Could this be the new G?

[BMWDave]

If I am looking at a tough offroader that can still carry the family I have 3 options:
Hummer
Glendewagon
Defender

The Hummer is too big, while the Defender and Glendewagen are just the right size, why wouldn't I compare the two? And, this is a imported Glendewagen that looks like it will go for under $45000: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/5-8-Brabus-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Let me break this down:

No one, or an extremely select group of people, (nowadays in the US) buys a 80K G Wagon to off road in.  

The people who buy H2s are composed of a few off roaders, and a lot of people who put 22 in dubs on them.

I would say the Defender is almost in a class of its own, and it competes with the H1, which is actually used for off roading.  No one buys a Defender for on road travel...they are hardcore off road vehicles, and thats what theyre for.  

[TBR]

So then I can't compare them because of your stereotypes? I am sure that there are not only people that offroad with their G-wagons but there are likely also people who use Defenders as daily drivers.  

[BMWDave]

I think both if and I understand that this isn't a level playing field, but why would it matter to the consumer?

First of all, a consumer buying a G Wagon in the US is almost never going to even look at a Defender in the guise of buying one.  

I just stated why it would be silly to compare the two vehicles...and you and If understand that.  But consumers will ultimately do what they want.

[TBR]

How do you know that Defender buyers won't cross shop the G-class and vice versa? Do you even know a Defender owner? Or, for that matter, a G-class owner? (I don't, just curious to see what your assumptions are based on)

[BMWDave]

So then I can't compare them because of your stereotypes? I am sure that there are not only people that offroad with their G-wagons but there are likely also people who use Defenders as daily drivers.

Maybe they old G wagons, but almost no one (in the US) uses their brand new G Class for off roading.  Lets be reasonable here.

On the other hand, a Defender is used for off roading.  But you wont see G Wagons where defender are.

G Wagon customers want prestige and comfort...Defender customers could care for neither.  

[BMWDave]

How do you know that Defender buyers won't cross shop the G-class and vice versa? Do you even know a Defender owner? Or, for that matter, a G-class owner? (I don't, just curious to see what your assumptions are based on)

People at the LR dealership I go to own Defenders...and many times I see them come in caked with mud.  I know they take them off road.

My friend in my class's dad wants to buy a G Wagon, but for the sole purpose "because its a nice ride."  No mention at all of taking it off road.  You have to be silly to delude yourself into thinking that a 80K G Wagon sold in the US will be used for off roading.  

[R33 GT-R]

I have to admit, if I was shopping for luxury and offroadability there's only one, the G wagon.  If I wanted a tough brute offroad not worrying about road manners or luxury, I look at the Defender and the Hummer 1.  The width and engine of the H1 would turn me off and the Defender would be my choice.  

[TBR]

Once again, do you even know a G-class wagon owner or Defender owner? Just because the G-class wagon has a few luxury features doesn't mean people don't offroad with it, the Range Rover is more luxurious yet you claim that many owners take them offroad.

Edit- guessed I missed your post or something, but one potential owner shouldn't be a basis for an assumption. I see no reason why a G500 owner wouldn't be just as likely to take their vehicle offroad as a Range Rover owner.  

[BMWDave]

Once again, do you even know a G-class wagon owner or Defender owner? Just because the G-class wagon has a few luxury features doesn't mean people don't offroad with it, the Range Rover is more luxurious yet you claim that many owners take them offroad.

Read my previous post...I addressed your "knowing any owners' question.

And Land Rover has a whole different reputation...there are Land Rover driving schools which provide RRs for off road use...dealers are always offering vacations where you get to off road in your new car.  

G Wagons in the US simply do not go off road...when was the last time you saw a MB off road event?

[TBR]

Just because there aren't MB sponsored events doesn't mean that owners don't take them offroad, and I saw your other post and edited accordingly.

[BMWDave]

Once again, do you even know a G-class wagon owner or Defender owner? Just because the G-class wagon has a few luxury features doesn't mean people don't offroad with it, the Range Rover is more luxurious yet you claim that many owners take them offroad.

Edit- guessed I missed your post or something, but one potential owner shouldn't be a basis for an assumption. I see no reason why a G500 owner wouldn't be just as likely to take their vehicle offroad as a Range Rover owner.

Because Land Rover has a whole different image...they promote the extreme use of their vehicles, and many people take their Range Rovers off road...I've witnessed it.

G Wagons are more of a uber SUV...very luxurious and prestigious.  They cater to a whole different clientale than a Defender.  

[BMWDave]

Just because there aren't MB sponsored events doesn't mean that owners don't take them offroad, and I saw your other post and edited accordingly.

All right, find me evidence that G Wagon customers take their cars off road...I can provide you with lots of evidence that RR's do in fact go off road.

