CarSPIN Editorial: UAW Has Kept American Cars Down

[dazzleman]

BUMP

In light of all the articles about problems with Ford, GM and Chrysler, I thought it might be interesting to take a fresh look at this topic.

[Catman]

Do you think the unions are getting it yet?

[dazzleman]

Do you think the unions are getting it yet?

No.

[Catman]

No.

Maybe they will when the company they work for goes under and they're collecting unemployment.

[dazzleman]

Maybe they will when the company they work for goes under and they're collecting unemployment.

They're slow learners, actually.  That's been proven many times.  They'll find somebody else to blame.

In fairness, management at those companies have generally sucked for quite some time.  But unions have been a major drag on the companies.  I think it's no coincidence that those who are successfully producing cars in the US stayed away from the upper midwest and its strong unions, and went down south without unions.

[Catman]

They're slow learners, actually.  That's been proven many times.  They'll find somebody else to blame.

In fairness, management at those companies have generally sucked for quite some time.  But unions have been a major drag on the companies.  I think it's no coincidence that those who are successfully producing cars in the US stayed away from the upper midwest and its strong unions, and went down south without unions.

Very true.

[Raza]

I know from experience that it's really so much easier psychologically to blame someone else.  And it's generally their fault anyway.

[The Pirate]

Diffuson of responsibility is a powerful thing.

[AnotherVictim]

I just read this for the first time. ( I'm a little slow..  ).

I especially agree with Catman's original post, having a couple of friends in a union. Both of them share his opinion. I have "associates" that are unionized and fit into the "entitlement" cateogory.

I'm not sure what percentage of people working for GM/Ford are of the entitlement mindset when working, but I imagine even if it's 20-30% of the workforce, that's a scary amount of people to have working for you that aren't producing very well, in companies the size of Ford and GM.

I suspect bankruptcy is going to be the only way things will change for these two unfortunately.

[omicron]

Health care 'entitlements' appear, on face value, to be astoundingly high in the US. Is this for some specific reason, or were far too many companies just sucked in to a 'SURELY no-one would fall for this, but hey, we'll try it anyway' plan?

[850CSi]

Wait, did I misread going too quickly, or is this true...

With benefits, a UAW worker is getting... $135K a Year !?

Are you shitting me!?

But the question remains, if Toyota and the other Japanese manufacturers are paying similar wages, why don't they have the same problems? Benefits?


I think Unions are a necessary evil. They have their downsides, but I certainly don't trust big business.

[The Pirate]

Wait, did I misread going too quickly, or is this true...

With benefits, a UAW worker is getting... $135K a Year !?

Are you shitting me!?

But the question remains, if Toyota and the other Japanese manufacturers are paying similar wages, why don't they have the same problems? Benefits?


I think Unions are a necessary evil. They have their downsides, but I certainly don't trust big business.

I remember reading an article where union guys were bitching about not making enough money, so they were having to sell their second homes up on the UP, not being able to get a new vehicle every year, sell of some of their snowmobiles and crap like that.  I'm sorry, but getting rid of some toys and luxuries is an inconvenience, but it is hardly entering into the throes of poverty.  What about people who work two jobs and can barely put food on the table for their children?  I feel that is more of problem than UAW guys having to settle for being like the rest of middle class America and actually working hard to achieve what they desire in life.



I think unions had an important place in the era of the Industrial Revolution, where serious injuries due to unsafe work conditions were a very real occurence.  But it's not like that today, we have OSHA and other governmental bureaucracies that regulate that sort of thing.  Union guys (the UAW in particular) need to step back and take a look at the big picture.  The job market and economy and all that isn't like it was 100 years ago (or even 30 years ago).  Changes need to be made, otherwise a lot of people and corporations are going to be in serious trouble (some already are, for that matter).

[Raza]

My word!  They had to sell their vacation homes?  They had to sell their HOMES!?

I'm switched over.  Go UAW.  I'm joining right now. 



EDIT:  They're effing hold hands for Chrissake.  You can't beat that.  You want to make those people live in one home?  Wankers!  Wankers!  WANKERS!

[850CSi]

What about people who work two jobs and can barely put food on the table for their children?

They're not required to have any education, either!

[dazzleman]

I think the Big 3's benefits are too liberal.

For example, my dad has his health care paid for by GM.  Why?  Did he ever work for GM?

The answer is no.  His wife, whom he married long after she retired from GM, was able to put him on her benefits and either no extra charge, or a minimal charge.

He could get health benefits from his own former employer, but the plan GM offers is much more generous.

I'm glad he has such a good plan, but it seems absurd to me that GM is paying for the health care of a man who married a former GM employee 10-15 years after she retired.

[omicron]

I think the Big 3's benefits are too liberal.

For example, my dad has his health care paid for by GM. Why? Did he ever work for GM?

The answer is no. His wife, whom he married long after she retired from GM, was able to put him on her benefits and either no extra charge, or a minimal charge.

He could get health benefits from his own former employer, but the plan GM offers is much more generous.

I'm glad he has such a good plan, but it seems absurd to me that GM is paying for the health care of a man who married a former GM employee 10-15 years after she retired.

