Police Pursuits Questioned in Philly

Started by TurboDan, December 18, 2008, 10:26:21 PM

TurboDan

This was a HUGE cover story from the Philadelphia Daily News today.  When I saw it, I bought the paper and read the excellent story.  I'm copying the web version of it below.  Really gives both sides and makes you think about this stuff:

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/top_story/Police_pursuits_can_be_costly__in_money_and_lives.html

Police pursuits can be costly ? in money and lives

By DANA DiFILIPPO
Philadelphia Daily News

difilid@phillynews.com 215-854-5934
TWO BOYS were on the corner, waiting to cross the street, when trucker Robert De-Paul, idling at the light, heard the screaming sirens and the raucous whine of an engine pushed to its limits.

One boy dashed across, making it safely to the other side.

Darnell Malik Bennett wasn't so lucky.

As DePaul watched in horror, the 14-year-old Fern Rock boy stepped into the crosswalk on Broad Street near Chelten Avenue and into the path of a speeding motorcycle. The biker smashed into Bennett and sent him flying 80 feet.

In the incident report, Police Officer Daniel Sweeney noted De-Paul's fury at the "piece-of-s---" cyclist, who'd blown through a red light, passing stopped traffic illegally by zooming down the turning lane.

But Sweeney didn't mention his own role in the wreck: The cop had been chasing the cyclist at high speeds for at least nine blocks through the dense residential streets of West Oak Lane on a sunny spring afternoon, just as hundreds of students were let out from nearby Gen. Louis Wagner Middle School.

The biker's initial offense: He wasn't wearing a helmet.

Although the incident occurred five years ago, it resonates today: Bennett remains permanently brain-damaged and partially crippled from the collision, his family still battling the city, the Police Department and the cyclist in an unresolved civil lawsuit.

And anti-pursuit advocates say his experience offers ample proof of why police departments should restrict or even forbid pursuits altogether.

Police watchdogs say that too often officers pursue unjustifiably,and the result can be deadly.

Nationally, an average of a person a day ? 368 last year ? dies of injuries suffered in police pursuits, according to the federal Fatal Analysis Reporting System. The advocacy group Pursuit Watch.org estimates that 4,000 people are injured annually in police pursuits.

In Philadelphia, where two police officers have died and another 59 people have been injured in pursuits this year, Police Commissioner Charles H. Ramsey has decided that the department's pursuit policy is too lax and plans changes to take effect next month.

"This department is 10 to 15 years behind other major cities with its pursuit policy," said Ramsey, former commissioner of the Washington, D.C., police department, which has one of the nation's most restrictive policies. "It's not consistent with best practices."

Philadelphia's policy, crafted in 1994, allows pursuits to nab someone suspected of committing a violent felony, such as murder, kidnapping or rape; to apprehend someone with a deadly weapon who used or intends to use it, and to recover a stolen car if the driver breaks traffic laws to elude arrest.

Ramsey declined to divulge what policy changes are in store, saying the final draft was being reviewed by the Fraternal Order of Police.

"I'm not saying there won't be any more pursuits, but we will have a higher threshold," Ramsey said.

According to a copy of the new policy obtained by the Daily News, pursuits will be justifiable in only two cases: if the officer believes it will prevent someone's death or serious injury; or if a pursuit is necessary to nab someone who committed, or tried to commit, a violent felony or who possesses a deadly weapon.

Nationally, police departments are tightening their pursuit policies, with some banning them altogether and others allowing officers to pursue only known violent offenders. D.C.'s policy, crafted in 1991 after seven bystanders died during police pursuits, mirrors the new policy Ramsey proposes for Philadelphia.

Lt. Frank Vanore, the Philadelphia Police Department's chief spokesman, offered a simple defense of police pursuits.

"If people run and we just let them go, nobody's going to stop for us," Vanore said.

But the nation's leading experts on police pursuits say that's one of two deep-rooted myths that should be corrected.

"Police say: 'If we don't chase, everybody's going to run.' That's just not true. Most people do stop," said Geoffrey Alpert, a criminal-justice professor at the University of South Carolina who co-authored the book "Pursuit Driving: What We Know."

