California: Police Raid Car Enthusiast Gathering, Generate Revenue

[Tave]

I think the OT number is misinterpreted. I think the piece meant to say, "OT pay came out of a 500K grant from the federal government," not that they used it all up on that one night.

[Soup DeVille]

I think the OT number is misinterpreted. I think the piece meant to say, "OT pay came out of a 500K grant from the federal government," not that they used it all up on that one night.

It's mis-written in the article, yes.

[GoCougs]

I think the OT number is misinterpreted. I think the piece meant to say, "OT pay came out of a 500K grant from the federal government," not that they used it all up on that one night.

Okay, with SdV's post and then re-reading the "article", yes, it was misrepresented.

People in the area (I have family just north of LA) are sick and tired of the street racer mentality.

[James Young]

People in the area (I have family just north of LA) are sick and tired of the street racer mentality.

Horsesh!t.  I have never heard a single word -- complaint or otherwise -- regarding street racing.  The areas north of LA are a world away from the desert that dominates Riverside County.

[Catman]

Horsesh!t.  I have never heard a single word -- complaint or otherwise -- regarding street racing.  The areas north of LA are a world away from the desert that dominates Riverside County.

So police never get complaints about the roving car show and racing? 

[Soup DeVille]

So police never get complaints about the roving car show and racing? 

No, James Young never gets complaints about the roving car show and racing.

I don't either, but of course I live a couple thousand miles away from Riverside, and don't know exactly what it's like over there.

I do however commonly go to such impromptu gatherings in the Detroit area. To say that such gatherings are exclusivley for street racers is ignorance. The vast majority of people thatgo to these kind of things go to meet other people with the same interests, shoot the shit for a while, show off their cars, and that sort of thing.

Does street racing sometimes get arranged at these places? Well, yeah it does. It's not the rule, and it's not the norm, but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't happen. I'd be naive also if I said that a stolen part has never been sold at such a gathering, or hell: I'd bet that drug deals have been done at them too.

That doesn't mean that everybody at one of these things is there for those reasons; just like any time you have a gathering of people, you have illicit things happen, but the vast majority of the people aren't there to cause any trouble to anybody and have no intent of comitting any crime beyond that of simple speeding.

I think that there's a lot of presumption of guilt by association going on here.

[Catman]

No, James Young never gets complaints about the roving car show and racing.

I don't either, but of course I live a couple thousand miles away from Riverside, and don't know exactly what it's like over there.

I do however commonly go to such impromptu gatherings in the Detroit area. To say that such gatherings are exclusivley for street racers is ignorance. The vast majority of people thatgo to these kind of things go to meet other people with the same interests, shoot the shit for a while, show off their cars, and that sort of thing.

Does street racing sometimes get arranged at these places? Well, yeah it does. It's not the rule, and it's not the norm, but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't happen. I'd be naive also if I said that a stolen part has never been sold at such a gathering, or hell: I'd bet that drug deals have been done at them too.

That doesn't mean that everybody at one of these things is there for those reasons; just like any time you have a gathering of people, you have illicit things happen, but the vast majority of the people aren't there to cause any trouble to anybody and have no intent of comitting any crime beyond that of simple speeding.

I think that there's a lot of presumption of guilt by association going on here.

Yeah, I know most gatherings don't cause issues, we have them here all the time.  The street racer gatherings are well documented.  It's a big problem for business owners, residents and public safety in general.  I think the shooing away scenario just pushes them to another location.

[Soup DeVille]

Yeah, I know most gatherings don't cause issues, we have them here all the time.  The street racer gatherings are well documented.  It's a big problem for business owners, residents and public safety in general.  I think the shooing away scenario just pushes them to another location.

The thing is, the most dangerous of the street racers don't just sit around in a parking lot and shoot the shit. The show up, arrange a race, and leave in a very short time. In other words, they're the least likely to be around when the crackdown goes down; and yet everybody else gets the brunt of the attention whether or not they ever had any plans on doing anything more than that.

[dsred]

Again, and I appreciate LEO's and most of what they do, but this type of thing is indefensible. Period.

Seriously, the way things for us as a society are moving lately in regards to "mommy-ing" things down are scaring me right now...

[bing_oh]

Does street racing sometimes get arranged at these places? Well, yeah it does. It's not the rule, and it's not the norm, but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't happen. I'd be naive also if I said that a stolen part has never been sold at such a gathering, or hell: I'd bet that drug deals have been done at them too.

That doesn't mean that everybody at one of these things is there for those reasons; just like any time you have a gathering of people, you have illicit things happen, but the vast majority of the people aren't there to cause any trouble to anybody and have no intent of comitting any crime beyond that of simple speeding.

I think that there's a lot of presumption of guilt by association going on here.

