E39 vs. E60: Let the Bimmer games begin

[Soup DeVille]

let me rephrase: the E60 is more of what people want in a $50k+ sedan

More of what BMW thinks the average $50K sedan buyer wants that is: not necessarily what any one individual may want.

What the average person seems to want these days usually has me scratching my head in extreme confusion.

[rohan]

You sound a bit defensive, Randy. 

Nope not ata all  just laughing at people for what they think they know about the e60.

[the Teuton]

Nope not ata all  just laughing at people for what they think they know about the e60.

I've driven about 20 of them so far, maybe more, from 528i to 550i.  For a "me" car, I'd take an E39 any day of the week.

[CALL_911]

Nope not ata all  just laughing at people for what they think they know about the e60.

To be honest, I think you're being a bit delusional about the E60. No, it is not as communicative as the E39, and I, personally think the E39 looks better. However, that is not to say that the E60 is not a terrific sports sedan, and a fantastic handler, and perhaps the best in its class. I love driving our E60 a lot. It's a wonderful car, but based on the E46 I have also driven, it would be stupid to say that BMW did not soften it.

[ChrisV]

Nope not ata all  just laughing at people for what they think they know about the e60.

And we're laughing at you for what you think you know about BMWs in general.

[rohan]

Me and apparently an automotive engineer with extensive background and education who's owned a four BMW's.    I'm guessing it's because you've owned and driven hundreds and hundreds of cars.   

[the Teuton]

No one ever said that the E60 wasn't a good car.  There'd be hundreds of automotive journalists smiting me if I did, even though I don't really think any of them have much credibility anymore.

I just think, like the E90 compared to the 3s before it, it got soft around the edges.  Except with the 5, it got really soft compared to the E39.  As a driver's car, the E60 is no longer heads and shoulders above the competition unless the competition really sucks.

[TBR]

Me and apparently an automotive engineer with extensive background and education who's owned a four BMW's.    I'm guessing it's because you've owned and driven hundreds and hundreds of cars.   

That automotive engineer made it pretty clear that the she likes the E60 more because of its interior and said that she doesn't "have much knowledge about the driving and handling."

Not a very sound basis for an argument

[CALL_911]

Me and apparently an automotive engineer with extensive background and education who's owned a four BMW's.    I'm guessing it's because you've owned and driven hundreds and hundreds of cars.   

If you're talking to ChrisV, you'd be damn right. As for me, I only have real experience with a few cars. Lucky for you, the E60 happens to be one of those cars.

And we're laughing at you for what you think you know about BMWs in general.

Definitely agreed.

[ChrisV]

Me and apparently an automotive engineer with extensive background and education who's owned a four BMW's.    I'm guessing it's because you've owned and driven hundreds and hundreds of cars.   

You already laughed at the concept of feedback, and the automotive engineer who agreed with you admitted to not knowing about handling. That pretty much negates the concept of expertise on your part, Randy. Sorry, but from the perspective of 30 years of direct automotive experience in owning and racing literally hundreds of cars, and building more cars from the ground up than both of you combined, your argument in this case is exceedingly weak.

[CALL_911]

No one ever said that the E60 wasn't a good car.  There'd be hundreds of automotive journalists smiting me if I did, even though I don't really think any of them have much credibility anymore.

I just think, like the E90 compared to the 3s before it, it got soft around the edges.  Except with the 5, it got really soft compared to the E39.  As a driver's car, the E60 is no longer heads and shoulders above the competition unless the competition really sucks.

Maybe not heads and shoulders above, but definitely above.

[the Teuton]

Maybe not heads and shoulders above, but definitely above.

I've driven an S-Type.  That's my only basis for comparison, and while the 5 was much better, I wouldn't put it at OMGWTFBBQ amazingly better.

[rohan]

You already laughed at the concept of feedback, and the automotive engineer who agreed with you admitted to not knowing about handling. That pretty much negates the concept of expertise on your part, Randy. Sorry, but from the perspective of 30 years of direct automotive experience in owning and racing literally hundreds of cars, and building more cars from the ground up than both of you combined, your argument in this case is exceedingly weak.

