Yeah, you knew i had to go there sooner or later....

[saxonyron]

Here's a question that I am in a dilemma over; do you guys usually leave your primary home defense weapon loaded at all times, or do you keep it empty?

I understand with a pistol that you can at least load the mag and leave it out of the gun, but for me I don't really have that option.  I can load the magazine tube and leave the chamber empty, but I still don't feel comfortable with guests or kids around doing that sort of thing, just in case someone finds it and starts screwing around.

At the same time, I don't want to have to grab a handful of shotgun shells and hustle them into the gun while the perp has his way in my home.

Any thoughts on that?

I keep a loaded clip and my 9mm Makarov nearby.  Can have a round chambered in about 10 seconds if the need arises.  So far the nearest thing to a need arising was a pack of coyotes descending on a foal of mne a few years ago.  I thought I'd have to come out blazing, but sadly, the bastards disappeared once I got outside.  It was exciting while it lasted though..

[Submariner]

Yes, my Nintendo blaster isn't like my SIG.

yeah 4 srs

[565]

I actually have no idea how to operate any other pistol than my Glock.

I can't imagine it being any easier.  Stick magazine in.  Pull slide.  Pull trigger,  Kill stuff.

[565]

Here's a question that I am in a dilemma over; do you guys usually leave your primary home defense weapon loaded at all times, or do you keep it empty?

I understand with a pistol that you can at least load the mag and leave it out of the gun, but for me I don't really have that option.  I can load the magazine tube and leave the chamber empty, but I still don't feel comfortable with guests or kids around doing that sort of thing, just in case someone finds it and starts screwing around.

At the same time, I don't want to have to grab a handful of shotgun shells and hustle them into the gun while the perp has his way in my home.

Any thoughts on that?

Jamming shells into the magazine in the night sucks.  I've actually managed to be completely retarded and stick a shell in backwards once, and the shell blocked the magazine release lever.  I had to take the magazine spring out to get the shell out.

[Raza]

The operation of a TV gun isn't always like a real one.

I know how to use a gun.  My dad has a pre-Brady Glock that I messed around with.

[Soup DeVille]

Jamming shells into the magazine in the night sucks.  I've actually managed to be completely retarded and stick a shell in backwards once, and the shell blocked the magazine release lever.  I had to take the magazine spring out to get the shell out.

TecLoader SL-12

[S204STi]

Both the Sig and the shotty stay in condition three (loaded, no round in chamber, safety on), in the safe, which is in the closet and about three feet from the bed.

The safe (which only holds those guns, plus a couple of unloaded rifles) is unlocked at night when either of us are home, with the bolts engaged. It takes enough force to turn the wheel that it would be very unlikely for either of the kids to do it, even if they could reach it, even if they could sneak into our room at night without being noticed. And even if they did do that, they'd still need to chamber a round before the guns actually became dangerous.

Yes, I'm sure some of you will lambast me for this method, but I see nearly zero chance of an "accident" involving the kids occuring with this setup.

When the kids are older, they will be taught about the guns, and they will be allowed to inspect, look at and shoot them when they ask to.

Thanks, that's helpful.

[S204STi]

I keep a loaded clip and my 9mm Makarov nearby.  Can have a round chambered in about 10 seconds if the need arises.  So far the nearest thing to a need arising was a pack of coyotes descending on a foal of mne a few years ago.  I thought I'd have to come out blazing, but sadly, the bastards disappeared once I got outside.  It was exciting while it lasted though..

lol!

[Soup DeVille]

Thanks, that's helpful.

Obviously, you need to look at your own circumstances and your own tactical situation when deciding how to do these things. I think my system would work partially because of the layout of my house (all one floor) gives me less warning from a break-in than it would if there was a staircase involved, and because of the particular shape of my room and line of sights towards the hallways.

Keeping a cocked and locked rifle in an open rack next to your bed gives you the fastest access, but the next to zero safety when there asre children (or anyone else) in the house. Keeping the gun and ammo in seperate locked boxes provides the best safety, but makes the weapon nearly completely useless. I think you need to take a hared logical look at your own situation and decide where in the middle of those two is right.

[S204STi]

Obviously, you need to look at your own circumstances and your own tactical situation when deciding how to do these things. I think my system would work partially because of the layout of my house (all one floor) gives me less warning from a break-in than it would if there was a staircase involved, and because of the particular shape of my room and line of sights towards the hallways.

Keeping a cocked and locked rifle in an open rack next to your bed gives you the fastest access, but the next to zero safety when there asre children (or anyone else) in the house. Keeping the gun and ammo in seperate locked boxes provides the best safety, but makes the weapon nearly completely useless. I think you need to take a hared logical look at your own situation and decide where in the middle of those two is right.

