Should speed limits be abolished on highways?

[ChrisV]

Once concern I have about eliminating rural interstate speed limits is that the only thing holding back some fools from driving way faster than conditions warrant and way beyond their skills is the threat of a speeding tickets and the resulting loss of license and increased insurance costs (provided they bother to get insurance).

I'd peg that number at a mere fraction of a percent of people who drive fast. I'd be willing to bet that considering the avereage speeds on many interstates, that speeding tickets aren't threatening anyone.

An example is I90 in washington state. State patrol is estimating that the average speeds on I90 out there are approching triple digits, and recent snesor data shows over 90% of drivers speed on that highway. Speed limits are 75 mph, I do believe, so the threat of tickets is not stopping anyone, and it is obvious that there is a disconnect between what seems to be comfortable and safe (judging by accident rates out there) and what the posted limit is. Again, I'd be willing to bet that if the speed limits were dropped out there, than the roads woudl not run red with blood, and most people would not change their actual speeds from the elevated position they are now.

Maybe, instead of unlimited speeds, we shoudl go back to the old engineering adage of the 85th percentile speed.

[TBR]

How did they manage to pull it off in Montana? Maybe we could modify the Montana program with definitions, like speed differentials, and the like. How do you determine now that a lane change is normal and one that is reckless? Is there a real metric for that that says, "this is agressive and reckless, and this on here is merely passing normally?" You deal with subjective, trained, decisions on a daily basis.

They didn't pull it off...someone appealed his speeding ticket all the way to the supreme court and got the law declared unconstitutional.

[Cookie Monster]

Does anyone even drive 10 2 anymore? I only keep 1 hand on the wheel on the highway anyways. Only when the road gets very twisty I put both my hands on the wheel.

[Raza]

I thought current thinking was that 9 and 3 was better?      

When I'm really going at it, I go 9 and 3, and "tuck my thumbs", as I like to say. 

Generally, I drive with my left hand on 11 or so.  On the highway, I go 9 or 7 when cruising. 

[TBR]

When I'm really going at it, I go 9 and 3, and "tuck my thumbs", as I like to say. 

Generally, I drive with my left hand on 11 or so.  On the highway, I go 9 or 7 when cruising. 

Same, I rarely have two hands on the wheel when I am on anything straight (unless traffic is heavy, there is a lot of construction, or it is raining or foggy).

[sportyaccordy]

I drive 10 and 2 when my mom is in the car, she won't let me do anything else

[Soup DeVille]

They didn't pull it off...someone appealed his speeding ticket all the way to the supreme court and got the law declared unconstitutional.

The Montana Supreme Court that is.

And, that wasn't a breakdown of traffic safey or the highway system, that was a legal breakdown. There was no huge rise in fatalities, no public outcry, not even any real backlash from law enforcement.

In short, the system did work on a practical level.

[giant_mtb]

Only through years of transition could such a thing happen.  I could see it happening in small increments as drivers' training gets better and the condition of the roads is improved, but all at once, it could never happen.  It would take years.  ...and a shitload of money.

I voted no.  It's not worth it.  You don't need to drive 100+ MPH to get to work.  There'd still be gridlock anyways during rush hours.  I can see a reason behind such speeds if you were traversing the country, but if you're in that much of a hurry and do not wish to see the sites along the way...fuckin' fly.  Don't put the rest of the families out there in danger.

[dazzleman]

I still drive at 10 and 2 most of the time.  It's 30 years ago this month that I got my license.

[sparkplug]

I still drive at 10 and 2 most of the time.  It's 30 years ago this month that I got my license.

Is that am or pm?

[bing_oh]

ChrisV, I think you're overestimating people's willingness to keep current with any kind of advanced driver's training. First, people (especially experienced drivers) will resent being forced into some kind of advanced driver's training. Most people out there will tell you with a straight face that they're very good, safe drivers. Those people will go through your proposed training half-asleep, absorb enough to pass whatever state-mandated test you can come up with, and then drive out of the parking lot driving with their knee because they're talking on their cell phones while reading the newspaper and munching on a burger. Unless you can convince people that they want this advanced training, the vast majority of them will walk away with almost nothing but alot of resentment for the state because they had to waste their valuable time and money on a class they never wanted in the first place.

