Anyone know when the 4Runner will be up for a redesign?

[akuma_supreme]

Given the rapid slow-down in the SUV market, I wonder if the 4Runner is going to be replaced at all.

[ifcar]

Given the rapid slow-down in the SUV market, I wonder if the 4Runner is going to be replaced at all.

Even if Toyota could react that fast to market conditions (any new 09 4Runner is probably at least 90% developed) I can't imagine their abandoning such a well-established and well-recognized nameplate over what could just be a temporary slowdown. It's not like the Celica, where sales just dwindled away to nothing; sales are down, but they've still sold 20,000 of them already this year and are on track to sell nearly 40k more, and they can't be low-margin.

[Lebowski]

Even if Toyota could react that fast to market conditions (any new 09 4Runner is probably at least 90% developed) I can't imagine their abandoning such a well-established and well-recognized nameplate over what could just be a temporary slowdown. It's not like the Celica, where sales just dwindled away to nothing; sales are down, but they've still sold 20,000 of them already this year and are on track to sell nearly 40k more, and they can't be low-margin.

I agree.  Sales are slowing, but discontinuing a ~40k unit model with a ~$30k+ MSRP isn't a decision you take lightly.

There probably are too many truck-based SUVs on the market, but if they start disappearing I think there is a lot of "low hanging fruit" that will disappear long before the 4runner.

[akuma_supreme]

The 4Runner certainly has more market cachet than a lot of other SUVs.  On the other hand, its been at best a niche player since the debut of the Highlander.  SUVs in general have been migrating to the more popular car-based platform model.  Witness the Lambda quadruplets essentially replacing the Envoy and Trailblazer, and the next Explorer going car-based. 

The 4Runner's niche was made even more precarious with the FJ Cruiser's launch.  If the Highlander is the station wagon for families who want to look butch, and the FJ Cruiser is the one actually designed for off-roading, then what's the raison d'etre of the 4Runner?  A cushier, yet still off-road worthy vehicle?  About the only other types of vehicles that I can think of in the marketplace that occupy this area are the Land Rover Discovery and the Jeep Grand Cherokee, both of which seem to compete more directly with Lexus' offerings.

I've defended Toyota's schizophrenic approach to model offerings- maybe there truly still is a niche for the 4Runner and I just can't see it.

[Lebowski]

The 4Runner certainly has more market cachet than a lot of other SUVs.  On the other hand, its been at best a niche player since the debut of the Highlander.  SUVs in general have been migrating to the more popular car-based platform model.  Witness the Lambda quadruplets essentially replacing the Envoy and Trailblazer, and the next Explorer going car-based. 

The 4Runner's niche was made even more precarious with the FJ Cruiser's launch.  If the Highlander is the station wagon for families who want to look butch, and the FJ Cruiser is the one actually designed for off-roading, then what's the raison d'etre of the 4Runner?  A cushier, yet still off-road worthy vehicle?  About the only other types of vehicles that I can think of in the marketplace that occupy this area are the Land Rover Discovery and the Jeep Grand Cherokee, both of which seem to compete more directly with Lexus' offerings.

I've defended Toyota's schizophrenic approach to model offerings- maybe there truly still is a niche for the 4Runner and I just can't see it.

40k annual units for an SUV in the 5th year of its generation and almost $4 gas is hardly niche.

[akuma_supreme]

40k annual units for an SUV in the 5th year of its generation and almost $4 gas is hardly niche.

By Detroit Three standards, that's positively microscopic.  The Magnum was axed and it was selling twice those numbers.

[Lebowski]

By Detroit Three standards, that's positively microscopic.  The Magnum was axed and it was selling twice those numbers.

Up until very recently the Detroit 3 still had capacity in place as if they still had twice the market share they actually still have.  When your fixed costs are too high, volume is king.  For any properly run business, it isn't.

Porsche is the most profitable auto company in the world, and their total units for all models are only about 100k globally.

The D3 on the other hand are mismanaged pieces of shit with bloated cost structures, and their decision making criteria generally can't be applied to the J3/transplants.

[The Pirate]

About the only other types of vehicles that I can think of in the marketplace that occupy this area are the Land Rover Discovery and the Jeep Grand Cherokee, both of which seem to compete more directly with Lexus' offerings.

Nissan Pathfinder slots right in there as well.  I'd probably opt for an Xterra myself, but the Pathfinder and 4Runner (which I've always liked) would be high on my list if I were shopping in that segment.

[TBR]

Pretty sure that Porsche is the most profitable company per unit, not overall (and Nissan is the most profitable high volume company per unit).

[Lebowski]

Pretty sure that Porsche is the most profitable company per unit, not overall (and Nissan is the most profitable high volume company per unit).

It's the most profitable by just about every measure of profitability - operating margin, ROE, ROI, ROA, etc.

I didn't mean in absolute dollars, that doesn't really measure how successful a company is at translating sales and assets into profits.

[ifcar]

40k annual units for an SUV in the 5th year of its generation and almost $4 gas is hardly niche.

It's on track for closer to 60k. Which is niche compared to the Highlander or RAV4, but certainly not tiny.

The Land Cruiser is what has the truly tiny niche; they can't sell 5,000 a year of those in the US. But it soldiers on as the off-road luxury SUV, which people like for some reason.

[Lebowski]

It's on track for closer to 60k. Which is niche compared to the Highlander or RAV4, but certainly not tiny.

The Land Cruiser is what has the truly tiny niche; they can't sell 5,000 a year of those in the US. But it soldiers on as the off-road luxury SUV, which people like for some reason.

