Anyone else really impressed with the IS-F's speed in the latest R&T?

[CALL_911]

Seriously. If history and heritage made a car exciting, then my Caddy is more exciting than a Lambo

Lambos would be nothing more than tractors.

[Vinsanity]

Lambos would be nothing more than tractors.

and my dad's Mitsubishi would be a flying war machine

[CALL_911]

and my dad's Mitsubishi would be a flying war machine

And Saabs might actually be jets.

[the Teuton]

And BMWs would be underfunded, overpriced makeshift alternatives to true German luxury cars?

Remember, BMW didn't really make it big until the late-1960s.  Before that, it was just kind of there.

[CALL_911]

And BMWs would be underfunded, overpriced makeshift alternatives to true German luxury cars?

Remember, BMW didn't really make it big until the late-1960s.  Before that, it was just kind of there.

I beg to differ. The 507? The 328 Mille Miglia? Hell, a case can even be made for the Isetta, but I won't go there.

[the Teuton]

I beg to differ. The 507? The 328 Mille Miglia? Hell, a case can even be made for the Isetta, but I won't go there.

300SL, SLR, all of the Pagoda models, Pullmans, I could go on...

You named 2.

[Cookie Monster]

300SL, SLR, all of the Pagoda models, Pullmans, I could go on...

You named 2.

He's a BMW troll, he has to defend BMW, no matter what it takes!

[the Teuton]

He's a BMW troll, he has to defend BMW, no matter what it takes!

We all troll something or another. 

Truth be told, BMW pretty much sucked before Eberhardt von Kuenheim and Bob Lutz.

[JYODER240]

Like I always say, numbers aren't everything

8 speed tranny is a pain to downshift, suspension is way too stiff and the looks are questionable, which sucks as the IS350 is a beautiful car.

It's not really a pain to downshift. I'f you put it in maunumatic mode and say you're in 8th cruising down the highway and you want to downshift for more power it will go straight to 4th. You don't have to bump down 4 times. It's very easy to use, and it's actually probably the best automatic I've ever driven. I wouldn't say the suspension is too stiff. Personally I wouldn't mind if it was a bit stiffer. The looks are questionable though.

[MidnightDave]

What really worries me is all the (forgive the grammar, I'm trying to make a point, no really), "middle aged, ill equipped to drive a car like that" types that will be driving that car!

It's like the C4 'vette when it came out. It's a magnet for the wrong element behind the wheel of that car...I should know, I run with that crowd! ;-0

[nickdrinkwater]

Lexus created this thing for the sole purpose of offering a competitor to the established German performance sedans and obtaining market share./size]

Thank you for pointing out such a disgraceful way of conducting business.  How dare they launch a rival product in a free market and have the audacity to try a sell it too?!

Sadly, other companies are also guilty of this kind of behaviour, such as Mercedes with their new X3 rivalling soft roader.

[cawimmer430]

You know, my whole point is very simple. 

The European and American luxury brands have a history and heritage which defines their brand prestige.

Lexus doesn't have this, yet so many people give them so much credit for doing "so much" in only 20 years. How can we compare the boring history of Lexus to that of the European or American luxury brands and then claim Lexus has done so much? Especially with Lexus receiving all this financial aid from Toyota. The way I see it, the European and American luxury brands go to where they are because of hard work, innovation, participation in motorsports etc. etc. etc. They EARNED their prestige. Lexus? Lexus BOUGHT their "prestige" (WHAT PRESTIGE!?  ).

And for the record, to me Lexus has less prestige than brands like Fiat, Skoda, Citroen or Renault for example.

Lexus might be the second coming of Christ in America, but overhere nobody gives a damn about a so-called "premium brand" with no heritage that doesn't offer the European consumer what he wants.

[cawimmer430]

Thank you for pointing out such a disgraceful way of conducting business.  How dare they launch a rival product in a free market and have the audacity to try a sell it too?!

Sadly, other companies are also guilty of this kind of behaviour, such as Mercedes with their new X3 rivalling soft roader.