People who want to learn (like your autocross drivers) can gain, retain, and even improve on those taught skills. Once again, you have to remember that this will have to at least apply to the median population (if not the lowest common denominator of drivers).

How did they manage to pull it off in Montana? Maybe we could modify the Montana program with definitions, like speed differentials, and the like. How do you determine now that a lane change is normal and one that is reckless? Is there a real metric for that that says, "this is agressive and reckless, and this on here is merely passing normally?" You deal with subjective, trained, decisions on a daily basis.

I have no idea how they worded the law in Montana. I don't live or work there, so I can't give you an answer. I can tell you that Ohio law also has "reasonable and prudent" wording in its speed limit laws (right before the per se speed limits for various road types), and I can even tell you how its applied...after somebody crashes. Until someone runs into...or nearly runs into...another object on the roadway, it would be nearly impossible for me to prove the "reasonable and prudent" part of the law. That's probably why the per se speed limits were added to it.

[Rupert]

I'd peg that number at a mere fraction of a percent of people who drive fast. I'd be willing to bet that considering the avereage speeds on many interstates, that speeding tickets aren't threatening anyone.

An example is I90 in washington state. State patrol is estimating that the average speeds on I90 out there are approching triple digits, and recent snesor data shows over 90% of drivers speed on that highway. Speed limits are 75 mph, I do believe, so the threat of tickets is not stopping anyone, and it is obvious that there is a disconnect between what seems to be comfortable and safe (judging by accident rates out there) and what the posted limit is. Again, I'd be willing to bet that if the speed limits were dropped out there, than the roads woudl not run red with blood, and most people would not change their actual speeds from the elevated position they are now.

Maybe, instead of unlimited speeds, we shoudl go back to the old engineering adage of the 85th percentile speed.

Average on I-90 in the 90-100 mph range? I don't think so. I've driven I-90 all the way through Washington, and the average might be about 80 mph. The limit is currently 70 mph. The same applies for I-82, which I've driven many times in the last year. I drive at about 80 mph on the eastern Washington freeways, and I rarely get passed. I've never been on a freeway where average speeds are more than 90 mph.

But you're right about the rest.

[dazzleman]

Is that am or pm?

Neither, since I use a 24 hour clock.

[TBR]

The Montana Supreme Court that is.

And, that wasn't a breakdown of traffic safey or the highway system, that was a legal breakdown. There was no huge rise in fatalities, no public outcry, not even any real backlash from law enforcement.

In short, the system did work on a practical level.

Yes, but reasonable and prudent will have to be defined in some way for it to work legally.

[GoCougs]

Once concern I have about eliminating rural interstate speed limits is that the only thing holding back some most fools from driving way faster than conditions warrant and way beyond their skills is the threat of a speeding tickets and the resulting loss of license and increased insurance costs (provided they bother to get insurance).

That's the reality. It's nice to wish of a fairy tale that without the reigns of control and consequences that everyone plays nice. That, however, is simply unrealistic.

[GoCougs]

I'd peg that number at a mere fraction of a percent of people who drive fast. I'd be willing to bet that considering the avereage speeds on many interstates, that speeding tickets aren't threatening anyone.

An example is I90 in washington state. State patrol is estimating that the average speeds on I90 out there are approching triple digits, and recent snesor data shows over 90% of drivers speed on that highway. Speed limits are 75 mph, I do believe, so the threat of tickets is not stopping anyone, and it is obvious that there is a disconnect between what seems to be comfortable and safe (judging by accident rates out there) and what the posted limit is. Again, I'd be willing to bet that if the speed limits were dropped out there, than the roads woudl not run red with blood, and most people would not change their actual speeds from the elevated position they are now.

Maybe, instead of unlimited speeds, we shoudl go back to the old engineering adage of the 85th percentile speed.