That's not what she said- reread it she said "I don't have much knowledge about THE driving and handling" which means she isn't familiar with THAT car.   And if you take my over 20,000 hours behind the wheel and all of that as certified pursuit driver and half of that as a certified instructor with one of the 2 most respected training grounds in the country and probably th eworld that pretty much makes my argument exceedingly strong.    Bottom line is that it's all in the eyes of the beholders- and in mine it's the better car for every reason I've mentioned here and in the previous post. 

[Soup DeVille]

Hey guys, let's not turn this into a personal pissing match about who knows what. Again.

The bottom line is that Kat said she thinks that most professional women- like herself (and can we agree that she might have more experience about what a profesional woman may want than most of the guys here?), would prefer the newer car.

I can't see how we turned that into an argument. The fact is that we all have preferences, and many of them aren't based on anything rational at all.

Myself, I'm usually drawn to cars that are simpler, and more direct. I'd take the E39, hands down, and I could give you a laundry list of reasons as to why, but add it all up and there's no quantitative reason why it makes a better car by any logical measurement.

[rohan]

Honestly I get a kick out of it all- I like to see how good people respond and sometimes it's pretty good! 

[ChrisV]

That's not what she said- reread it she said "I don't have much knowledge about THE driving and handling" which means she isn't familiar with THAT car.   And if you take my over 20,000 hours behind the wheel and all of that as certified pursuit driver and half of that as a certified instructor with one of the 2 most respected training grounds in the country and probably th eworld that pretty much makes my argument exceedingly strong.    Bottom line is that it's all in the eyes of the beholders- and in mine it's the better car for every reason I've mentioned here and in the previous post. 

Never said you didn't think your car was the better car. But BOTH of you picked it for reasons OTHER than the feedback and handling. PERIOD.

WE are saying, from the perspective of BMW building the best SPORT SEDANS and DRIVER'S sedans on the planet for decades, that they went BACKWARDS in the driving and handling department in pursuit of luxury and comfort from the E39 to the E60. YOU obviously LIKE that compromise. And Kat apparently decided to make a judgement call on this car that has nothing to do with handling as well. She would take it because it's newer. No other reason given, but a concession that she is NOT judging it on it's handling or driving. Therefore one is left to conclude that she, and the other professional women she is speaking for, do not value driving or handling as much as newness.

I did say that the E60 is still better than 90% of the cars on the market from the driver's perspective. When you start with one of the best in the world, you can go backwards a bit and still be superior to most. But the fact remains that they did soften the car up and make it less precise, and ever so much less of a driver's car in order to go after Mercedes and Lexus buyers.

Oh, and I'm sorry, but your pursuit cruisers are NOT driver's cars. They are overweight pigs that can barely get out of their own way. To give you credit, your police training allows you to usually make those cars do things they by all rights shouldn't be able to do. But in comparison to a police cruiser, even an E60 with one wheel removed is a better driver's car.

And most of your 20,000 hours behind the wheel are sitting idling waiting for a perp or driving slowly or at the speed limit waiting for something to happen. And those hours weren't done in a wide variety of cars, from Pintos to Porsches. You simply don't have the back to back comparative experience of a lot of different cars, including cars you've built yourself.

You got an exceptional deal on the E60 as a hand-me-down, and it's a great car. But you didn't do back to back comparison tests to decide on it. And what you like about it has little to do with what was laid out at the start of this thread, namely the differences in feedback, precision, handling, and driver involvement between it and its immediate predecessor. The things that BMW built its reputation on.

Again, I like the E60. But it could have been so much more than just another heavy, soft, luxury status symbol.

[CALL_911]

+10000000000000, Chris.

[LonghornTX]

I am gonna go out on a limb here, but I pretty much completely disagree with most of what people are saying here.