My whole point about the M, AMG and RS argument was that these tuners started out somewhere and produced their products through RESEARCH, TECHNICAL INNOVATION and MOTORSPORT and more importantly, TRIAL AND ERROR. There is history and innovation here.

Along comes Lexus, dissects an M3 and requests Yamaha to fine-tune the engine so that they can have a car that rival the cars of the German tuners. The result is the IS-F. No history or heritage. To me this makes the car BORING because the way I see it, Lexus, in their quest for "perfection" (and money) just made this car to get a piece of the market. Now, the German brands are in here for business too, BUT, their tuner brands at least started out competing in what I would call "honorably" and not by examining the competitions products and adjusting and perfecting certain features (like Lexus did with the IS-F). I can sit down and read a book on BMW M or MB AMG and there's a high level of passion I experience and feel when reading about these tuners. I don't know about you, but reading about Lexus dissecting an M3 and other competitors and having Yamaha help them on the engine doesn't scream passion to me. Lexus has no pioneering spirit. They take, examine and build their clone. Granted, these days car companies do this, because the competition is more intense than ever before, but I hope you know what I mean.

And I never commented on the IS-F driving characteristics because I've never driven it. 


Call me a troll, I don't care, but I am a guy who thinks history and heritage are important for any luxury brand. And it pisses me off when people say Lexus has more prestige than __________ [Insert Euro/US luxury brand here] because it simply isn't true. When it comes to luxury brand prestige the Japanese marques are at the bottom, with Lexus "at least" coming before Infiniti and Acura.

[nickdrinkwater]

My whole point about the M, AMG and RS argument was that these tuners started out somewhere and produced their products through RESEARCH, TECHNICAL INNOVATION and MOTORSPORT and more importantly, TRIAL AND ERROR. There is history and innovation here.

Along comes Lexus, dissects an M3 and requests Yamaha to fine-tune the engine so that they can have a car that rival the cars of the German tuners. The result is the IS-F. No history or heritage. To me this makes the car BORING because the way I see it, Lexus, in their quest for "perfection" (and money) just made this car to get a piece of the market. Now, the German brands are in here for business too, BUT, their tuner brands at least started out competing in what I would call "honorably" and not by examining the competitions products and adjusting and perfecting certain features (like Lexus did with the IS-F). I can sit down and read a book on BMW M or MB AMG and there's a high level of passion I experience and feel when reading about these tuners. I don't know about you, but reading about Lexus dissecting an M3 and other competitors and having Yamaha help them on the engine doesn't scream passion to me. Lexus has no pioneering spirit. They take, examine and build their clone. Granted, these days car companies do this, because the competition is more intense than ever before, but I hope you know what I mean.

And I never commented on the IS-F driving characteristics because I've never driven it. 


Call me a troll, I don't care, but I am a guy who thinks history and heritage are important for any luxury brand. And it pisses me off when people say Lexus has more prestige than __________ [Insert Euro/US luxury brand here] because it simply isn't true. When it comes to luxury brand prestige the Japanese marques are at the bottom, with Lexus "at least" coming before Infiniti and Acura.

Just admit it Wimmer.  What you have is blind bias.  All manufacturers will do teardowns of competitors cars.

When Mercedes designed the C-Class, did they think, 'let's not bother looking at what our rivals our doing.  Mika Hakkinen won F1 a few years ago with a Mercedes engine, so the expertise and prestige running through our minds is more than enough to beat the 3-Series and A4'. Or did they put all the compact executive cars in their test centre and ask their engineers to strip down every last component?

Do you think the forthcoming hybrid S-Class has come about because of Mercedes' immense racing pedigree or because Lexus are selling hybrid LSs and Mercedes want a piece of the pie?

As for trial and error, what the hell are you talking about?  So it makes sense try several different solutions to a problem for the sake of it, rather than find the best solution straight away, because it proves you have more integrity?  Good job you don't run a business or work in the automotive industry.

As for all this talk about Lexus being more prestigious than ____, I don't hear anyone here saying that so I don't know why you keep saying otherwise.  I think that kinda talk is all in your head.

