New BMW Z4 leaked

[sportyaccordy]

Sort of like the new Ferrari California.  Likely for the same reason too (the hard top).

Just about to say, it looks like the Cali

Hopefully the fixed top will FINALLY have the right roofline & rear window

[ChrisV]

 

It's like beer, for instance.  If you don't know how to taste beer or you're drinking Natty, the whole experience can be one way versus if you know how to identify the flavors, the experience can be completely different.  I think that's what ChrisV is trying to say.

An interesting analogy, and pretty much spot on.

I know, but I can't help it.  I just don't get it how he can tie knowledge and experience with aesthetics.  It blows my mind.  I don't like the classic hot rod because I think it's ugly, but that doesn't mean I'm inexperienced or not knowledgeable.

Actually, yes, it does. As teuton alluded to, mechanical aesthetics are a learned process. Look at the wide range of vehicles that we consider attractive that look absolutely nothing like each other. Form a car like the ferrari Dino to a well built Jeep CJ5, to a sedan like my E38 to an Audi R10 LMP car.  Hell, even when it comes to appliances. How can a refrigerator  be "attractive" and a, say, Scion xB not? They are basically the same shape! It's simple. we've "learned" what particular forms are in relation to the intended use.

If you've spent time with the classic sports cars, and you understand what makes them great because you've experienced that first hand, you have a different LEARNED perspective than someone that hasn't. The aesthetics of the form don't change, but your knowledge of their reasoning (the "why" of their existence) is different. Your LEARNED perspective on the form is BASED on the knowledge and experience you have with the form. It is NOT innate and inherent in the human animal. NO mechanical form IS.

You've made the classic mistake of thinking your appreciation (or dislike) of any given mechanical form is a natural response. It is not. It is learned, and it can be unlearned by exposure, experience, and knowledge. And someone who professes to be an automotive enthusiast would/should WANT to increase each of those, not fight so strenuously AGAINST them. the fact that people would rather fight against knowlewdge and appreciation is what saddens me. it makes them look small minded, petty, and intentionally and willfully striving for ignorance and hatred, neither of which seem to me to be positive attributes that should be respected.

[Tave]

Wow


I'm of the opinion that if someone prefers the styling of the Z4 over the SLK, or vice versa, then that's their perogative, and I could care less.

The idea that opinions about style would be reconciled if everyone learned more about automotive engineering is, at best, a little leaky. Even in the enthusiast community, you are going to have people gravitate towards different styles of cars.

Some people like the looks of car X and some people don't. That's not a bad thing

[Tave]

An interesting analogy, and pretty much spot on.

So let's continue it for awhile.

My friend John and I both enjoy microbrews. He prefers IPAs, while I tend towards stouts and oatmeal stouts. Does that make either of us "wrong" for not liking the other's choice?

[Eye of the Tiger]

And so it comes down to the two types of people:

1. artsy superficial wow that looks pretty what do you call that color look at all the lights people
2. hands on how's it work pop the hood let's take it apart i want to feel the pistons people

[Tave]

No, I bet there are plenty of gear heads who appreciate a beautiful car.



People simply have different tastes. Take the same woman and two dudes, and one might find her irresistable while the other guy thinks she's so-so. Of course, there's going to be those few women who drive every guy wild, but mostly it's just a range of preferences and personal reactions.



And you guys shouldn't be bitching about it. If people didn't value and respond differently to various styles, then we wouldn't have nearly the amount of choices to choose from which we do now.

[Eye of the Tiger]

No, I bet there are plenty of gear heads who appreciate a beautiful car.



People simply have different tastes. Take the same woman and two dudes, and one might find her irresistable while the other guy thinks she's so-so. Of course, there's going to be those few women who drive every guy wild, but mostly it's just a range of preferences and personal reactions.



And you guys shouldn't be bitching about it. If people didn't value and respond differently to various styles, then we wouldn't have nearly the amount of choices to choose from which we do know.

No? NO. You said NO TO ME!?!? !!??!!ME!?!!??!!!!1!!!!