Further, people who do flee police aren't necessarily serial killers, Alpert said.

"Most are not fleeing because they have a dead body in the trunk. They're fleeing because they're making bad decisions," Alpert said.

In a 1997 study he did for the U.S. Department of Justice, Alpert determined that only 16 percent of suspects who fled police had been involved in serious criminal activity.

Alpert also found that about 40 percent of police pursuits end in crashes, and 20 percent in injury.

Further, the more cruisers that are involved in a chase, the more likely a collision will occur, Alpert determined. Ramsey's proposed policy would address that by restricting pursuits to just two vehicles and prohibiting cruiser "caravans."

In Philadelphia, pursuits are down from last year, with 207 through Halloween this year, compared with 321 for all of 2007, according to police statistics.

But those pursuits are increasingly ending with smoke and twisted metal. Thirty percent of the police pursuits so far this year ended in crashes, up from 22 percent last year, according to police data. Pursuit-related crashes represented a tenth of all the 667 police-involved collisions last year, according to the data.

And police crashes can be costly. Philadelphia has paid out $1.7 million since 2000 for police-related crashes, according to city data.

"This is not an anti-police campaign," said Candy Priano, a California mother who started the group Voices Insisting on Pursuit Safety after her 15-year-old daughter, Kristie, died in 2002 when a teenager being pursued by police T-boned the Priano family's minivan. "But in too many cases, the suspect poses no immediate danger to the public, and it's the chase itself that threatens the public. Most suspects can be arrested through good police work, rather than a pursuit."

Priano added: "Chasing for a traffic violation is clearly not a reason for a chase. Police should only chase suspects for known violent crimes. Anything less than that is just not worth the risk to the public or to our officers."

That became tragically clear in Philadelphia this fall, when two officers in unrelated pursuits were killed in collisions.

In September, Officer Isabel Nazario died and Officer Terry Tull was seriously injured after a joyriding teenager fleeing police T-boned their cruiser in Mantua. Officers began that mile-long, high-speed chase because 16-year-old Andre Butler was driving erratically and making U-turns that grazed parked cars. Nazario and Tull were rushing to join the pursuit when Butler hit them.

And last month, Sgt. Timothy Simpson died after a Levittown man trying to elude police broadsided Simpson's cruiser in Port Richmond. Officers had been chasing William Foster because he was driving erratically. Simpson, responding to an unrelated robbery call, was not involved in that chase.

Sometimes, the price of pursuits is measured in decades.

Darnell Bennett was 14 when Paul Eugene McDuffy, a Yeadon man fleeing police on a red Honda motorcycle, hit him on May 15, 2003.

Bennett was walking home from school when McDuffy mowed him down, leaving him permanently brain-damaged and partially crippled.

The preceding events would later come out in depositions, after attorney Howard Popper sued the city, the Police Department, Sweeney, McDuffy and the bike's owner, on Bennett's behalf.

Popper declined to allow interviews with Bennett's family, because the case remains in litigation. McDuffy couldn't be reached for comment.

But Sweeney, at deposition and in an interview last week, said McDuffy first caught his attention at Bouvier Street and 66th Avenue, where the cop, then a five-year veteran, was patrolling what he described as a "well-known drug location."

Police Department policy discourages pursuits of motorcycles but does permit officers to chase stolen vehicles if the driver breaks traffic laws to elude arrest.

Sweeney testified at deposition that he believed that the motorcycle had been stolen, although he couldn't specify why. The bike had not been stolen; it belonged to McDuffy's girlfriend, according to court paperwork.

Last week, he further explained that he suspected McDuffy was acting as a lookout for drug dealers. And although McDuffy wasn't speeding, he was "driving in circles" and wasn't wearing a helmet, which then was illegal, Sweeney said.

Sweeney last week denied that he had pursued McDuffy; rather, he said, he "followed" him at a distance to "monitor" his activity and gain time to run his license plate to check if the motorcycle was stolen.