Some people might find the IS-F boring but surely it's not as boring as the continuous, unrelenting negative comments about Lexus that you make on this message board.

[Panama Jack]

Lexus may not make the most performance oriented cars but in the grand scheme of things it doesnt matter.
Most people do not buy cars just for performance.
For the most part their formula works and they are very succesful.

I have seen the car in person. Its ok.
Heritage? Who cares.
That will have 0 indication of how good a car is today.
So because Henry Ford built the first vehicle I should buy FORDS?
While I give him credit for that accomplishment it has nothing to do with the cars today....nothing.

[omicron]

My whole point about the M, AMG and RS argument was that these tuners started out somewhere and produced their products through RESEARCH, TECHNICAL INNOVATION and MOTORSPORT and more importantly, TRIAL AND ERROR. There is history and innovation here.

Research? The acquisition of competitors' products and detailed analysis of their components is a fundamental part of research!

Along comes Lexus, dissects an M3 and requests Yamaha to fine-tune the engine so that they can have a car that rival the cars of the German tuners. The result is the IS-F. No history or heritage. To me this makes the car BORING because the way I see it, Lexus, in their quest for "perfection" (and money) just made this car to get a piece of the market. Now, the German brands are in here for business too, BUT, their tuner brands at least started out competing in what I would call "honorably" and not by examining the competitions products and adjusting and perfecting certain features (like Lexus did with the IS-F). I can sit down and read a book on BMW M or MB AMG and there's a high level of passion I experience and feel when reading about these tuners. I don't know about you, but reading about Lexus dissecting an M3 and other competitors and having Yamaha help them on the engine doesn't scream passion to me. Lexus has no pioneering spirit. They take, examine and build their clone. Granted, these days car companies do this, because the competition is more intense than ever before, but I hope you know what I mean.

I'm astonished that you seem to be implying that Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz would not have purchased any competitors' cars for careful analysis, and that to do so means a manufacturer is simply making a passionless clone of existing models within the market. The 300SEL 6.3 would not exist were it not for the '67 Falcon GT, the '64 Pontiac GTO; the '64 Thunderbolt Fairlanes; hell, the 1957 Ramber Rebel 327. The 500E would not exist without the E34 M5 or Lotus Carlton. The Escort Cosworth, Skyline GT-R, Lancer Evolution, or Impreza WRX would not exist were it not for the Audi Quattro. Brilliant cars, all of them, and almost all owe their existence to the careful dissection of competitors' cars and analysis of the current market. 

Certainly, the 1989 LS400 is almost single-handedly responsible for the build quality and refinement of BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi in 2008; the emergence of Lexus' F brand and its realisation that driver involvement is of greater importance to a truly-good car are almost entirely the results of BMW and Mercedes-Benz's influences. You can be absolutely sure that both German makes pored over LS400s for hours and hours, examining panel gaps, paint thicknesses and overall refinement techniques.

I'm astonished that you imply that enlisting the help of an outside entity makes for a lesser car, or gives the main brand less credibility. Is Chevrolet a lesser brand for the Lotus-tuned LT5 V8? Is Pagani a lesser brand for not even bothering to make an engine of its own, and just buying an AMG V12? Is BMW a lesser brand for buying the same transmission for its 7-Series as a base Falcon? Any good business seeks help if they feel their own expertise in a certain area is not sufficient for the best outcome; surely, seeking the best outcome for one's design brief is a sure sign of passion.

And I never commented on the IS-F driving characteristics because I've never driven it. 

Call me a troll, I don't care, but I am a guy who thinks history and heritage are important for any luxury brand. And it pisses me off when people say Lexus has more prestige than __________ [Insert Euro/US luxury brand here] because it simply isn't true. When it comes to luxury brand prestige the Japanese marques are at the bottom, with Lexus "at least" coming before Infiniti and Acura.

The concept of prestige is certainly open to debate - it's a subjective term rather than a clear definition. What you see as prestigious isn't necessarily the same as what I see as prestigious; of course, I'd suspect that in many instances we'd end up with a similar list of prestigious cars/brands, but arrive at our conclusions with different criteria.