From the quotes by the local business owners, I'd say this has become an ongoing problem at this particular location. What happened was simple...the police made a "show of force" to address a problem. When lesser enforcement fails to curb a problem, such shows of force can be an effective tool. Their intent is to gain voluntary compliance by letting vioators know, without a doubt, that there will be zero tolerance for such activities and the enforcement will be swift, sure, and overpowering in scope. I strongly suspect that this wasn't intended to address the problem at just this location but to send a wider message. For that reason, the enforcement effort must also be dramatic...2 cruisers showing up to shoo away loitering kids doesn't send the same message as dozens of cruisers showing up and every conceivable violation be written.

And, just for the record, I doubt the 50 cruisers and 100+ officers cited in the first article is accurate. Reading the article with an eye toward detail calls its overall accuracy into question. But, assuming that it is an accurate number, the cops were still outnumbered on the scene, given that the article quotes the number of ricers as 150 or more.

[bing_oh]

I think the OT number is misinterpreted. I think the piece meant to say, "OT pay came out of a 500K grant from the federal government," not that they used it all up on that one night.

Probably true, but I also suspect that the comment about the OT was written that way very intentionally. The writer was trying to make a statement about the enforcement being a waste of money, and such a big number helped to drive his point home. The real cost was almost certainly dramatically less, but then the punch of the supposed wasted funds would be lost.

[Soup DeVille]

From the quotes by the local business owners, I'd say this has become an ongoing problem at this particular location. What happened was simple...the police made a "show of force" to address a problem. When lesser enforcement fails to curb a problem, such shows of force can be an effective tool. Their intent is to gain voluntary compliance by letting vioators know, without a doubt, that there will be zero tolerance for such activities and the enforcement will be swift, sure, and overpowering in scope. I strongly suspect that this wasn't intended to address the problem at just this location but to send a wider message. For that reason, the enforcement effort must also be dramatic...2 cruisers showing up to shoo away loitering kids doesn't send the same message as dozens of cruisers showing up and every conceivable violation be written.

And, just for the record, I doubt the 50 cruisers and 100+ officers cited in the first article is accurate. Reading the article with an eye toward detail calls its overall accuracy into question. But, assuming that it is an accurate number, the cops were still outnumbered on the scene, given that the article quotes the number of ricers as 150 or more.

I don't see any quotes from business owners in the article posted, you must be referring to somebody else's story on this same incident.


What activities are they showing that there will be zero tolerance towards? Gathering in a parking lot and talking,or street racing? Once again, a see a lot of guilt by asociation here. It may in fact be a serious problem in the area, but they should be going after the truly dangerous and illegal activities if that is what the problem is, not just applying every possible fine to a group because they are suspected that they may be involved with people who are making things more dangerous.

I have no doubt that doing things like this may be effective, but just because a certain tactic is effective does not mean it is reasonable or justified.

[280Z Turbo]

I'd feel pretty shitty if this happened to me while I was at a meet with my Z.

[bing_oh]

I don't see any quotes from business owners in the article posted, you must be referring to somebody else's story on this same incident.

Please refer to Reply #12 for the second article posted about the incident.

What activities are they showing that there will be zero tolerance towards? Gathering in a parking lot and talking,or street racing? Once again, a see a lot of guilt by asociation here. It may in fact be a serious problem in the area, but they should be going after the truly dangerous and illegal activities if that is what the problem is, not just applying every possible fine to a group because they are suspected that they may be involved with people who are making things more dangerous.

I have no doubt that doing things like this may be effective, but just because a certain tactic is effective does not mean it is reasonable or justified.

I hear about "guilt by association" alot from people...usually people whom I catch in the middle of doing things they shouldn't be doing. My response is, if they don't want to be accused of criminal activity, then don't hang around people DOING criminal activity.

You can defend these people with technicalities all you like. Were they technically involved in street racing at the time the officers arrived? Maybe not, but I'll bet they weren't charged with street racing either. They were charged with other, totally legitimate violations. Were there people there involved in street racing? I'll bet there were. And, those people were given a very distinct message.

So, we've established that the actions of the police were legal and the violations were legitimate. Was there an alterior motive...a message to be sent...in their enforcement? Yep. And how, exactly, is it a bad thing to send a message that deters crime?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Please refer to Reply #12 for the second article posted about the incident.

I hear about "guilt by association" alot from people...usually people whom I catch in the middle of doing things they shouldn't be doing. My response is, if they don't want to be accused of criminal activity, then don't hang around people DOING criminal activity.

You can defend these people with technicalities all you like. Were they technically involved in street racing at the time the officers arrived? Maybe not, but I'll bet they weren't charged with street racing either. They were charged with other, totally legitimate violations. Were there people there involved in street racing? I'll bet there were. And, those people were given a very distinct message.

