Is there a market for a compact truck?

[ifcar]

Yeah I agree it's more commonly 'image' cars.

But Mercedes has let Smart make a loss for years.  There must be some motive behind it!

It's been said a lot there's often little profit from selling small cars, but it does serve to increase brand loyalty by getting people to buy the product they can afford, then you might be able to make a lot of money out of them when they can afford something better.  I think the same logic could apply to trucks?

Also, I think you should think outside the box a bit more.  Just because they don't sell any cheaper trucks right now, doesn't mean it can't be done.  I'm not sure how many people thought Tata could make a ?2,500 car but they have.

I don't think MB was counting on Smart being a money loser.

Yes, it's possible that they would be able to get loyalty, but they would probably get loyalty to the loss-leading truck, which doesn't help really.

And making a very cheap car is much easier than making a very cheap capable truck that meets US safety and emissions requirements.

[nickdrinkwater]

I don't think MB was counting on Smart being a money loser.

Yes, it's possible that they would be able to get loyalty, but they would probably get loyalty to the loss-leading truck, which doesn't help really.

And making a very cheap car is much easier than making a very cheap capable truck that meets US safety and emissions requirements.

No, but they are, and they have sustained it.

I can't argue the second point because it's merely your opinion.

I'm not saying it's easy but it's not impossible.

I can't see you as an entrepreneur.

[93JC]

I wonder where Koko got the idea that making a small truck that meets safety and emissions standards is next to impossible.

Personally I think there is no market for compact trucks, or at the very least it's very small. The Colorado/Canyon for example is routinely thrashed by reviewers for being 'not as big as Frontier, Tacoma'. Reviewers tend to have deeper problems with these trucks than their size (interior for example), but a great many of the problems they do have are directly related to size (not being particularly powerful, low tow rating, etc.).

[ifcar]

I don't see an entrepreneur making a new loss-leader pickup truck.

[ChrisV]

Personally I think there is no market for compact trucks, or at the very least it's very small. The Colorado/Canyon for example is routinely thrashed by reviewers for being 'not as big as Frontier, Tacoma'. Reviewers tend to have deeper problems with these trucks than their size (interior for example), but a great many of the problems they do have are directly related to size (not being particularly powerful, low tow rating, etc.).

Every new vehicle is compared sizewize to the rest of the class and bigger is ALWAYS listed as better. It's the american way of supersizing everything. That doesn't mean the smaller vehicle doesn't do the job, only that the reviewers are biased by marketing in that larger for the money is always seen as the better value, whether that is a desirable trait or not.

The Ranger keeps on selling even though it's old because there is a market for fleets and small trucks. And most people buying Frontiers and Tacomas would be just as well served by modern versions of the 720 and HiLux of the '70s.

In this age of high fuel prices and backlash aginast oversized vehicles, it's a market than needs to be pushed back into the mainstream, rather than ignored. Just like as compact economy cars have gotten larger and new smaller cars have taken their place in the market, the same could happen with mini trucks.

[The Pirate]

I like small trucks too.  I'd much rather have the '95 to '04 Tacoma than the current one.

[Byteme]

I don't claim to be an automotive engineer or designer, but....................

If they can make a small car, like a Focus meet safety standards they can certainly design a cab similar to the front half of a Focus and mount that on a frame.  The cargo box is pretty straight forward.

And of course there is always something like the early 80's Dodge Rampage.  It could carry a payload of about 1100 pounds.

[280Z Turbo]

Explain how they can sell this!

[ifcar]

I don't claim to be an automotive engineer or designer, but....................

If they can make a small car, like a Focus meet safety standards they can certainly design a cab similar to the front half of a Focus and mount that on a frame.  The cargo box is pretty straight forward.

And of course there is always something like the early 80's Dodge Rampage.  It could carry a payload of about 1100 pounds.

Of course, the Rampage didn't sell.

[Soup DeVille]

Of course, the Rampage didn't sell.