[Vinsanity]

Call me a troll, I don't care, but I am a guy who thinks history and heritage are important for any luxury brand. And it pisses me off when people say Lexus has more prestige than __________ [Insert Euro/US luxury brand here] because it simply isn't true. When it comes to luxury brand prestige the Japanese marques are at the bottom, with Lexus "at least" coming before Infiniti and Acura.

Really...who seriously buys a car based on the history/heritage of a brand over the merits of the actual car itself?

When Lexus first made it big with the original LS400, it's because they took M-B by surprise against an aging and pricey W126. If history and heritage mattered that much, then the formula wouldn't have worked.

As far as the "hierarchy" of prestige goes, do you honestly think that Lexus ranks below Lincoln? Which Lincoln model would you take over an equivalent Lexus?

[cawimmer430]

No shit the German brands do the same thing, but my point was that in the beginning when cars were a relatively new invention this wasn't so much the case. Here we had brilliant engineers working for different companies coming up with new inventions all the time and this is how the automobile progressed at first. Another of my points was that the lack of motorsport heritage at Lexus means they had to take apart an M3 etc. in order to get an idea of what to do when building the IS-F. When BMW M or AMG started out building cars, they also learned new things from participating in MOTORSPORTS. I have the articles at home to prove it. Too bad you folks don't read Kraut... 

Oh, and I've heard some people talk about how impressive Lexus's "racing heritage" is in the Rolex Series. Here's my question: WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT? 

Ring me up when Lexus actually participates in a motorsport people know and care about... 


The W108 300SEL 6.3 wasn't produced to compete with cars like the Pontiac GTO or other pure sports cars. The management simply saw a market for a fast and powerful limousine with a big engine and that's how the 300SEL 6.3 was born. And the concept of stuffing a big engine into a "smaller car" wasn't unknown at Mercedes-Benz. There had been a number of pre-war and post-war prototypes of Mercedes cars with powerful engines in small cars that never got the green light for mass production. For example, at the same time the 300SEL 6.3 was around there was a W113 Pagoda 280SL 6.3 of which one was made for research purposes and eventually used by high profile figures in the MB management as personal transport. I've got the article on these cars somewhere in my vast MB Classic magazine collection, it's in German. There was also a C123 280CE 6.3 which again didn't see production.


Let's see, as good as the LS400 was, I really don't see what made it so special. Yes, it had a quiet engine and handled well but it was also the most modern car amongst its European rivals. I mean the W126 S-Class that it competed against had its roots in 1979 (and one could even say 1972 as that's when the W116 S-Class debuted and the engineers set to work on the successor model) so no shit it would be outclassed.

When I look at the LS400 today I really don't see what's so special about that "quality interior". Sure, it holds up well but the interior is plasticky as fuck and looks pretty darn boring and uninspired for a luxury car. That's because it was actually a Toyota Celsior, in case you didn't know. Oh, and the panel gaps were huge in this thing.


I honestly don't see how prestige can be much of a subjective issue, especially when it is widely considered that history and heritage define how much prestige a brand has. To me brands like Renault, Fiat or Skoda have more prestige than Lexus based on how long they've been around and what they've accomplished and the fact that they've made desirable cars.

Some people might think Lexus is "prestigeous" because they offer you a fully equipped car for great value. To me this isn't prestige at all. This is the Lexus target market: catering to people who seek value.

And my point about prestige is that if you look at the history and existence of the European luxury brands, you can see that Lexus cannot compete here. I don't give a God damn fuck if Lexus has done so much in only 20 years - they had Toyota to back them up with money and more money and more money. Lexus used extensive marketing campaigns to create awareness and then sold their cars on a basis of "low pricing" compared to competitors. Do you know how cars were sold in the old days? How marketing was done in the old days? Through motorsports. Brands like Benz and Daimler or Alfa Romeo or whatever old school Euro brand you can think off competed in motorsports to create a name for themselves. Success in motorsports sold cars. This is a difficult means of selling yourself as it requires technical expertise and a lot of money but the rewards speak for themselves. Bottom line, the old school Euro brands created an image and brand prestige for themselves not only through technical innovation but competitive motorsport participation.