So, we've established that the actions of the police were legal and the violations were legitimate. Was there an alterior motive...a message to be sent...in their enforcement? Yep. And how, exactly, is it a bad thing to send a message that deters crime?

At best, your justification for "guilt by association" is Un-American. At worst it is the work of someone with a political agenda which rivals that of a KKK Grand Wizard.

[bing_oh]

At best, your justification for "guilt by association" is Un-American. At worst it is the work of someone with a political agenda which rivals that of a KKK Grand Wizard.

Thank you for your insightful, mature, and thought-provoking contribution to this debate.

And Raza wondered why I didn't want to get into this discussion...

[Eye of the Tiger]

Thank you for your insightful, mature, and thought-provoking contribution to this debate.

And Raza wondered why I didn't want to get into this discussion...

Why do you even post on this forum? You do not seem like a car enthusiast. You just come here to harass everyone, just like the cops in the story. The motives for everything you say here are always biased towards creating some perfect, golden image of cops and the law. I really do not have time for your nonsense, anyway, because as a car enthusiast, I am too busy beating my childern because they keep getting in the way of running my meth lab.

[280Z Turbo]

Why do you even post on this forum? You do not seem like a car enthusiast. You just come here to harass everyone, just like the cops in the story. The motives for everything you say here are always biased towards creating some perfect, golden image of cops and the law. I really do not have time for your nonsense, anyway, because as a car enthusiast, I am too busy beating my childern because they keep getting in the way of running my meth lab.

Sarcasm/satire is not good to use on these types of posters. It makes them super-arrogant.

[bing_oh]

Sarcasm/satire is not good to use on these types of posters. It makes them super-arrogant.

Was that implying that his comment would make me super-arrogant or that my comment made him super-arrogant?

[bing_oh]

Why do you even post on this forum? You do not seem like a car enthusiast. You just come here to harass everyone, just like the cops in the story. The motives for everything you say here are always biased towards creating some perfect, golden image of cops and the law. I really do not have time for your nonsense, anyway, because as a car enthusiast, I am too busy beating my childern because they keep getting in the way of running my meth lab.

Not that it has any impact on this discussion but I happen to be an enthusiast of classic muscle cars and British sports cars. I don't consider the plastic rice rockets today to be anything more than wind-up toys and rolling stereo systems.

My motives for posting in this particular section is to inject a little knowledge of law enforcement into the discussions here. Most people in the general public have little or no real understand of LE and why we do the things we do the way we do them. They believe what the see in the fictional worlds on TV and in the movies.

Not that you really care about any of that. You prefer to be close-minded and use belittling comments instead of logical debate. Quite frankly, you're the kind of person who I absolutely can't stand talking to.

[280Z Turbo]

Everybody take cover! It's getting really condescending in here!

[Soup DeVille]

Please refer to Reply #12 for the second article posted about the incident.

I hear about "guilt by association" alot from people...usually people whom I catch in the middle of doing things they shouldn't be doing. My response is, if they don't want to be accused of criminal activity, then don't hang around people DOING criminal activity.

You can defend these people with technicalities all you like. Were they technically involved in street racing at the time the officers arrived? Maybe not, but I'll bet they weren't charged with street racing either. They were charged with other, totally legitimate violations. Were there people there involved in street racing? I'll bet there were. And, those people were given a very distinct message.

So, we've established that the actions of the police were legal and the violations were legitimate. Was there an alterior motive...a message to be sent...in their enforcement? Yep. And how, exactly, is it a bad thing to send a message that deters crime?

It's a bad thing to send a message that deters crime when it's unduly harsh and the punishment that is being doled out is being given based on the mere assumption of greater crimes.

For the same reason you can't arrest all the people that are standing on a street corner because you think they might be doing something, you shouldn't give citations with unterior motives or because you think they might "be up to no good." You should know better than me that n this country, then end does not justify the means.

Yes, there is a difference between public and private property in that example, but as far as I could tell, this action did not happen at the bequest of the property owners, nor did they make any claim that the participants were trespassing. The business owners in the area did say that they were at times being a nuisance and driving away customers, but no citations were mentioned that involved loitering, creating a distubance, trespassing or any of the other laws that might pertain to that sort of behavior. They were after supposed street racers, and using money given to them expressly for that purpose.

I think you're also a bit naive to think that this deters anything. It deters the use of a single gathering place. It deters the social aspect to the car scene. It doesn't deter organized street racing, which I think we can agree should be the real target, because it brings with it real danger to people.

[280Z Turbo]

Not that it has any impact on this discussion but I happen to be an enthusiast of classic muscle cars and British sports cars. I don't consider the plastic rice rockets today to be anything more than wind-up toys and rolling stereo systems.