NOBODY SAYS NO TO ME!!!!!!!




AAHHAHAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!RARARAWAR!!!!!!!

[SVT666]

An interesting analogy, and pretty much spot on.

Actually, yes, it does. As teuton alluded to, mechanical aesthetics are a learned process. Look at the wide range of vehicles that we consider attractive that look absolutely nothing like each other. Form a car like the ferrari Dino to a well built Jeep CJ5, to a sedan like my E38 to an Audi R10 LMP car.  Hell, even when it comes to appliances. How can a refrigerator  be "attractive" and a, say, Scion xB not? They are basically the same shape! It's simple. we've "learned" what particular forms are in relation to the intended use.

If you've spent time with the classic sports cars, and you understand what makes them great because you've experienced that first hand, you have a different LEARNED perspective than someone that hasn't. The aesthetics of the form don't change, but your knowledge of their reasoning (the "why" of their existence) is different. Your LEARNED perspective on the form is BASED on the knowledge and experience you have with the form. It is NOT innate and inherent in the human animal. NO mechanical form IS.

You've made the classic mistake of thinking your appreciation (or dislike) of any given mechanical form is a natural response. It is not. It is learned, and it can be unlearned by exposure, experience, and knowledge. And someone who professes to be an automotive enthusiast would/should WANT to increase each of those, not fight so strenuously AGAINST them. the fact that people would rather fight against knowlewdge and appreciation is what saddens me. it makes them look small minded, petty, and intentionally and willfully striving for ignorance and hatred, neither of which seem to me to be positive attributes that should be respected.

I can agree with a lot of that...to a point.  I have been around hot rods my whole life.  I have worked on hot rods, and I have driven a couple in my days.  I appreciate the skill and workmanship that went into building it, and you can be damned sure I appreciate the fine small block V8s that get put into those things, and they are fun as hell, but...I still think they're ugly, and I still don't want one.

[the Teuton]

On another note, I think I am going to agree with Sander.  I have driven a few BMWs, and let me say this one is gorgeous.  I'm still a Z3 guy, but this car looks great.

[Cookie Monster]

I'm starting to like it more but I really want to see a Coupe version.

I think an M Coupe would look awesome. I know that the current M coupe looks gorgeous so I want to see what they'll do to this thing.

[MX793]

Said it before, he took the styling helm in '92.

But Bangle wasn't actually the one doing the designing until the late 90s/early 2000s.  I believe the first complete car he penned for BMW was the '99 Z9 concept car and the first Bangle-penned production car was the E65 7-series of 2002.  Prior to then, he was primarily overseeing.

[2o6]

Is it bad that I actually liked most of Bangle's designs? He brought a flair and daring attitude to once staid BMW's. (For better or for worse) He pushed other automakers to be daring and different, besides the boring old luxury attitude.

[Rich]

But Bangle wasn't actually the one doing the designing until the late 90s/early 2000s.  I believe the first complete car he penned for BMW was the '99 Z9 concept car and the first Bangle-penned production car was the E65 7-series of 2002.  Prior to then, he was primarily overseeing.

Designer gets pen to paper before he becomes a manager, not the other way around.

As a manager you have more say in what the car will ultimately look like, but before then, as a lower level designer, they concentrate on giving those managers the options to choose from.

[Rich]

I attended one of the 3 transportation design schools in the US for a couple of years and was taught by designers in the industry, and I can confidently say that Chris V is wrong.   Not totally (there are principles of good design) but aesthetics is mostly an opinion, even the best designers in the business know it.

But, after going back and reading the 2nd page, long hood, short deck proportion with a solid stand stance (a lot of tumblehome) is one of those principles of good design

[MrH]

Absolutely love it.  Definitely in my top 5 favorite designs out right now (up there with the S5, R8, and *gasp* dare I say 911?).  I had a list of used cars to consider if I get a good paying job right out of college, but one of these new or a half a year old is waaaay up there now.  Also, I appreciate folding hard tops unlike some of you guys.  I'm not tracking the car probably.  I want a fun car to drive on the road.  70-100+ lbs more isn't all that big of a deal to me.  Certainly not a deal breaker, and the road isolation for when it's cold would be great.