Lexus doesn't have this and this lacking of a key factor (and others) makes them nothing special to me when it comes to brand prestige. To me they're always going to be a Toyota in a drag. 



If I sound arrogant here, I am not trying to be. I simply see things differently. Lexus is a good brand but when it comes to prestige, give me a fucking break. 

[JYODER240]

All I know is I'm buying a Focus. Those must be crazy prestigous with all that history and racing experice Ford has.

[cawimmer430]

All I know is I'm buying a Focus. Those must be crazy prestigous with all that history and racing experice Ford has.

Ford does have more prestige than Lexus.

IMO.

[Panama Jack]

Ford does have more prestige than Lexus.

IMO.

In germany maybe......

Toyota has more prestige than ford here in the US.

[Cookie Monster]

No shit the German brands do the same thing, but my point was that in the beginning when cars were a relatively new invention this wasn't so much the case. Here we had brilliant engineers working for different companies coming up with new inventions all the time and this is how the automobile progressed at first. Another of my points was that the lack of motorsport heritage at Lexus means they had to take apart an M3 etc. in order to get an idea of what to do when building the IS-F. When BMW M or AMG started out building cars, they also learned new things from participating in MOTORSPORTS. I have the articles at home to prove it. Too bad you folks don't read Kraut... 

Oh, and I've heard some people talk about how impressive Lexus's "racing heritage" is in the Rolex Series. Here's my question: WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT? 

Ring me up when Lexus actually participates in a motorsport people know and care about... 


The W108 300SEL 6.3 wasn't produced to compete with cars like the Pontiac GTO or other pure sports cars. The management simply saw a market for a fast and powerful limousine with a big engine and that's how the 300SEL 6.3 was born. And the concept of stuffing a big engine into a "smaller car" wasn't unknown at Mercedes-Benz. There had been a number of pre-war and post-war prototypes of Mercedes cars with powerful engines in small cars that never got the green light for mass production. For example, at the same time the 300SEL 6.3 was around there was a W113 Pagoda 280SL 6.3 of which one was made for research purposes and eventually used by high profile figures in the MB management as personal transport. I've got the article on these cars somewhere in my vast MB Classic magazine collection, it's in German. There was also a C123 280CE 6.3 which again didn't see production.


Let's see, as good as the LS400 was, I really don't see what made it so special. Yes, it had a quiet engine and handled well but it was also the most modern car amongst its European rivals. I mean the W126 S-Class that it competed against had its roots in 1979 (and one could even say 1972 as that's when the W116 S-Class debuted and the engineers set to work on the successor model) so no shit it would be outclassed.

When I look at the LS400 today I really don't see what's so special about that "quality interior". Sure, it holds up well but the interior is plasticky as fuck and looks pretty darn boring and uninspired for a luxury car. That's because it was actually a Toyota Celsior, in case you didn't know. Oh, and the panel gaps were huge in this thing.


I honestly don't see how prestige can be much of a subjective issue, especially when it is widely considered that history and heritage define how much prestige a brand has. To me brands like Renault, Fiat or Skoda have more prestige than Lexus based on how long they've been around and what they've accomplished and the fact that they've made desirable cars.

Some people might think Lexus is "prestigeous" because they offer you a fully equipped car for great value. To me this isn't prestige at all. This is the Lexus target market: catering to people who seek value.

And my point about prestige is that if you look at the history and existence of the European luxury brands, you can see that Lexus cannot compete here. I don't give a God damn fuck if Lexus has done so much in only 20 years - they had Toyota to back them up with money and more money and more money. Lexus used extensive marketing campaigns to create awareness and then sold their cars on a basis of "low pricing" compared to competitors. Do you know how cars were sold in the old days? How marketing was done in the old days? Through motorsports. Brands like Benz and Daimler or Alfa Romeo or whatever old school Euro brand you can think off competed in motorsports to create a name for themselves. Success in motorsports sold cars. This is a difficult means of selling yourself as it requires technical expertise and a lot of money but the rewards speak for themselves. Bottom line, the old school Euro brands created an image and brand prestige for themselves not only through technical innovation but competitive motorsport participation.