I'm going to be so bold as to state that I've driven more miles on I-90 from Seattle to the Idaho border the last 20 years than most anyone on this forum, and I can 100% guarantee that average speeds aren't anywhere near 100 mph. No way. No how. No chance.

Speed limit is 60 mph through the major cities, 65 mph over Snoqualmie Pass, and 70 mph everywhere else. I perpetually do ~9 mph over the limit on rural sections (pretty much Issaquah 15 miles of Seattle till the Idaho border), and I am rarely, rarely passed.

I would agree that the majority do up to about 5 mph over, but does this constitute "speeding"? IMO, it doesn't if but for nothing else that speedos are off by 1-2 mph at that speed owing to all sorts of things.

IMO it is indeed the threat of tickets that keeps drivers at less than 80 mph. My general experience is that if you keep it to 5-9 mph over, you get a pass, and I surmise that's most others' experience as well. Washington State Patrol has precious few roads to patrol between Seattle and the Idaho border, so they patrol I-90 like the Dickens (using airplanes as well), and people know this.

[Rupert]

*cough* Beat you to it.

[r0tor]

So how do you deal with things like Ford Lightnings, Shelby Dakotas, Callaway Range Rover Sports, Porsche Cayenne Turbo S models, etc? Trucks/SUVs that are designed for and safe at elevated speeds? What if I BUILT a pickup in road race style? Something like a lowered Chevy LUV with a cage and sticky tires, a set back LSx engine, and trick suspension? Outside you seea typical lowered truck, but it's not. Or somehting lik ethis:



So you're saying according to your speed plan, a '01 Hyundai Excel can be in the fast lane, but that Porsche powered and custom suspension VW van or a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S cannot?


Oh, and I just noticed that you won't let '80s cars in there, either. So no custom built Pro Touring cars or even cars like my '86 RX7 Sport? That's retarded.

falls under the category of too fi'in bad

[ChrisV]

Ok, rotor, you're a fucking ignorant peice of shit, then. Good thing you're not in charge of shit.

[rohan]

Does anyone even drive 10 2 anymore? I only keep 1 hand on the wheel on the highway anyways. Only when the road gets very twisty I put both my hands on the wheel.

That's the reason we don't want to remove speed limits- too many people not taking proper care to drive the way their trained.  You won't even follow a simple rule like 10/2 - how do we expect  others to do anything different at well 0over 100?

[ChrisV]

I'm going to be so bold as to state that I've driven more miles on I-90 from Seattle to the Idaho border the last 20 years than most anyone on this forum, and I can 100% guarantee that average speeds aren't anywhere near 100 mph. No way. No how. No chance.

Speed limit is 60 mph through the major cities, 65 mph over Snoqualmie Pass, and 70 mph everywhere else. I perpetually do ~9 mph over the limit on rural sections (pretty much Issaquah 15 miles of Seattle till the Idaho border), and I am rarely, rarely passed.

I would agree that the majority do up to about 5 mph over, but does this constitute "speeding"? IMO, it doesn't if but for nothing else that speedos are off by 1-2 mph at that speed owing to all sorts of things.

IMO it is indeed the threat of tickets that keeps drivers at less than 80 mph. My general experience is that if you keep it to 5-9 mph over, you get a pass, and I surmise that's most others' experience as well. Washington State Patrol has precious few roads to patrol between Seattle and the Idaho border, so they patrol I-90 like the Dickens (using airplanes as well), and people know this.

http://spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=16422

"The second-highest percentage of high speeders is on I-90 is near North Bend, east of Seattle. In the first four months of this year, nearly 5,000 cars there were clocked going at least 90."

Some Eastern Washington high-speed hot spots:

? I-90 between Fishtrap and Tyler, south of Medical Lake;

? Both I-90 and U.S. 395 in the Ritzville area;

? I-90 at Moses Lake;

? I-90 at Cle Elum;

Every single traffic enforcement study, including the NHTSA one finished april 2002 shows that speed enforcement has NO long-term effect on average speed. Which means that speed limits or lack thereof are not a factor in how fast average speeds are. People are NOT slowed down noticeably by the fact that they might get a ticket. Simply fact.