When McDuffy turned onto busy Broad Street, Sweeney turned on his lights and siren to warn motorists and pedestrians and gave dispatchers at the 35th District headquarters at Broad and Champlost a heads-up that McDuffy was coming their way.

But by then, McDuffy had run over Bennett.

After the collision, Bennett spent a month in a coma and a year recovering from broken bones and head trauma in area hospitals and rehabilitation centers.

But the boy who loved cars will never drive one ? or even be agile enough to tinker with the engine in a garage. And although he loved playing football, basketball and baseball, he now can do little more than watch from the sidelines.

That's because his injuries are long-lasting and debilitating, his attorney and doctors say.

He has had multiple surgeries and ongoing physical therapy to improve his mobility, Popper said.

Bennett uses a cane to get around, but he falls so much that his neurologist predicts he'll eventually have to use a wheelchair, Popper added.

Bennett is a senior at Ben Franklin High School, where he'll stay until he's 21, Popper said. He has suffered from depression and vision loss, and now relies on his mother to do simple tasks such as tying his shoes or bathing, Popper said.

"High-speed chases rarely make sense for the officers involved or for the citizenry, particularly in cases of nonviolent or traffic offenses," Popper said. "This case speaks for itself."

Sweeney said he feels "terrible" for Bennett's ordeal.

And he remains angry, five years later, that McDuffy was never charged in the wreck.

Lt. Vanore said suspects generally are charged in such incidents. The two fleeing drivers that caused the wrecks that killed Nazario and Simpson earlier this fall were charged with murder and related charges.

He said he didn't know why McDuffy hadn't been charged.

Sweeney does.

"Plain carelessness on behalf of AID (the Accident Investigation Division), and you can quote me on that," Sweeney said. "They told me they were going to get a warrant for his arrest for aggravated assault. But they didn't even charge him with a traffic offense. Criminally, they made this guy not responsible at all for what he did. And that makes things [litigation] worse for me."

Sweeney said he feels like a scapegoat.

"It's the deep-pockets theory, where people think the city of Philadelphia has the deep pockets to stand behind this police officer, so they're going to make me look like a monster and overlook the responsibility of the motorcycle operator," said Sweeney, who works in the 2nd District, at Harbison and Levick, in the Northeast, but is detailed to the Northeast Detectives warrant unit.

He's more cautious about initiating pursuits, he said.

"When you decide to start a pursuit, you are putting a lot of people in jeopardy, but you have to consider what the person is wanted for. With them out on the street, they are also a danger to society," Sweeney said. "It's a catch-22. It's a lot to weigh in an instant."

FOP President John McNesby agreed. "Police officers have just a split second to make a decision [whether to pursue], and everybody else has hours and days to second-guess their decision later." *

James Young

{FOP President John McNesby agreed. "Police officers have just a split second to make a decision [whether to pursue] . . . }

An officer can call off the chase at any point he chooses.  When he deliberately continues the pursuit, he must be held accountable for that decision. 

{ . . .and everybody else has hours and days to second-guess their decision later."}

What??!!  I?m shocked ? shocked, I tell you ? to learn that life is unfair and it applies to LEOs as well.
Freedom is dangerous.  You can either accept the risks that come with it or eventually lose it all step-by-step.  Each step will be justified by its proponents as a minor inconvenience that will help make us all "safer."  Personally, I'd rather have a slightly more dangerous world that respects freedom more. ? The Speed Criminal

GoCougs

It sucks, but you simply can't let people run from the police.

As to the story original story - the fault rests 100% with the subhuman piece of garbage biker, not the pursuing LEO.

dazzleman

I agree that the blame for any fatalities resulting from police changes belongs with the person fleeing police.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Byteme

Quote from: GoCougs on December 18, 2008, 10:48:41 PM
It sucks, but you simply can't let people run from the police.

As to the story original story - the fault rests 100% with the subhuman piece of garbage biker, not the pursuing LEO.

Oh, I agree entirely and I'm sure that comforting to the boy's family.   :rolleyes:

The police were just doing their job in this case but you have to really ask yourself if the risks involved in a high speed chase through crowded city streets is worth it to enforce a no helmet infraction.