Lexus doesn't have this and this lacking of a key factor (and others) makes them nothing special to me when it comes to brand prestige. To me they're always going to be a Toyota in a drag. 



If I sound arrogant here, I am not trying to be. I simply see things differently. Lexus is a good brand but when it comes to prestige, give me a fucking break. 

So Lexus doesn't get credit that they've built a good car because they don't have any motorsport heritage?!

Please go masturbate of your beloved German cars. Don't give any credit to the newcomers who have consistently had better quality rankings than Mercedes Benz. Yes, a falling apart, overpriced piece of shit with some useless history behind it is so much better than a quality product that isn't an electrical nightmare in 100,000 miles because it came out first, and has heritage.

Give me a fucking break.

[cawimmer430]

In germany maybe......

Toyota has more prestige than ford here in the US.

Tell me what's so great about Lexus? I'd like to hear it. Building reliable cars that are fully equipped doesn't give you the same prestige as a brand that's been around for literally a century and within that century having created and achieved so much. Lexus really hasn't done shit without taking risks. Toyota has generally always played it safe sitting back, letting their rivals make the move and then making their move after examining the competitors products and modifying their products to counter it etc.

So how has Ford more prestige than Lexus?

We can start with Ford becoming the first car manufacturer to introduce the mass-production method in this industry - and this was after Henry Ford visited a meat factory where he saw this system's efficiency in action. This was a major breakthrough for this industry and was soon copied by other car manufacturers worldwide. Lexus hasn't introduced shit. Toyota revolutionized the JIT production method where you keep your inventory low and save on costs. But this falls under the name of the Toyota brand and not Lexus since Toyota perfected it.

How about cars that create lusting for example? Ford has the Mustang in the US and the Capri in Europe. Two cars on two different continents that people desired to own. Two cars which have global appeal, especially the Mustang. Two cars with massive fan clubs, countless appearances in American / European films etc. Lexus hasn't created a single car that matches these two in those criteria. Those are just two cars from Ford I mentioned. Want more? What about the Taunus or Granada models? These were hits in Europe given their availability in different body styles and with a design that stood out during their era. I don't know too much about American Ford models, but aside from the Mustang there are definitely going to be a few more cars that were interesting and made history. And before you mention the Pinto, shit happens. Heck, Lexus is fucking the public right now with their overrated pieces of junk called hybrids such as the "ultra fuel efficient" LS600h (what a joke).

Let's not forget that Ford has a successful racing heritage, also in Europe where they performed well at Le Mans even beating out Ferrari a couple of times if I remember correctly. Lexus lacks this. I've said it before, but motorsport is considered a very important aspect in defining brand prestige, especially from a European viewpoint. Virtually all European premium brands have this feature. Cadillac and Lincoln made a name for themselves building top luxury cars and contributing useful innovations to the business.

Lexus made a name for itself doing what? Reliable and well equipped cars? That's good for them but these two features certainly do not give them the same kind of prestige as the European / American premium brands.


Ford > Lexus in prestige. Fact.

[cawimmer430]

So Lexus doesn't get credit that they've built a good car because they don't have any motorsport heritage?!

I said Lexus doesn't have the same kind of prestige as the European and American premium brands. Building reliable cars that come well equipped doesn't give you the same prestige as a competitor that's been around longer, has been more involved and has a higher global standing and desirability than Lexus.

What happens if the Japanese/Germans/Russians/Sri Lankans were to suddenly introduce a champagne that was aimed at rivaling Dom Perignon. Let's say their champagne tastes the same, comes in a nice bottle with a nice pleasing and old wine farmer European logo and more importantly is much cheaper to purchase while still being of an expensive fiscal nature. Let's say that this champagne is sold in America alongside Dom Perignon and within a few years it is the best selling high end champagne in the US. Are people suddenly going to say that:

"________ champage has more prestige because it offers me the same taste while being less expensive."