For one, I never found the E39 to be a particularly feedback intensive car, especially the steering on the V8 models (still recirculating ball), which, when compared with other BMWs (and I have driven just about all of them) is definitely lacking.

Apples to apples, the E60 is simply a more competant car.  It has a nicer gearbox, more controlled ride responses, and smoother engines.  You probably won't get a chance to do this Teuton, but the real difference is when you are pushing these cars to the limit...Then you start to feel the more exaggerated body motions of the E39, the now numb steering off center, and the increased nose dive under braking.  By comparison, the E60 feels like it is just hitting its stride; the car corners much flatter, the steering that everyone seems to be dissing as "too light" suddenly becomes razor sharp and very quickly you realize the generation gap between the models.

You want old-school BMW feedback in a 5 series?  Go to the E34 or E28 models, THOSE are the cars people should wax philosophically about, not the E39...

BTW Teuton, are you now a porter/lot attendant?

[rohan]

Never said you didn't think your car was the better car. But BOTH of you picked it for reasons OTHER than the feedback and handling. PERIOD.

Reread what I wrote- I said it was faster and it handled better than the previous version.  Besides feedback doesn't make a car better because most of the guys on this site and the average driver don't even know what the car's telling them.

You got an exceptional deal on the E60 as a hand-me-down, and it's a great car. But you didn't do back to back comparison tests to decide on it. And what you like about it has little to do with what was laid out at the start of this thread, namely the differences in feedback, precision, handling, and driver involvement between it and its immediate predecessor. The things that BMW built its reputation on.

We did get a great deal- and it's certified pre-owned witht he 4/50,000 full warranty they even put brand new tires on it!  Besides I've said at least once it handles better -rides better- is more powerful and gets better economy.  You assume I didnt' - where I bought the car they had an 03 with 42,000 miles that we took for 2 days with the sport package we didn't like it - it was smaller by a lot - it rode really hard and frankly I didn't think it handled any better than the one I have and they only wanted $22,000 for it.  In fact it was the same silver/grey that I ended up with.  One of the biggest killers for it was it wasn't really any bigger than the current 3 series.

Again, I like the E60. But it could have been so much more than just another heavy, soft, luxury status symbol.

The BMW manual says my car weighs 3737 and Wiki says the E39 weighs 3757- how does that make my car "just another heavy, soft, luxury status symbol."  It's got a better upgraded suspension that rides better and handles better- it's got more power and gets close or oever 30mpg on the freeway at 70mph- it's quieter.  And- it's a much stiffer car.

[rohan]

Oh, and I'm sorry, but your pursuit cruisers are NOT driver's cars. They are overweight pigs that can barely get out of their own way. To give you credit, your police training allows you to usually make those cars do things they by all rights shouldn't be able to do. But in comparison to a police cruiser, even an E60 with one wheel removed is a better driver's car.

You'll never get an argument from me about that one- but if I can make a CVPI on it's 28 year old platform perform at a high level enough to keep up with many of todays modern cars then imagine what I can do with the likes of my car.   Funny thing though the E39 and the E60 only weigh about 300 pounds more than the CVPI and Charger and only about 250 heavier than the Impala.

And most of your 20,000 hours behind the wheel are sitting idling waiting for a perp or driving slowly or at the speed limit waiting for something to happen. And those hours weren't done in a wide variety of cars, from Pintos to Porsches. You simply don't have the back to back comparative experience of a lot of different cars, including cars you've built yourself.

I would say that 1/3 of my time behind a wheel is like that- but I've been at the sheriff dept now for almost 1/2 my career and we have a much differnt driving style than at the city.  In Detroit we went from call to call to call to call all night and a lot of them were hot calls where we had to drive hard to get there- now I'm driving 70-80 to get to most calls because they could be 35 miles away.  And no I haven't used every car known to man in patrol I've driven Diplomats- Cutlass 4drs- square Impalas- square Caprices- "whale" caprices- Luminas- both recent gen Impalas- several different CVPI's including the squre ones with the 460 all as marked patrol cars and when I worked on the fugative team I drove any one of our 20 or 30 different cars but some of them were the same kind so we probably had 10 different makes and models including a ford 1ton and a Dodge 1/2 ton.   I even got to drive the 32 foot Sea Ray the drug team used!