He was talking about meeting engineering goals, not marketting ones.

[ifcar]

The Rampage isn't comparable to a 1976 Datsun pickup, which I thought the thread was originally discussing. That would be a truck, not a Focus with a bed.

[Galaxy]

I really liked this.

[akuma_supreme]

I don't think the Rampage failed because there was some sort of inherent weakness in the design concept (front-wheel drive compact car-based pickup) but rather because the model it was based on sucked.


Ford builds a compact pickup off an old Fiesta platform for Mexico.  I've see quite a few of them up here in Phoenix, so I'm guessing they're pretty popular.

[ifcar]

I don't think the Rampage failed because there was some sort of inherent weakness in the design concept (front-wheel drive compact car-based pickup) but rather because the model it was based on sucked.

Ford builds a compact pickup off an old Fiesta platform for Mexico.  I've see quite a few of them up here in Phoenix, so I'm guessing they're pretty popular.

But I doubt the Fiesta-truck has to meet US safety standards.


I think that in general a pickup truck buyer is going to choose a real truck at a given price point, especially if that buyer is going for a regular cab model. I just think that Rangers and Colorados are just too cheap here for something like that to catch on as anything significantly more popular than the Subaru Baja.

[Byteme]

The Rampage isn't comparable to a 1976 Datsun pickup, which I thought the thread was originally discussing. That would be a truck, not a Focus with a bed.

I thouhgt the thread was about small load haulers.  I never claimed the Rampage was comparable to anything, I just threw it out as an alternative to what is being marketed today.

[Byteme]

I don't think the Rampage failed because there was some sort of inherent weakness in the design concept (front-wheel drive compact car-based pickup) but rather because the model it was based on sucked.


Ford builds a compact pickup off an old Fiesta platform for Mexico.  I've see quite a few of them up here in Phoenix, so I'm guessing they're pretty popular.

And the price of gas stabilized so one of the main reasons for the Rampage went away.

[nickdrinkwater]

But I doubt the Fiesta-truck has to meet US safety standards.

I think the best thing the US could do to increase road safety would be to relax their ridiculous vehicle approval laws and instead make the US driving test more than a 10 minute ride around the block.

[Vinsanity]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Ranger still turned out to be cheaper than a Focus-based pickup anyway

[akuma_supreme]

I thouhgt the thread was about small load haulers.  I never claimed the Rampage was comparable to anything, I just threw it out as an alternative to what is being marketed today.

Since I was the one who started this whole ball of wax, then maybe I'm the best person to elucidate the intentions of this thread.  I recently test-drove both a Nissan Frontier and a Toyota Tacoma, and while both seemed to be nice vehicles, they were both too large for me to be comfortable driving them in bumper-to-bumper city traffic, and they were too thirsty on fuel (high-teens in city-focused driving) to really make sense.  Dejected, I started to think about my sister's little Toyota pickup (last of the "Toyota Truck" model made in the early 90's).  That thing was indestructible, hauled like a goat, and according to my sister managed gas mileage in the low 30's around town.

What surprised and disappointed me most about the Fronteir and Tacoma is that their overall interior space isn't that much larger than the older smaller Japanese pickups.  Most of the additional interior volume it seems has gone into trying to make the back part of the extended cab trucks useful for transporting people.  I gotta say that I can count on one hand the numbed of times in the last month that my car has carried more than me, and only once or twice that I needed a back seat.  The only consistent passenger in my car is my dog, and frankly I can't rationalize buying such a big monster of a vehicle if 85% of the time its going to be me driving solo.

When you look at the demographics in the US today, the plurality of households are headed by single individuals, split about evenly between single parents and those without children.  Those of us without kids certainly don't need a truck capable of carrying five passengers all the time, and I doubt that many families with small kids do either.  The next largest segment in this country are empty-nesters or couples without children.  Once again, these folks have little need for a full-size backseat.  If most Americans do not need such large monstrous trucks, then why is it manufacturers keep making trucks larger and larger?