That's great for your father, and frightening for anyone attempting change at the Big 3. How on earth do you rid an industry of such an inherent system like that? It's not as simple as attempting a change in business strategy - some would see the reduction in such benefits as a direct imposition on their rights, so by seeking to lessen the union influence one only angers them more.

How wonderful!

[TBR]

$135k, that is ridiculous. And the cost of living isn't exactly high in the midwest (upper or not) either! I'd put money on it that the white collar workers at GM are on average making less, that is why GM has been managed so poorly.

[J86]

Maybe rather than pissing and moaning about how well UAW workers have it, we should take a look at our society and discover why it is popularly considered to be a PRIVELEGE to have basic things like comprehensive health care as opposed to a basic, inherent right.

If these things were adequately provided for by (gasp) a central government, private companies would not need to.

Let the floodgates open...

[TBR]

This thread is about the UAW and the Big 3, not about politics.

[Raza]

Maybe rather than pissing and moaning about how well UAW workers have it, we should take a look at our society and discover why it is popularly considered to be a PRIVELEGE to have basic things like comprehensive health care as opposed to a basic, inherent right.

If these things were adequately provided for by (gasp) a central government, private companies would not need to.

Let the floodgates open...

New sig pic for you:

[The Pirate]

Maybe rather than pissing and moaning about how well UAW workers have it, we should take a look at our society and discover why it is popularly considered to be a PRIVELEGE to have basic things like comprehensive health care as opposed to a basic, inherent right.

If these things were adequately provided for by (gasp) a central government, private companies would not need to.

Let the floodgates open...

I'm only replying to this because I've spent enough time here to realize that everybody at Carspin is able to engage in meaningful, respectful debates regardless of political affiliation.  And let's be honest about these debates, they are thought provoking and fun, but seldom turn Democrats into Republicans or Republicans into Democrats.


I do agree that I like the idea of healthcare being provided by a central government.  I don't know enough about the pros and cons to make a fully informed decision, but it is something that I think is worth a look at.

[J86]

This thread is about the UAW and the Big 3, not about politics.

C'mon, people 'round here know me well enough to humour me!

[TBR]

I don't think it would work, doctors are already threatening to refuse to see medicare patients over money.

[GoCougs]

Plenty of global US corporations not only survive but thrive in the presence of the evil spector that is the US for-profit healthcare system.

Nationalized healthcare is a train wreck, and will never, ever, ever, ever, ever exist in the US for the profit motive is far too powerful, and important.

Think we'd have these vastly improved medical technologies; equipment, procedures, medicine, etc., had there been little or no profit motive the last 50 years?

[Raza]

I'm only replying to this because I've spent enough time here to realize that everybody at Carspin is able to engage in meaningful, respectful debates regardless of political affiliation.  And let's be honest about these debates, they are thought provoking and fun, but seldom turn Democrats into Republicans or Republicans into Democrats.


I do agree that I like the idea of healthcare being provided by a central government.  I don't know enough about the pros and cons to make a fully informed decision, but it is something that I think is worth a look at.

And I just responded with a glib remark.

As it stands, we, as a nation, spend more money on healthcare than European countries that provide it.  That's one point for you guys. 

[850CSi]

This thread is about the UAW and the Big 3, not about politics.

I think you can't ignore the political component.

[The Pirate]

And I just responded with a glib remark.

As it stands, we, as a nation, spend more money on healthcare than European countries that provide it.  That's one point for you guys. 

To be perfectly honest, I am enough of a realist to realize that this probably something that never will happen, and even if it were to occur, it would not be without it's share of problems.  That being said, I still think it deserves a look, as other countries have implemented that program with relative success.  Although, change isn't something that comes easily, and for nationalized health care to successfully be enacted in this country, there would have to be some significant revisions, revisions that realistically aren't going to happen.

I will concede that with the exception of the UAW's stronghold on GM in terms of a health care package, privatized medical care does generally function in this country.  I think a happy medium that would satisfy everybody is to find a way to make said health care costs a little more in control, so companies that currently offer benefits can continue to do so, and maybe even offer more.  My dad's company recently had to switch HMO's due to high costs, and the end result was higher premiums for employees and worse coverage.  I understand and encourage profit motive as much as the next guy, but medical costs are getting a little out of hand.

[The Pirate]

This thread is about the UAW and the Big 3, not about politics.

For better or for worse, politics seem to apply to most things of this nature.

[AnotherVictim]

Oh the irony.

Guys, your big neighbor to the north has had national healthcare for years... but its either being mismanaged on epic proportions, or naturally doomed to fail for a myriad of reasons. Parts of the country are already starting to have to resort to privately owned clinics just to have examinations done for people in some pretty dire straights.  Long long waiting lists for many health care services in the public system.

Our taxes are fairly high because of the system as well. I have no idea what an average american would have to pay for health care insurance, so I have no way to compare the costs between what we pay in taxes towards HC and what americans throw in per year in their health plans.

What I do see, if some of the stats are true for some of the Health benefits plans UAW workers get, they appear to be living pretty damn good.

[TBR]

I think you can't ignore the political component.

I know, but it would be nice if we could.

I hate politics so much.