How often do you fiddle with ESC settings?

[r0tor]

You need wheel spin for traction control to kick in... so I hope your talking about wheel spin going around a corner in the Boxster (oversteer) rather then wheel spin going around a corner in the Passat (terminal understeer)...

My system doesn't activate until you get decent tire spin or a yaw rate > 20deg... if you hit either on public roads just from your driving your proabably driving like an idiot. 

When the deer jumps out in front of me and i have to swerve violently at 65mph, it can independantly control each of the wheels - i can't.

[Champ]

When the deer jumps out in front of me and i have to swerve violently at 65mph, it can independantly control each of the wheels - i can't.

You're not supposed to swerve to miss deer.

[Champ]

Also, as I type this on my euro car forums there is a guy who is trying to get rid of the ABS on his MK4 GTI.

He "doesn't like the look" of the unit in the engine bay, and would rather drive without it, since he learned on a car without it.

[Raza]

You need wheel spin for traction control to kick in... so I hope your talking about wheel spin going around a corner in the Boxster (oversteer) rather then wheel spin going around a corner in the Passat (terminal understeer)...

My system doesn't activate until you get decent tire spin or a yaw rate > 20deg... if you hit either on public roads just from your driving your proabably driving like an idiot. 

When the deer jumps out in front of me and i have to swerve violently at 65mph, it can independantly control each of the wheels - i can't.

I'm talking about slippage, not full on spinning of the wheel.  It's not all smoky burnouts.

You didn't answer my question.  Why can't people just learn to drive?

[r0tor]

You're not supposed to swerve to miss deer.

have you seen the consequences of hitting a deer at a high rate of speed?  Its not pretty for your car, yourself, or the deer.

[r0tor]

I'm talking about slippage, not full on spinning of the wheel.  It's not all smoky burnouts.

You didn't answer my question.  Why can't people just learn to drive?

slippage is spinning... if the front and rear tires on each side are not going the same rate of speed, then something is spinning -shrug-

[ChrisV]

have you seen the consequences of hitting a deer at a high rate of speed?  Its not pretty for your car, yourself, or the deer.

I think the point is that usually, if you swerve to avoid them, they tend to run right to where you go to. If you don't swerve, they get out of the way. Works with a lot of animals in the road.

[Raza]

slippage is spinning... if the front and rear tires on each side are not going the same rate of speed, then something is spinning -shrug-

You can't tell the difference between minor slipping and full, smoke inducing spinning?

You should really leave ESC on always.  And encase the car in bubble wrap. 

[ChrisV]

The BMW is the first car I've owned with ESC (DSC). I tend to leave it on as it isn't intrusive and it's just laziness keeping me from reaching down and pressing the button to defeat it. But I wouldn't care if it didn't have it, either.

I love the disclaimer in the owners manual: "cars equipped with DSC are still governed by the laws of physics."

[Raza]

I think the point is that usually, if you swerve to avoid them, they tend to run right to where you go to. If you don't swerve, they get out of the way. Works with a lot of animals in the road.

I came up on a few with my Boxster.  All it took was the squealing of the front tires as they started to lock and they dispersed quickly!

[NomisR]

Don't have it in one of my car and leave it on the other one because it's not intrusive at all.  I can get a nice drift in it with it ever coming in. 

[Vinsanity]

I love the disclaimer in the owners manual: "cars equipped with DSC are still governed by the laws of physics."

haha my owner's manual says the same thing


I feel the same as you about DSC. It doesn't bother me enough to make me want to press the off button, but I wouldn't mind not having it at all, either.

[Champ]

have you seen the consequences of hitting a deer at a high rate of speed?  Its not pretty for your car, yourself, or the deer.

Yes I have.

Just a fun little tidbit for you:
If you run into a deer on the road, it's comprehensive coverage on your insurance.
If you swerve to avoid a deer and hit a tree (or another car) it is considered a collision and your rates will go up if you claim.

The reasoning is that so many people swerve to avoid deer (or other animals/things) and cause other accidents that it's much safer overall just to hit it.

Here is some good reading:
From the Insurance Information Institute
http://www.iii.org/individuals/auto/lifesaving/deercar/

Brake firmly when you notice a deer in or near your path, but stay in your lane. Many serious crashes occur when drivers swerve to avoid a deer and hit another vehicle or lose control of their cars.

From the West Virginia Insurance Commision
http://www.wvinsurance.gov/brochures/pdf/brochure_deer_facts.pdf

Striking the deer is usually the safest action to take.  Motorists making evasive maneuvers are typically involved in a more serious crash.  If a collision seems inevitable, hit the deer while remaining in full control of your vehicle.

From the Michigan State Police
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1593_3504_22760-95455--,00.html

Don't swerve! Brake firmly, hold onto the steering wheel and bring your vehicle to a controlled stop.

Hopefully you get the picture.

[NomisR]

One question though, I haven't had the balls to try it, but when you get lift oversteer, I assume that ESC kicks in by cutting power or applying brakes, how does that help keep the car from spinning?