[Submariner]

Is it bad that I actually liked most of Bangle's designs? He brought a flair and daring attitude to once staid BMW's. (For better or for worse) He pushed other automakers to be daring and different, besides the boring old luxury attitude.

Yeah it's bad.

[MX793]

Designer gets pen to paper before he becomes a manager, not the other way around.

As a manager you have more say in what the car will ultimately look like, but before then, as a lower level designer, they concentrate on giving those managers the options to choose from.

Bangle was a designer for Fiat immediately prior to being hired as head of design for the BMW brand in 1992.  That was the lowest position he ever held at BMW.  He was responsible for the Fiat turbo coupe and was promoted to be Fiat's head of design about a year before BMW scooped him up.  The first BMW design that can be credited to Bangle's handy work was the '99 Z9 concept, followed by the E65 in '02.

EDIT:  You're correct that Bangle isn't the man actually penning the cars.  That credit goes to Adrian van Hooydonk.  However, Bangle is the one who chose these designs as the future of BMW.

[Submariner]

No? NO. You said NO TO ME!?!? !!??!!ME!?!!??!!!!1!!!!

NOBODY SAYS NO TO ME!!!!!!!




AAHHAHAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!RARARAWAR!!!!!!!

What the hell are those weird looking bear things anyways?

[Eye of the Tiger]

What the hell are those weird looking bear things anyways?

His name is Meatloaf Man, I think.

[Laconian]

Domo-kun

[Raza]

It does look good with the top down.

[Raza]

I'm starting to like it more but I really want to see a Coupe version.

I think an M Coupe would look awesome. I know that the current M coupe looks gorgeous so I want to see what they'll do to this thing.

Didn't read the press release, but I would think a hardtop convertible says that they're not going to make a fixed top coupe.

[Minpin]

There is a lot of 6 series in the car, which IMO is not a good thing. It shouldnt be a "baby" 6 series, a la, the SLK is a baby SL. It should be able to look different and be all on its "own".

Whatever they are trying to make this car into, they will sell a gazillion of them....

[ChrisV]

I attended one of the 3 transportation design schools in the US for a couple of years and was taught by designers in the industry, and I can confidently say that Chris V is wrong.   Not totally (there are principles of good design) but aesthetics is mostly an opinion, even the best designers in the business know it.

But, after going back and reading the 2nd page, long hood, short deck proportion with a solid stand stance (a lot of tumblehome) is one of those principles of good design

If it was only a matter of opinion, it couldn't be taught, and graduates from a "school of design" wouldn't be sought after, as their educated position wouldn't be important.

As you mentioned, however, there ARE principles of good design, that can be learned, and they come from specific things. In this case, there's a  mechanical and dynamic reason why this (long hood, short deck) is good design, and those reasons CAN be learned. That means exactly that knowledge can leads to an appreciation of design.

No one has addressed why a refrigerator can be considered good looking, and the same forms in a car are not.

Doesn't matter, as here are more pics of the Z4...

http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199848

I love the proportions and lines on it, especially in that blue!

[SJ_GTI]

I am digging it, but the front overhang is a bit too much IMHO. I am guessing that's because of the new crash standards though.

It makes me miss my Z3.

[TBR]

I am actually starting to like this, though I am a little concerned about its size compared to the Z3/Z4, it definitely looks considerably larger.

[Vinsanity]

It costs as much as a Porsche Boxster. Dammit.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/28/bmw-z4-priced-from-46-575

[Onslaught]

It costs as much as a Porsche Boxster. Dammit.

Darn, too much for me.

[Vinsanity]

It's probably a better deal than the SLK, but at those price points, I'd take either the added utility of the E93 convertible or the cachet of the Boxster.

Not to mention the G37 convertible...

[MrH]

Jeebus, that thing is expensive.  To get the Z4 SiDrivesomethingorother 35i, it's $54,000 to start?!  More expensive than the last M roadster, and with less power.