[ifcar]

Of course you can. You compare the prices that you would be paying, and see which one is more.

Of course "you" can, thats your very own perogative, but it is silly to fault a vehicle for its price relative to another imported vehicle when it isnt even imported to the country.

It's not a question of being fair to the vehicle, it's a question of choosing what's best for you. You wouldn't pay extra for an American-built car over a Mexican-built one because you feel sorry for its manufacturer's decision to pay its workers more. You pay what you pay, and that's what you look at.

[TBR]

The image of a brand doesn't determine whether or not people take their vehicles offroad, just because MB doesn't promote offroad use of the G-class doesn't mean people don't use them offroad.  

[BMWDave]

Of course you can. You compare the prices that you would be paying, and see which one is more.

Of course "you" can, thats your very own perogative, but it is silly to fault a vehicle for its price relative to another imported vehicle when it isnt even imported to the country.

It's not a question of being fair to the vehicle, it's a question of choosing what's best for you. You wouldn't pay extra for an American-built car over a Mexican-built one because you feel sorry for its manufacturer's decision to pay its workers more. You pay what you pay, and that's what you look at.

Thats a completely different situation.  

[BMWDave]

The image of a brand doesn't determine whether or not people take their vehicles offroad, just because MB doesn't promote offroad use of the G-class doesn't mean people don't use them offroad.

So prove to me that G Wagon owners do in fact take their cars off road...instead of just making that statement.

[ifcar]

Of course you can. You compare the prices that you would be paying, and see which one is more.

Of course "you" can, thats your very own perogative, but it is silly to fault a vehicle for its price relative to another imported vehicle when it isnt even imported to the country.

It's not a question of being fair to the vehicle, it's a question of choosing what's best for you. You wouldn't pay extra for an American-built car over a Mexican-built one because you feel sorry for its manufacturer's decision to pay its workers more. You pay what you pay, and that's what you look at.

Thats a completely different situation.

No, it's not. It's a situation in which the product costs more because of a decision by the manufacturer. In this case, it was the decision not to officially import the vehicle, and in my example, it was the decision to pay higher wages and health benefits. Both of which change the price you pay, and that's the only price that matters.

[TBR]

Just because there aren't MB sponsored events doesn't mean that owners don't take them offroad, and I saw your other post and edited accordingly.

All right, find me evidence that G Wagon customers take their cars off road...I can provide you with lots of evidence that RR's do in fact go off road.

I am not finding anything, the G-class doesn't have clubs or anything like LR and the RR does. But, that isn't proof that people don't use them, in most cases G500 owners probably offroad with other clubs, likely Land Rover clubs and Hummer clubs much of the time.  

[R33 GT-R]

Once again, do you even know a G-class wagon owner or Defender owner? Just because the G-class wagon has a few luxury features doesn't mean people don't offroad with it, the Range Rover is more luxurious yet you claim that many owners take them offroad.

Edit- guessed I missed your post or something, but one potential owner shouldn't be a basis for an assumption. I see no reason why a G500 owner wouldn't be just as likely to take their vehicle offroad as a Range Rover owner.

Before we moved my next door neighbor had a G500 then traded it in for a G55 AMG.  I asked him if he ever went offroad in it and his reply was "ARE YOU CRAZY"

I have 3 insureds with G500s currently and I know for sure 2 of them have never been offroad and I'll see the 3rd owner next week to ask him.  I would be probably 100% correct in saying his answer will be no.  It's not that hard to believe, how many people have trucks but never go offroad or haul anything.  The G exudes an image of look at me, I'm bold, I'm loaded and I like to get head from supermodels.

[Submariner]

Really? The Durango was $27,000, surely a new one didn't cost over 100k.

You'd be suprised.   When I was checking back in 2000, a relatively new 110 was up at 93K.  They cost a lot less in Britain, starting at about 17K pounds.  I dont know why they are so much in the US.

Import costs.  Before the G-class was imported by Mercedes, they would regulary go for 130,000.

[TBR]

Once again, do you even know a G-class wagon owner or Defender owner? Just because the G-class wagon has a few luxury features doesn't mean people don't offroad with it, the Range Rover is more luxurious yet you claim that many owners take them offroad.

Edit- guessed I missed your post or something, but one potential owner shouldn't be a basis for an assumption. I see no reason why a G500 owner wouldn't be just as likely to take their vehicle offroad as a Range Rover owner.

Before we moved my next door neighbor had a G500 then traded it in for a G55 AMG.  I asked him if he ever went offroad in it and his reply was "ARE YOU CRAZY"

I have 3 insureds with G500s currently and I know for sure 2 of them have never been offroad and I'll see the 3rd owner next week to ask him.  I would be probably 100% correct in saying his answer will be no.  It's not that hard to believe, how many people have trucks but never go offroad or haul anything.  The G exudes an image of look at me, I'm bold, I'm loaded and I like to get head from supermodels.