[Raza]

One question though, I haven't had the balls to try it, but when you get lift oversteer, I assume that ESC kicks in by cutting power or applying brakes, how does that help keep the car from spinning?

I'm not sure as to what "ESC" refers to, honestly.  I go by the two most generic acronyms I can find:  TCS and ESP.  ESP usually encompasses TCS, but TCS doesn't cover ESP.  ESP acts on all four wheels and TCS only acts on driven wheels. 

In this case, and I'm just surmising, an ESP system would be able to brake the wheel on the outside of the spin (that is, if the car is treated like a pendulum, then the outside wheel is the one on the end that moving out of the proper motion of the car) and allow the inside wheel to pull the car back in line.  Some ESP systems can accelerate single wheels as well. 

I'm not sure about that though.  I've only even gone through LTO (in front and rear drive cars) with TCS or ESP switched off.

[r0tor]

Yes I have.

Just a fun little tidbit for you:
If you run into a deer on the road, it's comprehensive coverage on your insurance.
If you swerve to avoid a deer and hit a tree (or another car) it is considered a collision and your rates will go up if you claim.

The reasoning is that so many people swerve to avoid deer (or other animals/things) and cause other accidents that it's much safer overall just to hit it.

I live in a deer swamped area.  I have had at least a half dozen people nail a dear within a few blocks of my house.  Since the speed limit is 55mph, the accidents range from significant to nearly fatal when striking a deer.  A family friend was almost killed when the deer came through his windshield after he hit it.

I'll take my chances at swerving thank you very much... its worked several times now.  And while some deer do run, the saying "stared at you like a deer caught in the headlights" came about for a reason...

[r0tor]

ESC - Electronic Stability Control
ESP - Electronic Stability Program
DSC - Dynamic Stability Control

they all are the same thing... monitor wheel spin and yaw rates and can modulate the throttle and control braking to individual wheels to make the car go where your steering wheel is pointing it to

TCS - Traction Control System

just modulates the gas or brakes to limit wheel spin

[NomisR]

ESC - Electronic Stability Control
ESP - Electronic Stability Program
DSC - Dynamic Stability Control

they all are the same thing... monitor wheel spin and yaw rates and can modulate the throttle and control braking to individual wheels to make the car go where your steering wheel is pointing it to

TCS - Traction Control System

just modulates the gas or brakes to limit wheel spin

Wait a minute!!!  Isn't that what your feet are for?  What do you need a computer to tell you how to do that and do it for you? 

[CJ]

It can do it faster.

[Raza]

It can do it faster.

Computers can't think.  Computers can't evaluate a situation and determine the proper course of action.  They're dumb machines that do as they're programmed. 

I'll bet on my brain over some computer. 

[r0tor]

Wait a minute!!!  Isn't that what your feet are for?  What do you need a computer to tell you how to do that and do it for you? 

like ABS, it has 4 brake pedals... i have one

[MX793]

Computers can't think.  Computers can't evaluate a situation and determine the proper course of action.  They're dumb machines that do as they're programmed. 

I'll bet on my brain over some computer. 

Computers respond as programmed when a predetermined set of circumstances occur.

In a sudden turn of events (e.g. a deer suddenly jumps out in front of you), so does a human being.  Reflex reactions are not voluntary or pre-meditated, they are automatic, immediate, involuntary, and pre-programmed actions in response to a set of outside criteria/stimuli.

[Raza]

Computers respond as programmed when a predetermined set of circumstances occur.

In a sudden turn of events (e.g. a deer suddenly jumps out in front of you), so does a human being.  Reflex reactions are not voluntary or pre-meditated, they are automatic, immediate, involuntary, and pre-programmed actions in response to a set of outside criteria/stimuli.

If you say so. 

If I drove with the ASM on in my car, I'd be dead.  That much I can guarantee.  I needed to avoid a massive accident, and I was able to because I was able to spin my wheels, upset my rear, and evade a 6000 pound SUV. 

So you let the computer do your thinking.  I'll go with me.

[CALL_911]

If you say so. 

If I drove with the ASM on in my car, I'd be dead.  That much I can guarantee.  I needed to avoid a massive accident, and I was able to because I was able to spin my wheels, upset my rear, and evade a 6000 pound SUV. 

So you let the computer do your thinking.  I'll go with me.

I'll go with my pet monkey.

But these systems should be fully defeatable.

[MX793]

If you say so. 

If I drove with the ASM on in my car, I'd be dead.  That much I can guarantee.  I needed to avoid a massive accident, and I was able to because I was able to spin my wheels, upset my rear, and evade a 6000 pound SUV. 

So you let the computer do your thinking.  I'll go with me.

Spinning your front tires will not upset your rears and put you into oversteer.  Spinning the front tires will put you into understeer.  I know that not just from first hand experience, but from the very physics of the scenario.  More than likely you instinctively mashed the gas in hopes of accelerating away from the danger (or you simply panicked and put your foot down, which is a common response) and then let off when the tires broke loose (no doubt a trained response) which in turn upset the rears when the fronts grabbed traction again and shifted weight forward.  You avoided that accident with quick reflexes and a bit of luck.