My situation is similar minus the kids.  I like the idea of a safe that is locked during the day when potential visitors are around but unlocked/closed at night.

[Lebowski]

My situation is similar minus the kids.  I like the idea of a safe that is locked during the day when potential visitors are around but unlocked/closed at night.

That's a good system, just don't forget to lock the safe when you get up in the morning.

[Soup DeVille]

That's a good system, just don't forget to lock the safe when you get up in the morning.

That is its drawback, but once something begins part of your routine, its hard not to.

I'd sooner go to work without pants at this point than leave the guns unlocked at home.

[Raza]

What the hell is a .41 Magnum?

[Soup DeVille]

What the hell is a .41 Magnum?

Exactly what it says it is. Next, you'll be asking about .444 Magnums and .454 Casulls...

[565]

It's not a matter of making the bullet lighter or slower, it's a matter of expansion and or frangible bullet vs. military spec FMJ.

BTW, as I said before I am not very knowledgable about assault rifles.  I'm going by what I've read on the internet, not first hand experience.  I would want to do more research before actually using an AR15 for self defense, I was just making an off hand comment.  There was a site posted on glocktalk.com a while back that tested the penetration of a .223 (either frangible or hollow point, I don't recall) through wallboard, and determined it wasn't any more likely to penetrate than a handgun, in fact I think it was less likely to penetrate than the handgun.  Of course, I can't find that article now.  I'll post it if I can find it later.

It's very interesting how things penetrate and how people vastly over estimate the penetration of a rifle bullet (through the criminal, through the wall and into a neighbor)and vasty underestimate the penetration power of other weapons, like say a shotgun (they think the 00 buck pellets will stop in the bad guy).  Alot of those .223 rounds were designed to penetrate enough as FMJ and don't really penetrate all that much overall.

In ballistics gel testing (at home defense range 3 yards) you can see that the 69 grain .223 penetrates about 13 inches.  Supposedly you want at least 12 inches of penetration for stopping power, so the .223 just meets that lethal mark and doesn't really over penetrate. (Red lethal line is 12 inches)



http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/223_69gr_Sierra_HPBT_14in_barrel/gelatin_69gr_sierra_hpbt.html

Even a 150 gr .308 round designed to fragment for personal defense doesn't overpenetrate like crazy either.  Here it is penetrating about 16 inches.



http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/308_155gr_hornady_tap_18in_barrel/gelatin_308_155gr_hornady_amax.html



By comparision, the 00 Buck shot can overpenetrate and you have to be careful with it.  I've got 12 pellet 00 Buck in the guns right now, which penetrates the least of the full power 00 bucks (more shot, less powder).

It still manages to penetrate a whomping 20 inches.



http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_00_fed_mag/gelatin_buckshot_00_mag.html


Standard 9 pellet 00 buck will penetrate even more, here at over 22 inches.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/buck_fed_00_classic/buck_fed_00_classic.html

Even those low recoil 8 pellet 00 buck tactical rounds will penetrate over 20 inches of gel.



http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/buck_00_rem_tac/gelatin_buckshot_00_rem_tac.html


And just for comparsion that cheapo #8 birdshot you get at Walmart isn't really suitable for home defense, only about 4 inches of penetration.



http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/bird_8_heavy_dove/gelatin_shot_8.html

[Lebowski]

You may not have qualms, but after the prototypical AR-15 .223/5.56/7.62 round rips through your walls and into your neighbors' homes, it'd be a different matter. It's only really be safe for home defense if bastardized for pistol rounds but and then it becomes a self-defeating weapon.

While we're on the topic of penetration:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=27

the quick and dirty:

The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the over penetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.

The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin. 

[GoCougs]

Uh, go down to your local gun shop and tell the guys behind the counter you want to buy a .223, 7.62x54, .308W, .30-'06, et al., for home defense.

I have plenty of experience shooting these rifle cartridges, plus a fair number of pistol cartridges (9MM, .38, .40S&W, .357M and 44M), at things in hindsight I shouldn't have been shooting at; whatever was at the gravel pits left by other shooters - old RVs, vehicles, 55 gallon drums, rail road ties, all manner of appliances, etc.

There is simply no comparison. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Zippo. I've seen the 7.62x54 out of an SKS rip through two rail road ties, though a tree about the diameter of telephone pole, all the way though a car front to back, plus other amazing feats (not all at once). There's a reason why there are rifles and pistols.