Hell no. Dom Perignon is the pinnacle of champagne probably closely followd by Taittinger because of their long history and heritage which edges them over this imitation champagne. A rival champagne that was created recently might be able to match it for taste and give some people the same drinking experience, but there's no fucking away this cheap ass imitation will have more brand prestige than Dom Perignon. 

Same God damn fucking thing with Lexus. 

In the case of Lexus brand prestige, go visit the BMW Museum in Munich or the Mercedes Museum in Stuttgart. These two museums only show a small part of the achievements and products of these two companies, but it's enough to show anyone who appreciates history that there is no way some gussied up Toyota is going to be more prestigeous than a BMW or Mercedes. Period. 

Please go masturbate of your beloved German cars.

SCREW YOU...

Don't give any credit to the newcomers who have consistently had better quality rankings than Mercedes Benz. Yes, a falling apart, overpriced piece of shit with some useless history behind it is so much better than a quality product that isn't an electrical nightmare in 100,000 miles because it came out first, and has heritage.

This is my fucking point. Doing nothing but building boring reliable cars for 20 years isn't going to give you the same brand prestige as a brand like MB. MB has been building reliable cars since the 1920s all the way until the early 1990s and they're making a strong comeback now. Furthermore during that same time period Mercedes was involved in massive research programs with the intention of bettering safety and fuel economy. They were involved in MOTORSPORT and won some of the world's most difficult races (which in turn built up prestige). They also brought out many useful innovations, in some cases very simple ones like ribbed rear lights / blinkers which stay cleaner longer than flat versions.

Want more? Mercedes factories in Brazil, South Africa and in South East Asia have an in-built water treatment plant that cleanses water used in the production process and then is pumped to local farm communities to aid them in farming. Mercedes was the first luxury manufacturer to admit to using recycled materials in its luxury cars like the carpets in the S-Class for example. On average, a Mercedes car is up to 70% recyclable as it uses many "natural materials" onboard such as woven coconut fibers that act as sound isolation material between the engine and cabin etc. Come to think of it Mercedes has done more for environmental protection than that lying marketing company called Lexus.

Want to know why Mercedes' is so respected globally? Because they give consumers also what they want. Not only did they build luxury cars but they also built cars for the common man and business owner under the same name. A bus driver in Buenos Aires loves his Mercedes 1513 while in next door Brazil some land developer puts his faith into the latest generation of Actros trucks. Mercedes' taxis bring people about in comfort and safety (and the taxi business is great advertising for a car company believe it or not) all over the globe, be it some 190 Fintail in Egypt or a doorless 230E somewhere in North Africa.

Clearly there are achievements and there is history here. Something Lexus doesn't have. Do you get my fucking point? Lexus might have built reliable cars for 20 years but that's it. They've done nothing else that would elevate their brand prestige to MB levels or even Fiat levels for that matter. Lexus hasn't done jack shit when it comes to safety or innovation research. And when they do, it's a rip off of an existing system like MB's PRE- and PRO-SAFE safety features for example. Lexus is more of a marketing company than a car company and people like you apparently fall for their bullshit.

In the case of MB, are we going to ignore their contributions and achievements from 1886 until now? Because that is what you Lexus freaks are doing. You're saying Lexus is on the same prestige level as MB just because MB had a poor showing in the mid 1990s until the early 2000s. Um, it doesn't work that way when it comes to brand prestige. Mercedes has been around for 100 years and they've been very active, successful and they were considered the makers of the best cars in the world longer than Lexus has been.


Brand prestige has to be earned, not bought. Mercedes, BMW, Fiat, Skoda, Renault, Citroen and yes, even Toyota earned their brand prestige. Lexus bought theirs.

Give me a fucking break.

I'll give you a break. Maybe you can use that time to read a history book on cars and see for yourself how Lexus has no God damn prestige compared to the European / American premium brands. Fucking hell, even Fiat has more heritage and brand prestige than Lexus could ever dream about. 