It is a well proven fact that reactions to sudden events are pure reflex, not thought-out and conscious courses of action.  The conscious part of the brain simply cannot operate that fast, the subconscious (through muscle memory) can.  A reflex response can be a trained response, but in the heat of the moment it is not a conscious reaction, you simply automatically act in the way you've been programmed, or trained, to best respond to the situation.  When somebody hurls a rock at you, you duck.  You don't take the time to process that a rock is hurtling towards you and then process all of the possible responses and outcomes, you automatically and subconsciously resort to the response you have been programmed to perform:  Duck.

[850CSi]

I typically leave it on since it almost never kicks in and it's another level of safety. I turn it off if I plan on doing some spirited driving on dry pavement, if I plan on fooling around in a parking lot (either dry or wet conditions), or if I'm driving in heavy snow (I find it to be largely counterintuitive in that situation). Other times in bad weather, I'll enable DTC, which works kind of like an electronic LSD and is less intrusive than having DSC fully activated.

[Raza]

Spinning your front tires will not upset your rears and put you into oversteer.  Spinning the front tires will put you into understeer.  I know that not just from first hand experience, but from the very physics of the scenario.  More than likely you instinctively mashed the gas in hopes of accelerating away from the danger (or you simply panicked and put your foot down, which is a common response) and then let off when the tires broke loose (no doubt a trained response) which in turn upset the rears when the fronts grabbed traction again and shifted weight forward.  You avoided that accident with quick reflexes and a bit of luck.

It is a well proven fact that reactions to sudden events are pure reflex, not thought-out and conscious courses of action.  The conscious part of the brain simply cannot operate that fast, the subconscious (through muscle memory) can.  A reflex response can be a trained response, but in the heat of the moment it is not a conscious reaction, you simply automatically act in the way you've been programmed, or trained, to best respond to the situation.  When somebody hurls a rock at you, you duck.  You don't take the time to process that a rock is hurtling towards you and then process all of the possible responses and outcomes, you automatically and subconsciously resort to the response you have been programmed to perform:  Duck.

Actually, I hit the brakes first, then the gas when I realized that I wasn't going to stop in time (it was wet), then I turned away, hit the gas, spun the fronts, let off, kicked the rear, and got back on the gas.

Do you want to tell me more about things I did?  Perhaps you can tell me how I brush my teeth in the morning?  Up and down or side to side?  Do you feel lucky?

[MX793]

Actually, I hit the brakes first, then the gas when I realized that I wasn't going to stop in time (it was wet), then I turned away, hit the gas, spun the fronts, let off, kicked the rear, and got back on the gas.

Do you want to tell me more about things I did?  Perhaps you can tell me how I brush my teeth in the morning?  Up and down or side to side?  Do you feel lucky?

Odds are, the whole ordeal was practically over before your conscious mind had even taken full inventory of the situation.

I've bailed my ass out of some harry situations myself, but I won't for a second claim it was all due to conscious decision making during the event.  I'm not nearly that arrogant.  It was the result of trained reflexes developed from practice.  The only conscious decision making I can credit was the choice to practice things like controlling a skid in empty parking lots and such so that when I really needed to, reflex was able to respond to the problem appropriately while my conscious mind was going "oh sh!t" and trying to take in all that was happening.

[sportyaccordy]

If you say so. 

If I drove with the ASM on in my car, I'd be dead.  That much I can guarantee.  I needed to avoid a massive accident, and I was able to because I was able to spin my wheels, upset my rear, and evade a 6000 pound SUV. 

So you let the computer do your thinking.  I'll go with me.

There is no reason anyone should have to "upset the rear" of their car to avoid an accident.

Face it, electronic nannies are a hindrance to wreckless driving. There is no other reason to not have it. I remember once I was in a friend of mine's Maxima, and we were doing about 80 or so; and someone cut in front of him in the highway. I assume he didn't have ESC, because his car was all over the road... we finally came to a stop facing traffic. I know you guys are all Schumacher^10000000 so you would have had it on track with a hint of trail braking and opposite lock... but in the real world people actually do lose control of their cars sometimes. A GOOD ESC system will keep you out of those situations while not intruding on controlled driving experiences.

When I drive my dad's car, the only reason the TSC light comes on is if I gun it from a stop. Otherwise it stays off. But I leave the system on, because 1. 340HP is a lot to lose control of, and 2. There's no reason to unleash that all in a residential neighborhood anyways.

Other than the two tire blowouts I've had I've never needed ESC. But in the event that I were to lose control of the car I think it would be a lifesaver.

I don't have ABS now and that sucks too, sometimes. But admittedly, if you're locking up tires on the street you're (I'm) doing something wrong that no system beyond your own self control can correct.

[Raza]

If my ASM were on that day, I'd be dead.  And my two little cousins would be dead too.  It's as simple as that.