[Hondaboy9602]

What do you think about the Toyota A-Bat Concept Akuma? From what I could tell it looks smaller than the Tacoma. It is also a Hybrid.

[SVT666]

Since I was the one who started this whole ball of wax, then maybe I'm the best person to elucidate the intentions of this thread.  I recently test-drove both a Nissan Frontier and a Toyota Tacoma, and while both seemed to be nice vehicles, they were both too large for me to be comfortable driving them in bumper-to-bumper city traffic, and they were too thirsty on fuel (high-teens in city-focused driving) to really make sense.  Dejected, I started to think about my sister's little Toyota pickup (last of the "Toyota Truck" model made in the early 90's).  That thing was indestructible, hauled like a goat, and according to my sister managed gas mileage in the low 30's around town.

I don't think so.

[akuma_supreme]

What do you think about the Toyota A-Bat Concept Akuma? From what I could tell it looks smaller than the Tacoma. It is also a Hybrid.

I think its a brilliant concept, provided they can keep the cost down.  The other thing that bugs me about the midsize trucks is that they are almost priced identical to their larger siblings.  Why bother getting a Tacoma for 25k when you can get a Tundra for 30?

[Galaxy]

I think its a brilliant concept, provided they can keep the cost down.  The other thing that bugs me about the midsize trucks is that they are almost priced identical to their larger siblings.  Why bother getting a Tacoma for 25k when you can get a Tundra for 30?

The technology used in both the Tacoma and Tundra is proberly similar so why should one be considerably cheaper? The size of a automobile has little to do with the cost of production.

[ifcar]

I think its a brilliant concept, provided they can keep the cost down.  The other thing that bugs me about the midsize trucks is that they are almost priced identical to their larger siblings.  Why bother getting a Tacoma for 25k when you can get a Tundra for 30?

It's this same mentality that would doom a mainstream sub-Tacoma pickup in the US. It would be next to impossible (probably outright impossible) to undercut a Ranger or Colorado in price, and there is a prevailing notion in the US, especially among pickup buyers, that you might as well get the biggest thing you can afford.

[Hondaboy9602]

I think its a brilliant concept, provided they can keep the cost down.  The other thing that bugs me about the midsize trucks is that they are almost priced identical to their larger siblings.  Why bother getting a Tacoma for 25k when you can get a Tundra for 30?

Why buy a Civic for 20K when you can get an Accord for 25K? It is the same question.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Why buy a Civic for 20K when you can get an Accord for 25K? It is the same question.

If Accords and Civics or Tacomans and Tundras were all the same prices, would everyone choose the bigger one? Yes. Americans suck.

[akuma_supreme]

I find it very hard to believe that something like this would not sell.  To reiterate, cities are continuing to densify across the US, increasing traffic congestion.  Combined with the rising fuel prices larger trucks are becoming a less attractive to many consumers, myself included. 

Something like this Dacia Pickup would be an attractive alternative for those of us would would like a truck utility but with more agreeable gas bills and/or a smaller ecological footprint. 

I find the argument that a vehicle like this could not comply with US safety laws to be specious at best, much like the argument that Canadian drugs (available at a fraction of the cost of US pharmaceuticals) were somehow less safe than their US equivalents.  To paraphrase, "Show me the mountains of dead Europeans!"

[Eye of the Tiger]

I want one of those!

[Hondaboy9602]

What are the specs on that Akuma, what kind-of engine, what's the bed length, etc.?

[akuma_supreme]

What are the specs on that Akuma, what kind-of engine, what's the bed length, etc.?

Here's the article on Autoblog:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/19/dacia-launches-logan-pickup-in-romania/

Bed is just under 6 feet (1.8 meters), and engines are four-bangers ranging from about 1.5-1.8 liters.  Should be good for low 30's mpg, assuming that the units aren't built by GM.  :p