On a different note- I didn't know that Forbes magazine did car articles but here's a link to the one they did on the 05 545i.
http://www.forbesautos.com/reviews/2005/bmw/545/testdrive.html

Here's the driving portion of that aritcle

"Driving
Before we explain what it's like to drive the new 5, we need to mention that we were only able to test the forthcoming 530i, which has the same displacement, 3.0-liter, in-line, six- cylinder engine as the outgoing 530i. Power output is also identical, with 225 hp at 4,900 rpm, and 214 foot-pounds of torque at 3,500 rpm. However, the car feels more powerful than that because 90% of peak torque is available at only 1,500 rpm, meaning that right off the line the car accelerates hard, whether you get the six-speed manual or the excellent six-speed automatic.

While the 530i becomes available in the U.S. next month, the 2.5-liter 525i and all-new V-8-powered 545i don't debut in the U.S. until September. (The 525i gets the 4.5-liter, 325-hp V-8 from the new 745i but is 600 pounds lighter, so expect it to accelerate to 60 mph in well under six seconds.)

One engine we won't get is the excellent 530 diesel. Even though this motor doesn't put out more horsepower than the 530i in-line six, it does crank out a whopping 369 foot-pounds of torque. That's way more than the 330 foot-pounds from the 4.5-liter V-8, and yet the diesel gets an astounding 40 mpg. Want one? Call your congressman. Until the U.S. legislates reformulated -- so-called "clean" -- diesel, our version of this fuel will continue to be too dirty to run these fantastic, powerful and yet efficient motors.

And the driving experience? Phenomenal. Truly, the combination of active steering, stability and traction control -- along with an extraordinary Active Roll Stabilization system (to counter the tendency of a moderately sprung car to heel over hard in aggressive turns) -- simply works magic. Drive the 530i casually, say, through traffic or on the highway, and it's a stately cruiser. Not a wallowing land yacht, of course, but an exceedingly smooth European sedan.

Throw it some tortured coastal twists, however, and the car will dance gracefully through them, handling like a machine 500 pounds lighter and 2 feet shorter. The steering helps the most here, bringing you back to center more quickly, helping you counter-steer slight skids with far less hand work -- and BMW smartly lets the tires chirp a little before traction control cuts out the fun. Turn traction control off (DTC, or Dynamic Traction Control, in BMW parlance) and you can "smear" the back tires around bends more readily, although stability control will still grab the random single brake to tighten your arc if it senses you steering wide of your next apex.

Turn off stability control as well and active steering still sharpens the wheel up nicely; just use more brake before the next bend to make sure you don't go flying off into the ether.

Which is an important point: All this electronic and mechanical trickery cannot defy physics. On one set of arcs I began by heading in purposefully faster than sanity might suggest feasible, and, sure enough, the car strode over the solid center line and I had to use steering and brakes to get the 530i righted. Our tester came with optional run-flat, 18-inch, 40-series tires, but even more rubber wouldn't hurt. You might expect that when an M-edition of this car comes out, it might get 19- or 20-inch tires -- and of course a stiffer suspension.

Also worthy of a mention is how well BMW mates its transmissions to its motors. Some carmakers seem to use the same tranny no matter the motor. But BMW truly sweats over the calibrations, especially of its automatics. In the case of the 530i six-speed auto, down- or upshifts come naturally and quickly, and a manual mode can increase their frequency. Power delivery is smooth as silk. This shouldn't overshadow the feel of the manual gearbox, of course, which we'd prefer if we had the liberty to commute on uncrowded roads.

Another option is to get BMW's Sequential Manual Gearbox (SMG), a clutchless six-speed where shifts are achieved via paddles that halo the steering wheel. It's an option on the Sport models of all three 5 series cars.