[Submariner]

While prestiege shouldn't really count, to be saying it doesn't is very foolish.  Much of a luxury brands price can be generated from prestiege, and it's often what directs customers to buy car X over car Y.  Do you think a man looking to drop $140,000 on an S600 would buy Hyundai Azera for $26,000...even if the Hyundai met the standards of the S600?  I don't think so.  Wimmer does bring up a good point there.  It doesn't mean though that the Lexus is a bad car.  Imangin e if we compaired cars like the 430 to the Ariel Atom.  We would be calling the brand with no pedigree a piece of rubbish!

Between the BMW, Lexus, and Merc, I too would take the Lexus last.  The IS reminds me in some ways of a cramped, less comfortable, stupid fast first generation E-55.  I will be the first to admit I have never driven the AMG or F versions of each class, but Iave driven the C-350 and IS 350.  Given how those are and what I have read, the lexus simply aims to be fast and stand out.  Perfectly fine for those who are looking for that. 

We all know what Mercedes has done for the automotive world.  The advancements and contributions they have made in my opinionfar surpass those of any other auto maker.  Im sure many people see this as a plus when buying a car.  However, people should also realize that if they are building an inferior product, all the prestiege in the world should mean nothing.  Granted, Mercedes has come a long way from the nightmare days of the first generation ML.  The S, CL, GL, SL, etc are all at the tops of their game.  Mercedes needs to still work on proving themselves though.  A lot of people got burned, and when you're dishing out $80,000 on a car, you should be getting the best possible. 

[cawimmer430]

Again, don't get me wrong. I value Lexus as a competitor because this means the other brands will step up the game. So in a way it is good that Lexus came by.

But in terms of brand prestige, Lexus isn't in even on the list. I've said it before, brands like Citroen or Renault or Fiat have more brand prestige than Lexus, despite not always having built the best quality cars. Why? Innovation, heritage, motorsports and global appeal.

[Raza]

So because Henry Ford built the first vehicle I should buy FORDS?
While I give him credit for that accomplishment it has nothing to do with the cars today....nothing.

Common misconception.  Ford simply created the first cheap, mass produced automobile.  I believe the Benz Patent Wagon is credited as the first automobile.  Cadillac was the first company to make a modern automobile (that is, oriented like a car is today), I believe.

[GoCougs]

Don't know about the rest of the world, but at least in America, the prestige of the Lexus brand easily has parity with Audi, BMW and Mercedes.

[the Teuton]

Whenever I drive a BMW, I think about the sheer amount of heritage in every one of them.  iDrive tells me so. I think about how much heritage each BMW has, from pre-WWII boutique cars to a financially bankrupt nothing all the way up to what it is today:  the Abercrombie and Fitch of cars, aka overpriced imagewear.

As Mr. Ford said, "History is bunk.  The only history worth a tinker's damn is the history we make today."  He was right.

Lexus raised the bar.  It made sure that Mercedes-Benzes were no longer stuffy, old land yachts.  It made sure that a 3er could no longer be competitive without offering an interior up to par.  Without Lexus, there would be no luxury soft-road market.  They may not have the racing heritage or have been Hitler's ride of choice when we wasn't trying to sell people Beetles, but they have been every bit as innovative as the establishment.

Wimmer, don't hate the playa, hate the game.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Whenever I drive a BMW, I think about the sheer amount of heritage in every one of them.  iDrive tells me so. I think about how much heritage each BMW has, from pre-WWII boutique cars to a financially bankrupt nothing all the way up to what it is today:  the Abercrombie and Fitch of cars, aka overpriced imagewear.

As Mr. Ford said, "History is bunk.  The only history worth a tinker's damn is the history we make today."  He was right.

Lexus raised the bar.  It made sure that Mercedes-Benzes were no longer stuffy, old land yachts.  It made sure that a 3er could no longer be competitive without offering an interior up to par.  Without Lexus, there would be no luxury soft-road market.  They may not have the racing heritage or have been Hitler's ride of choice when we wasn't trying to sell people Beetles, but they have been every bit as innovative as the establishment.

Wimmer, don't hate the playa, hate the game.

You shall never again compare BMW to Abercrummy and Bitch. I would rather suck on the tailpipe of any BMW than be anywhere near one of those stores - the fumes could not possibly anymore toxic.