[rohan]

Broad "Studies" don't show fact- they show potential and probability.

[r0tor]

Ok, rotor, you're a fucking ignorant peice of shit, then. Good thing you're not in charge of shit.

Frankly, when I'm doing 90mph on the highway and I slam on the brakes because of a clusterfuck in front of me, I'd rather have a Hyundai Excel riding my ass then a 5,000+ pound Lightning truck...

[rohan]

Well rotor there shouldn't be anyone riding your ass at over 90mph.   

[GoCougs]

http://spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=16422

"The second-highest percentage of high speeders is on I-90 is near North Bend, east of Seattle. In the first four months of this year, nearly 5,000 cars there were clocked going at least 90."

Some Eastern Washington high-speed hot spots:

? I-90 between Fishtrap and Tyler, south of Medical Lake;

? Both I-90 and U.S. 395 in the Ritzville area;

? I-90 at Moses Lake;

? I-90 at Cle Elum;

Every single traffic enforcement study, including the NHTSA one finished april 2002 shows that speed enforcement has NO long-term effect on average speed. Which means that speed limits or lack thereof are not a factor in how fast average speeds are. People are NOT slowed down noticeably by the fact that they might get a ticket. Simply fact.

North Bend has very high volumes of traffic - literally tens of thousands of cars every single day. 5,000 cars in 4 months is but ~40 cars a day.

Your original assertion was that the average speed was near 100 mph. That simply can't be true if there only an infinitely small fraction is doing 90 mph +.

Speed limits and enforcement curtail speed. It doesn't work equally for everyone, but without either, roads would be a much different experience than they would be today.

[Rich]

The only reason I don't cruise at about 90-100mph on an open highway is because I might get a ticket.....

[Byteme]

http://spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=16422

"The second-highest percentage of high speeders is on I-90 is near North Bend, east of Seattle. In the first four months of this year, nearly 5,000 cars there were clocked going at least 90."

So let's do a bit of math, put these statistics in perspective.

4 months, say 123 days, 24 hours in a day for a total of 2,952 hours in four months.  You said nearly 5,000 people driving over 90, but lets round that up to 5,000 just so we have a round number to work with.  That translates into 1 vehicle every 35.42 minutes going 90+.  And there is no information on when those events occur and who they are. Many could be police responding to some emergency.  Regardless, one yahoo going 90+ out of all the cars passing a particular point an average of every 35 minutes does not show that widespread high speed speeding is taking place.  Quite the contrary.  I've been on I-95 myself and it's a busy interstate. I would guess several thousand vehicles on average pass that spot every hour.

And the fact that 90% of people speed on that highway where the speed limit is 75 could very well mean the vast majority of those speeders are doing just a couple of miles over the limit. 

I suspect I could find similar statistics for most interstates in the US.  I also suspect I would find lower percentages in Ohio, New Jersey and Pennsylvania; all states with fierce speed limit enforcement.
 

[Byteme]

I'd peg that number at a mere fraction of a percent of people who drive fast. I'd be willing to bet that considering the avereage speeds on many interstates, that speeding tickets aren't threatening anyone.

Which doesn't explain why evryone suddenly slows down to the speed limit or slower everytime they see a cop, even if the cop is out of his car engaged in harvesting revenue from someone.

I've got to disagree, I think the fear of tickets is a very real deterrent.

[r0tor]

sure as hell stops me from going over 70-75mph anywhere in PA...

[dazzleman]

The only reason I don't cruise at about 90-100mph on an open highway is because I might get a ticket.....

What speed do you drive on the highway, Rich?

I limit myself to something below 90 mph most of the time because I don't want a traffic stop that ends with me being led off in cuffs.  A ticket I can deal with, but I don't want to take it to the next level.

I don't think I'd go faster than I do in any case, even with higher speed limits.  With the level of traffic around here, and the relatively archaic and mediocre condition of the roads, I wouldn't feel comfortable at those higher speeds anyway.  But it would be fun once in a while to take it up to 120 mph or so.