And the Defender didn't do the same thing back in the '90s? Yes, most owners probably don't offroad their vehicles, but that doesn't mean that none of them do, nor does that mean that I can't compare the prices between the two as their capablities are similar.  

[R33 GT-R]

Once again, do you even know a G-class wagon owner or Defender owner? Just because the G-class wagon has a few luxury features doesn't mean people don't offroad with it, the Range Rover is more luxurious yet you claim that many owners take them offroad.

Edit- guessed I missed your post or something, but one potential owner shouldn't be a basis for an assumption. I see no reason why a G500 owner wouldn't be just as likely to take their vehicle offroad as a Range Rover owner.

Before we moved my next door neighbor had a G500 then traded it in for a G55 AMG.  I asked him if he ever went offroad in it and his reply was "ARE YOU CRAZY"

I have 3 insureds with G500s currently and I know for sure 2 of them have never been offroad and I'll see the 3rd owner next week to ask him.  I would be probably 100% correct in saying his answer will be no.  It's not that hard to believe, how many people have trucks but never go offroad or haul anything.  The G exudes an image of look at me, I'm bold, I'm loaded and I like to get head from supermodels.

And the Defender didn't do the same thing back in the '90s? Yes, most owners probably don't offroad their vehicles, but that doesn't mean that none of them do, nor does that mean that I can't compare the prices between the two as their capablities are similar.

The Defender is much more capable offroad vs the G.  I would be willing to say 2 or more times capable.  

[TBR]

2 times as capable? That is a real scientific number . I am sure the 90 is more capable just because of its reduced size, but I doubt that is the case with the 110.

[BMWDave]

Of course you can. You compare the prices that you would be paying, and see which one is more.

Of course "you" can, thats your very own perogative, but it is silly to fault a vehicle for its price relative to another imported vehicle when it isnt even imported to the country.

It's not a question of being fair to the vehicle, it's a question of choosing what's best for you. You wouldn't pay extra for an American-built car over a Mexican-built one because you feel sorry for its manufacturer's decision to pay its workers more. You pay what you pay, and that's what you look at.

Thats a completely different situation.

No, it's not. It's a situation in which the product costs more because of a decision by the manufacturer. In this case, it was the decision not to officially import the vehicle, and in my example, it was the decision to pay higher wages and health benefits. Both of which change the price you pay, and that's the only price that matters.

Its not a conscious decision by the manufacturer....they want to produce cars by paying their worker more, that is fine.  The sticker price will reflect that.  

Not importing a vehicle is completely different.  Its not the manufacturers conscious decision that they should be penalized for it.  Youre example of the better conditioned factory is completely different.  If Ford wants to pay its workers more, and then sell those cars in a competitive market, then they can be faulted.  But Land Rover isnt even selling those cars in America, and costs taken to pass emissons cannot be used against it.

Why dont you compare a G Wagon in Britain and a Defender in Britain?  In terms of price, the Defender easily has it beat.  Pick a market where both are imported, and then compare them.

[R33 GT-R]

2 times as capable? That is a real scientific number . I am sure the 90 is more capable just because of its reduced size, but I doubt that is the case with the 110.

Just as scientific as people who buy the G class take it offroad.

[BMWDave]

2 times as capable? That is a real scientific number . I am sure the 90 is more capable just because of its reduced size, but I doubt that is the case with the 110.

It has much higher ground clearance...which equals more fording depth, higher approach and departure angles, etc.

[TBR]

Why does it matter to me, as a consumer, that the Defender was imported through a 3rd party and the G500 wasn't?  

[TBR]

2 times as capable? That is a real scientific number . I am sure the 90 is more capable just because of its reduced size, but I doubt that is the case with the 110.

It has much higher ground clearance...which equals more fording depth, higher approach and departure angles, etc.

Links please.  

[BMWDave]

2 times as capable? That is a real scientific number . I am sure the 90 is more capable just because of its reduced size, but I doubt that is the case with the 110.

It has much higher ground clearance...which equals more fording depth, higher approach and departure angles, etc.

Links please.

I'll find that for you tonight...I have to go to a job now :)

[R33 GT-R]

2 times as capable? That is a real scientific number . I am sure the 90 is more capable just because of its reduced size, but I doubt that is the case with the 110.

It has much higher ground clearance...which equals more fording depth, higher approach and departure angles, etc.

Links please.

The Defender 90 has the best approach, breakover and departure angle of any production vehicle made.

Link with angles.