-a-lot Bear wants you all to e-hug.

I'd sig that if it wasn't so huge.

[Tave]

There's also times you could use them without the heat, like at night

A sunroof at night? What are you on, crack?

or cooler times of ther year. He could have just said that he doesn't care for them enough to spend the extra money and that would have made sense. Instead he provided illogical reasons so I questioned them.

His complaint is he doesn't like the heat. That's completely logical. You insulting him over it, on the other hand, is almost too much to believe.

On hot days, pull the shade.
Do you live ?n hell that the sun beats down on you all and every day?

Even on cooler days, glass windows heat an encolsed space, but that's beside the point.


Maybe, just maybe, HE LIKES TO DRIVE IN THE SHADE.

[Eye of the Tiger]

A sunroof at night? What are you on, crack?

Yeah! That's what moonroofs are for!

[Byteme]

So where is it written that someone who has an opinion must back it up with facts and figures acceptable to the other party and if they can't their opinion isn't valid.  I think that's what I see some people writing on this topic.

For example:

Joder 240 wrote:  I'm argueing with you because you're not backing up your opinion with solid logic. Saying I hate the sunroof in my car because it gets too hot during the summer is one thing. Saying you hate all sunroofs because of that is rediculous.

and

Again your opinion is centered around your car. Your roof that is all glass is not indicative of all cars. You only speak of the high day-time tempatures during the summer months. You ignore nights and cooler times of the year. Your attitude proves your close-mindedness.




ChrisV wrote:

Again, like Hemi, you seem to think its ONLY about having a different opinion and that Yoder has an isue with the fact that your opinion differs. THAT proves a lack of intelligence on your part as you fail to see that he SAID, point blank, "If you had solid reasoning behind not liking sunroofs I would have no problem with your opinion" and "I never said you should have the same opinion as me but you should be able to back it up based on sound-reasoning"

I have to agree with this. Solid reasoning based on thoughtful reflection makes a differing opinion unassailable. What part of that flies over your head?

It's easy to HOLD an opinion, but apprently difficult for some people to examine or support their opinions. And if you post your opinion on a public, international forum, be prepared to have the reasoning behind an opinion called into question! If we can question a President's logic, we can certainly question YOURS.e

Opinion is defined as "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.  That underlined bit is what differentiates opinion from fact.

Given that, one can certainly have a differing opinion but it is totally illogical to tell someone their opinion is wrong becasue they haven't considered all the facts or that one disagrees with thir reasoning.  

You guys essentially telling Hemi and others that their opinions are wrong because you disagree with the reasons behind their opinion.  Sorry, it doesn't work that way, opinions don't have to be backed by sound reasoning and unassiable logic backed by sound judgement (as judged by who?).  If they were they wouldn't be called opinion, they would be called facts.

[ChrisV]

So yourssaying that it's a valuabl,e goal to make sure your fact s are wrong so long as you hold an opinion?  I see...

Do I want to take advice from someone who's opinion is not backed by facts? I dont' think so.

if you need medical attention, do you go to a doctor or just some schmoe down the street? Why? If you go to a medical board, do you think you could get away with saying you can cure lung cancer by rubbing grape jelly on your chest and chanting if you said "it's my opinion?" Do you think anyone would say, "Gee, that's nice, he has an opinion...?"

Hell, let's say it's an, oh, automotive forum, and someone logged on and said that Cavaliers are the fastest cars on the planet because their V8s make 500 hp, stock. Would that fly if they whined that their facts didn't have to be right as loing as it was their opinion? Give me a break. You'd be one of the first to jump on someone with that sort of opinion and tell them that their facts are wrong. The ONLY reason this is different is due to who's saying it.

[Rich]

Hell, let's say it's an, oh, automotive forum, and someone logged on and said that Cavaliers are the fastest cars on the planet because their V8s make 500 hp, stock.

That isn't an opinion

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

 

[SVT666]

So yourssaying that it's a valuabl,e goal to make sure your fact s are wrong so long as you hold an opinion?  I see...

Do I want to take advice from someone who's opinion is not backed by facts? I dont' think so.

What is factually wrong about: "I don't like sunroofs because I don't like the sun beating down on me in my car" or "I don't like when the sun is at angles that my sunglasses can't block it" or "The sunroof makes my car too hot for me"?  Show me one statement that is actually factually wrong.

if you need medical attention, do you go to a doctor or just some schmoe down the street? Why? If you go to a medical board, do you think you could get away with saying you can cure lung cancer by rubbing grape jelly on your chest and chanting if you said "it's my opinion?" Do you think anyone would say, "Gee, that's nice, he has an opinion...?"

Yeah, because that's so relevant to sunroofs.

Hell, let's say it's an, oh, automotive forum, and someone logged on and said that Cavaliers are the fastest cars on the planet because their V8s make 500 hp, stock. Would that fly if they whined that their facts didn't have to be right as loing as it was their opinion? Give me a break. You'd be one of the first to jump on someone with that sort of opinion and tell them that their facts are wrong. The ONLY reason this is different is due to who's saying it.

You are an idiot aren't you?  Sometimes your childishness really surprises me.  This imaginary scenario you describe doesn't even include an opinion.  If you took the time to stop beating your own chest and believing that you are some kind of automotive god, then you might learn something new from coming here every day.

[Byteme]

So yourssaying that it's a valuabl,e goal to make sure your fact s are wrong so long as you hold an opinion?  I see...
No apparently you don't see.  I neither state or implied anything of the sort.  sI stated an opinion doesn't need to be backed up by positive knowledge or proof.

Do I want to take advice from someone who's opinion is not backed by facts? I dont' think so.
And you are free not to.  People offer opinions all the time, sometimes solicited sometimes not.  People base their opinions on any number of facts and/or beliefs.  It's up to you to decide if their opinion has merit.  I don't believe it's up to you to attack them because you don't like the reasoning behind their opinion.


if you need medical attention, do you go to a doctor or just some schmoe down the street? Why? If you go to a medical board, do you think you could get away with saying you can cure lung cancer by rubbing grape jelly on your chest and chanting if you said "it's my opinion?" Do you think anyone would say, "Gee, that's nice, he has an opinion...?"
 They might.  See my response immediately above.

Hell, let's say it's an, oh, automotive forum, and someone logged on and said that Cavaliers are the fastest cars on the planet because their V8s make 500 hp, stock. Would that fly if they whined that their facts didn't have to be right as loing as it was their opinion? Give me a break. You'd be one of the first to jump on someone with that sort of opinion and tell them that their facts are wrong. The ONLY reason this is different is due to who's saying it.
Wrong.  I wouldn't "jump on" anyone.  If someone came here with those kinds of wild claims they would probably be ignored or laughed at.  No one takes that kind of stuff seriously.  

Now telling someone their opinion on sunroofs is invalid because their sample size is too small or they haven't considered all the facts is a different story.  If some one says they don't like sonroofs becasue they had a car with one and they didn;t like it that's all that matters.  If that information is sufficient for that individual to form an opinio he feels is valid who are we to tell him his opinion sucks.  Not he bucko.  I might tell him my opinion differs and why, but I see no reason to assail the guy.

The above bold text is just my opinion.  

[Byteme]

If you took the time to stop beating your own chest and believing that you are some kind of automotive god, then you might learn something new from coming here every day.

Well, in my humble opinion that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.