S204STi

The fact that the guy ran makes you wonder if he had a wrap sheet already, in which case yeah it might have been worth it.

Just because people get hurt when cops do their job doesn't mean we should keep the cops from doing it.

Byteme

Quote from: R-inge on December 19, 2008, 11:02:25 AM
The fact that the guy ran makes you wonder if he had a wrap sheet already, in which case yeah it might have been worth it.

Just because people get hurt when cops do their job doesn't mean we should keep the cops from doing it.

I don't disagree and the police ar going to be criticized whether they decide to chase the guy or let him go.  There is no easy answer.  But, from the article:

In a 1997 study he did for the U.S. Department of Justice, Alpert determined that only 16 percent of suspects who fled police had been involved in serious criminal activity.

Alpert also found that about 40 percent of police pursuits end in crashes, and 20 percent in injury.

Further, the more cruisers that are involved in a chase, the more likely a collision will occur, Alpert determined. Ramsey's proposed policy would address that by restricting pursuits to just two vehicles and prohibiting cruiser "caravans."

MX793

Since we're talking about police pursuits and who should be at fault if someone is injured or killed, what are all your takes on this one.

A couple of years ago, a NY State Trooper was killed in a crash while pursuing a speeding motorcycle.  The officer was driving along when a bike in the oncoming lane blew by him.  He turned his Chevy Tahoe around, radioed in that he was in pursuit, and took off after the bike at high speed.  A few miles later the officer lost control of his SUV in a bend, struck a tree and was killed.

The cyclist said he gunned it when he saw the Trooper in hopes of getting away without getting ticketed (I assume figuring that the officer wouldn't bother trying to catch him if he was going fast enough).  He claimed he wasn't aware that the Trooper had attempted to actually pursue him or that the officer had crashed during said attempted pursuit until he heard about the accident on the evening news after getting home.

Charges against the cyclist included manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.  He was found guilty on the homicide charge and sentenced to 7 years.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

dazzleman

Quote from: Byteme on December 19, 2008, 08:26:08 AM
Oh, I agree entirely and I'm sure that comforting to the boy's family.   :rolleyes:

The police were just doing their job in this case but you have to really ask yourself if the risks involved in a high speed chase through crowded city streets is worth it to enforce a no helmet infraction.

People rarely run from the police over traffic violations.  If a cop tries to pull you over for a traffic violation, and you flee in a risky manner, it usually means that there's a warrant for your arrest on more serious charges, or something of that nature.  That's why I'd be very reluctant to say that police shouldn't pursue people who flee for traffic violations.  Chances are, if a person is willing to go to such lengths to get away from the police, that person is dangerous in some way.  The issue is to balance the danger from that person with the danger of the pursuit.  It's not an easy decision.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

dazzleman

Quote from: MX793 on December 19, 2008, 06:57:16 PM
Since we're talking about police pursuits and who should be at fault if someone is injured or killed, what are all your takes on this one.

A couple of years ago, a NY State Trooper was killed in a crash while pursuing a speeding motorcycle.  The officer was driving along when a bike in the oncoming lane blew by him.  He turned his Chevy Tahoe around, radioed in that he was in pursuit, and took off after the bike at high speed.  A few miles later the officer lost control of his SUV in a bend, struck a tree and was killed.

The cyclist said he gunned it when he saw the Trooper in hopes of getting away without getting ticketed (I assume figuring that the officer wouldn't bother trying to catch him if he was going fast enough).  He claimed he wasn't aware that the Trooper had attempted to actually pursue him or that the officer had crashed during said attempted pursuit until he heard about the accident on the evening news after getting home.

Charges against the cyclist included manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.  He was found guilty on the homicide charge and sentenced to 7 years.

He deserved the conviction.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: MX793 on December 19, 2008, 06:57:16 PM
Since we're talking about police pursuits and who should be at fault if someone is injured or killed, what are all your takes on this one.