Bottom Line
Although BMW has yet to announce the pricing of the new 5s, we expect the cars to start in the high $30,000 range, with the 530i coming in at around $41,000. The pricing for such items as the Sport Package (bigger wheels and tires, SMG gearbox) hasn't been announced as of this writing, either.

But we can tell you this much: The new 5 is a driver's dream, and with the larger interior it also has become a more comfortable car for passengers. If you dislike the styling intensely, this won't matter to you. And if you want the fastest sedan for your dollar, there are now other cars that will beat the 530i. But if you want the best balance of power, handling, luxurious space and status, BMW once again has upped the ante -- you just cannot do any better."

[JYODER240]

I would bet Forbes knows as much about cars as I know about anomalous electromagnetism.

[nickdrinkwater]

I highly doubt a 3.0 litre, 6-cyl BMW 5-Series does 30 US MPG cruising at 70mph.

[JYODER240]

I highly doubt a 3.0 litre, 6-cyl BMW 5-Series does 30 US MPG cruising at 70mph.

Why? Sounds about right to me.

[ChrisV]

I highly doubt a 3.0 litre, 6-cyl BMW 5-Series does 30 US MPG cruising at 70mph.

My 4.4 liter V8 7 series does 28 mpg at 70. Gotta love that German gearing.

[nickdrinkwater]

Just seems a bit optimistic, that's all.  I guess an indicated 30mpg is possible, but trip computers are often slightly generous.

[JYODER240]

Just seems a bit optimistic, that's all.  I guess an indicated 30mpg is possible, but trip computers are often slightly generous.

Sounds perfectly normal to me. I have 3.5 V6 that isn't exactly tuned or known for gas mileage plus aggressive gearing and I get about 28.5 at 70.

[nickdrinkwater]

Sounds perfectly normal to me. I have 3.5 V6 that isn't exactly tuned or known for gas mileage plus aggressive gearing and I get about 28.5 at 70.

Fair play.  Guess the gearing in my car is just far too short 

[CALL_911]

Why? Sounds about right to me.

Yarp.

I would bet Forbes knows as much about cars as I know about anomalous electromagnetism.

Also, yarp.

[the Teuton]

I am gonna go out on a limb here, but I pretty much completely disagree with most of what people are saying here.

For one, I never found the E39 to be a particularly feedback intensive car, especially the steering on the V8 models (still recirculating ball), which, when compared with other BMWs (and I have driven just about all of them) is definitely lacking.

Apples to apples, the E60 is simply a more competant car.  It has a nicer gearbox, more controlled ride responses, and smoother engines.  You probably won't get a chance to do this Teuton, but the real difference is when you are pushing these cars to the limit...Then you start to feel the more exaggerated body motions of the E39, the now numb steering off center, and the increased nose dive under braking.  By comparison, the E60 feels like it is just hitting its stride; the car corners much flatter, the steering that everyone seems to be dissing as "too light" suddenly becomes razor sharp and very quickly you realize the generation gap between the models.

You want old-school BMW feedback in a 5 series?  Go to the E34 or E28 models, THOSE are the cars people should wax philosophically about, not the E39...

BTW Teuton, are you now a porter/lot attendant?

Indeed, I probably will never have a chance to go insane with any of the cars, and indeed, I am a lot attendant.  The way our lot is set up, though, and how we operate, I get to drive plenty.  Believe me.

[the Teuton]

I just got to drive an A6 Avant for a really short time today.  The interior is gorgeous, and I like the package better than the 5er, overall.  But, to be honest, I couldn't pick one over a 5.  The steering is too numb for a midsize car and the bright red interior lights would drive me insane.  Amazingly, after driving both the S-Type and now the A6, I would have to pick in E60 over both of them, if I had to buy one.

Edit:  Especially after driving a 550i ///M package today.  What an amazingly cool car, but not $70,000 cool, unfortunately.  Maybe $60k, though.