The Land Cruiser is just so damn expensive.  I seem to see a lot of Lexus LXs on the road though.

[ifcar]

The Land Cruiser is just so damn expensive.  I seem to see a lot of Lexus LXs on the road though.

Which makes even less sense, because it's the Lexus least distinguished from the comparable Toyota.

Oh well. When I'm that rich, I guess I can spend my money however I want, too.

[Lebowski]

Which makes even less sense, because it's the Lexus least distinguished from the comparable Toyota.

Oh well. When I'm that rich, I guess I can spend my money however I want, too.

Yeah, I don't get that.  If I was going to spend an obscene amount on an SUV, I guess the LC would be it.  But I don't think I'd ever spend an obscene amount on an SUV, when a 4Runner or a Tahoe would do anything I'd want it to do.

[hotrodalex]

Yeah, I don't get that.  If I was going to spend an obscene amount on an SUV, I guess the LC would be it.  But I don't think I'd ever spend an obscene amount on an SUV, when a 4Runner or a Tahoe would do anything I'd want it to do.

I'd get a Range Rover Supercharged over a Land Cruiser.

[GoCougs]

Oh how I'd love the current 4Runner with a 6sp MT and the Tundra's 381hp 5.7L V8.

Not likely to happen in the new model.

[sandertheshark]

Oh how I'd love the current 4Runner with a 6sp MT and the Tundra's 381hp 5.7L V8.

Not likely to happen in the new model.

I would also like to see that engine in an aesthetically pleasing package like the 4Runner.

[Lebowski]

I'd get a Range Rover Supercharged over a Land Cruiser.

The range rover sport/supercharged is possibly the best looking SUV on the market, IMO.

Still, I'd be a bit fearful of LR build quality/reliability.

[hotrodalex]

Oh how I'd love the current 4Runner with a 6sp MT and the Tundra's 381hp 5.7L V8.

Not likely to happen in the new model.

Is the 4Runner FWD or RWD? I'd take that engine if it's RWD, but talk about massive torque steer if it's FWD.

[GoCougs]

Is the 4Runner FWD or RWD? I'd take that engine if it's RWD, but talk about massive torque steer if it's FWD.

I was looking at them a back in 2005. Then, the V6 models were RWD/part-time 4WD, and the V8 models were full-time 4WD with variable torque split. 

[Soup DeVille]

Is the 4Runner FWD or RWD? I'd take that engine if it's RWD, but talk about massive torque steer if it's FWD.

Most of them are traditional part-time 4wd, which means they're 2Wd unless you want it to be otherwise.

[r0tor]

I'm a fan of my father's 04 4Runner V6 Limited.

The engine is smooth and has adequate power to make the thing get out of its own way.  It typically gets 23 or more mpg on trips.  Its cargo area is not hampered by a useless and heavy 3rd row bench.  The size is right - not too big yet seats 5 if you need to.  It has been completely rock solid with the only repairs coming last weekend when I helped change the rear brake rotors.  It is an ABSOLUTE BEAST in the snow... god I love driving that thing through snow drifts.

I rented a Highlander to drive out to Pittsburg last winter (didn't want to risk getting caught in snow on a 6hr drive) and it got no better mileage, had no better ride, and felt much cheesier to be honest.

The HVAC controls still drive my crazy though 

[Lebowski]

I'm a fan of my father's 04 4Runner V6 Limited.

The engine is smooth and has adequate power to make the thing get out of its own way.  It typically gets 23 or more mpg on trips.  Its cargo area is not hampered by a useless and heavy 3rd row bench.  The size is right - not too big yet seats 5 if you need to.  It has been completely rock solid with the only repairs coming last weekend when I helped change the rear brake rotors.  It is an ABSOLUTE BEAST in the snow... god I love driving that thing through snow drifts.

I rented a Highlander to drive out to Pittsburg last winter (didn't want to risk getting caught in snow on a 6hr drive) and it got no better mileage, had no better ride, and felt much cheesier to be honest.

The HVAC controls still drive my crazy though 

My dad has a V6 limited, too, I think an '04 or '05.  His is only RWD tho (we both live in FL, no real point of getting 4WD unless you go offroading).  Is yours 4WD, I assume so since you said it's a beast in the snow.  I agree the V6 seems to have plenty of power, that's what I'd opt for, seems like the only reason to go V8 is if you tow a boat or something.

I agree w/ the circular HVAC controls.  My brother has a '99 4runner and I prefer the styling of that generation, but other than styling the newer one is noticably nicer.

My dad's has been pretty much bulletproof, too.  That's good to hear you get 23mpg, hell that's not much worse than the vette, tho I drive pretty fast on the highway.

[r0tor]

yup 4wd of course!

[Panama Jack]

Pretty sure that Porsche is the most profitable company per unit, not overall (and Nissan is the most profitable high volume company per unit).

Yea i read about a year ago Porsche is the most profitable per vehicle.
Just throwing numbers out there but maybe it was close to $4k pure profit per veh?
Nissan, of the mass manufacturers was the most profitable per veh
Nissan was maybe $1700? I could be off though.

[Lebowski]

I read a report yesterday that a table of upcoming redesigns, and it had the 4runner slated for MY2011.  Damn that's a long time, I had read MY09 previously.

[MidnightDave]

Not on topic, but should be of interest to those in this thread.

Rec'd this in an email today, from 'yota.

http://www.toyotatrailteams.com/?section=2.4.8884&s_van=http://www.toyota.com/fjtrailteams&ref=