And the physics will tell you much of this as well. The muzzle energy of your average above rifle cartridge is many, many times that of your average pistol cartridge, and just as importantly, the energy is dissipated over a much smaller area (usually) - both of which speak volumes to deeper penetration.

The only specific comparison test I (we) did was the SKS 7.62x54 vs. .44M. The .44M had a leg up versus a pistol as it was being shot out my 18" lever-action Winchester. Both rounds were FMJ. The .44M couldn't hold a candle at anything we shot at. Of course there's the caveat the the load and bullet tell the whole story, but not to this extent. The .44M wouldn't make it through two 2x4s; the 7.62 easily zipped through 5+. Suffice it to say that the on-scene .40S&W, 9MM and .38 might as well have been .22LR compared to the rifles.

As to the penetration of 00-buck - chalk that up mostly to synergistic impact. One 00-buck pellet won't penetrate nearly like a shell full - when a shell is fired the pellets don't all strike the target at the same time plus the pattern will be spread out, aiding in penetration by way of "softening."

[Raza]

Exactly what it says it is. Next, you'll be asking about .444 Magnums and .454 Casulls...

Okay, what is the point of a .41 Magnum, and why isn't as widely known/used as .357 and .44 Magnums?

Also, if I go the revolver route, Taurus does seem to have some pretty good deals.  Right now, I'm thinking about a 4" Taurus Model 66, a 7 shot .357 Mag. 

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=278&category=Revolver



What is it about Taurus that makes them so second tier?  I only knew of them as a company that made cheap Beretta 92 knockoffs. 

[Lebowski]

Uh, go down to your local gun shop and tell the guys behind the counter you want to buy a .223, 7.62x54, .308W, .30-'06, et al., for home defense.

blah blah blah I know everything blah blah blah ....

30-'06?  I should ask about the 30-06 because that's relevant to an AR15 how?

I was talking very specifically about .223, and assuming a round was chosen for the specific task of indoor self defense (like a 55gr soft point).

That said if I ever get around to taking some shooting lessons at my local range, I will ask the instructor what his opinion is.  I understand any of those CAN penetrate a wall, it just seems from what I've read that .223 with the properly chosen ammunition isn't significantly more likely to than many of the common handgun calibers.  Either way you have to be careful.  And yes I know the difference between a rifle and a handgun, I'm talking about a bullet that fragments on impact, not one that fails to penetrate due to lack of energy.

[Soup DeVille]

. I've seen the 7.62x54 out of an SKS rip through two rail road ties,

SKS is chambered for 7.62x 39. if you had an SKS looking rifle chambered in 7.62 X 54R, you probably had a Romak-3.

[Soup DeVille]

Okay, what is the point of a .41 Magnum, and why isn't as widely known/used as .357 and .44 Magnums?

Also, if I go the revolver route, Taurus does seem to have some pretty good deals.  Right now, I'm thinking about a 4" Taurus Model 66, a 7 shot .357 Mag. 

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=278&category=Revolver



What is it about Taurus that makes them so second tier?  I only knew of them as a company that made cheap Beretta 92 knockoffs. 

I think the .41 magnum lacks a rebated rim, and is a revolver-only cartridge. There are lots of underutilized, oddball calibers that you rarely hear about.

Taurus makes very good revolvers. You have to realize that there are a lot of snobbish gun-polishers out there that look down on anything othe rthan their pet brand.

[Minpin]

After Boondock Saints, I never want a six shooter. 

[Submariner]

My situation is similar minus the kids.  I like the idea of a safe that is locked during the day when potential visitors are around but unlocked/closed at night.

A real smart idea.

There are no kids in my life at this point, and there rarely are children under the age of 14 around.  If they are, they're with there parents, so gun security isnt a real concern. 

Home invasions are very possible in the day, however.  Keep the gun relatively accessable no matter what.

[Raza]

After Boondock Saints, I never want a six shooter. 

Well, Faceman packed a .357 revolver.  And it seems that all medium frame .357s from Taurus are 7 or 8 shot.

[Lebowski]

Damn, I'm really starting to seriously consider getting a rifle now ... leaning towards M1A after researching them a bit.

First I need to find a good outdoor range in my area, though.  Something tells me shooting a rifle at my local indoor range that only goes out to 15 yards wouldn't be too much fun (there's another indoor range a bit further away that goes out to 25 yards, but still).

[GoCougs]

SKS is chambered for 7.62x 39. if you had an SKS looking rifle chambered in 7.62 X 54R, you probably had a Romak-3.

My bad - it was an SKS so 7.62 x 39.