Do you lump all Japanese compacts into this "plastic rice rockets" category?

[bing_oh]

Everybody take cover! It's getting really condescending in here!

How, exactly, was I being condescending? Guess I should apologize for trying to give others a little specialized information about something in my job field. Next time somebody wants information about the law, I'll be sure not to chime in...wouldn't want to be condescending, after all.

[Soup DeVille]

How, exactly, was I being condescending? Guess I should apologize for trying to give others a little specialized information about something in my job field. Next time somebody wants information about the law, I'll be sure not to chime in...wouldn't want to be condescending, after all.

"Not that you really care about any of that. You prefer to be close-minded and use belittling comments instead of logical debate. Quite frankly, you're the kind of person who I absolutely can't stand talking to."

Not to say it wasn't provoked, but you can't deny that sounds pretty condescending.

[bing_oh]

It's a bad thing to send a message that deters crime when it's unduly harsh and the punishment that is being doled out is being given based on the mere assumption of greater crimes.

For the same reason you can't arrest all the people that are standing on a street corner because you think they might be doing something, you shouldn't give citations with unterior motives or because you think they might "be up to no good." You should know better than me that n this country, then end does not justify the means.

Yes, there is a difference between public and private property in that example, but as far as I could tell, this action did not happen at the bequest of the property owners, nor did they make any claim that the participants were trespassing. The business owners in the area did say that they were at times being a nuisance and driving away customers, but no citations were mentioned that involved loitering, creating a distubance, trespassing or any of the other laws that might pertain to that sort of behavior. They were after supposed street racers, and using money given to them expressly for that purpose.

I think you're also a bit naive to think that this deters anything. It deters the use of a single gathering place. It deters the social aspect to the car scene. It doesn't deter organized street racing, which I think we can agree should be the real target, because it brings with it real danger to people.

People were not being punished on the mere assumption of greater crimes. Let's not forget that the violations were totally legitimate (if minor) in nature. We in LE work within the laws that are passed by the legislature. Sometimes, enforcement of minor laws is a means to an end in crime deterrence. Nor was the punishment unduly harsh. I strongly suspect that most of the violation cited were fix-it tickets, meaning that there was no real punishment if the illegal modification was corrected by the vehicle owner.

As for whether or not it deterred street racing, maybe it didn't. But, then again, maybe a few more "raids" like this one will help to deter street racing. The social aspect of street racing cannot be overlooked and impacting the related social gatherings may also impact the racing itself. Like I said, a means to an end.

There's also the concept of crime displacement. It's a shitty concept that says that, if you can't stop a crime, make it so unappealing for the criminal to do it in your city that they go elsewhere. It's not an overall solution to the problem, but it's a way to move a problem away from areas where it may have a greater impact on the community.

[bing_oh]

"Not that you really care about any of that. You prefer to be close-minded and use belittling comments instead of logical debate. Quite frankly, you're the kind of person who I absolutely can't stand talking to."

Not to say it wasn't provoked, but you can't deny that sounds pretty condescending.

Actually, it sounds pretty frickin honest. He wanted to be a dick and call me names instead of arguing the topic at hand. I can't stand that crap. I deal with people who want to call me names all day at work. I don't need to hear it from anonymous people on ther internet off duty too.

[bing_oh]

Do you lump all Japanese compacts into this "plastic rice rockets" category?

Modern ones, yea, pretty much. There are a couple late 70's/early 80's ones that have a little style, but they're few and far between.

[GoCougs]

Sometimes this forum is ridiculous.

Punks got owned on a grand scale. Big deal. I've been there, as a 16 year old kid in a Camaro.

They should take thar lumps and move it along.

[Rupert]

People were not being punished on the mere assumption of greater crimes. Let's not forget that the violations were totally legitimate (if minor) in nature. We in LE work within the laws that are passed by the legislature. Sometimes, enforcement of minor laws is a means to an end in crime deterrence. Nor was the punishment unduly harsh. I strongly suspect that most of the violation cited were fix-it tickets, meaning that there was no real punishment if the illegal modification was corrected by the vehicle owner.

As for whether or not it deterred street racing, maybe it didn't. But, then again, maybe a few more "raids" like this one will help to deter street racing. The social aspect of street racing cannot be overlooked and impacting the related social gatherings may also impact the racing itself. Like I said, a means to an end.

There's also the concept of crime displacement. It's a shitty concept that says that, if you can't stop a crime, make it so unappealing for the criminal to do it in your city that they go elsewhere. It's not an overall solution to the problem, but it's a way to move a problem away from areas where it may have a greater impact on the community.

You mean from rich neighborhoods to poor neighborhoods?