A couple of years ago, a NY State Trooper was killed in a crash while pursuing a speeding motorcycle.  The officer was driving along when a bike in the oncoming lane blew by him.  He turned his Chevy Tahoe around, radioed in that he was in pursuit, and took off after the bike at high speed.  A few miles later the officer lost control of his SUV in a bend, struck a tree and was killed.

The cyclist said he gunned it when he saw the Trooper in hopes of getting away without getting ticketed (I assume figuring that the officer wouldn't bother trying to catch him if he was going fast enough).  He claimed he wasn't aware that the Trooper had attempted to actually pursue him or that the officer had crashed during said attempted pursuit until he heard about the accident on the evening news after getting home.

Charges against the cyclist included manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.  He was found guilty on the homicide charge and sentenced to 7 years.

If that's true, I'm moving to Canada.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Soup DeVille

Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 07:00:22 PM
He deserved the conviction.

I disagree. A LEO accepts a certain amount of risk when he takes the job, or more specifically, engages in a pursuit. The cyclist should be found guilty of attempting to flee, or any similar type of violation that he actually did commit, that's all.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

dazzleman

Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 19, 2008, 07:02:27 PM
I disagree. A LEO accepts a certain amount of risk when he takes the job, or more specifically, engages in a pursuit. The cyclist should be found guilty of attempting to flee, or any similar type of violation that he actually did commit, that's all.

Just because an officer accepts risk doesn't mean that those who cause them harm shouldn't be punished for it.  Fleeing a police officer is a dangerous act that could cause harm to any number of people who just happen to cross your path, including the officer.  I say he fully deserved the conviction.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Soup DeVille

Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 07:06:16 PM
Just because an officer accepts risk doesn't mean that those who cause them harm shouldn't be punished for it.  Fleeing a police officer is a dangerous act that could cause harm to any number of people who just happen to cross your path, including the officer.  I say he fully deserved the conviction.

He did not directly cause any harm to the officer. He did not make the officer chase him. He did not make the officer crash.

Many officers die every year by being struck by vehicles while stopped on the side of the road for ordinary trafic citations.

If the person they had pulled over had not had a burned out brake bulb and thus required the officer to stop them, that officer that was struck at htat stop would not have died. Should a person be held criminally responsible for the death of a police officer because they had a broken brake light?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

dazzleman

Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 19, 2008, 07:10:21 PM
He did not directly cause any harm to the officer. He did not make the officer chase him. He did not make the officer crash.

Many officers die every year by being struck by vehicles while stopped on the side of the road for ordinary trafic citations.

If the person they had pulled over had not had a burned out brake bulb and thus required the officer to stop them, that officer that was struck at htat stop would not have died. Should a person be held criminally responsible for the death of a police officer because they had a broken brake light?

A broken brake light isn't necessarily willful.  Fleeing from the police is.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Eye of the Tiger

I might just get banned for this, but thinking you can turn around and chase down a speeding motorcycle in a Tahoe = stupid. LEOs can get away with breaking many laws, but not the laws of physics.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Soup DeVille

Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 07:12:51 PM
A broken brake light isn't necessarily willful.  Fleeing from the police is.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Okay, lets say the guy pulled over was in possesion of drugs, or was a DUI, or was speeding excessively. Let's say, he was suspected of felony firearms charges; and the cop who pulls him over gets creamed by a passing 18 wheeler.

Would that be willful enough to make him responsible?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

dazzleman

Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 19, 2008, 07:14:54 PM
Okay, lets say the guy pulled over was in possesion of drugs, or was a DUI, or was speeding excessively. Let's say, he was suspected of felony firearms charges; and the cop who pulls him over gets creamed by a passing 18 wheeler.

Would that be willful enough to make him responsible?

No, because he complied with the officer's request to pull over, and the cop getting creamed by the 180-wheeler is a separate event.  That's a very different case from the officer's death or injury being caused by fleeing from his pursuit.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Soup DeVille

Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 07:29:15 PM
No, because he complied with the officer's request to pull over, and the cop getting creamed by the 180-wheeler is a separate event.  That's a very different case from the officer's death or injury being caused by fleeing from his pursuit.

The officer's death was caused by getting into a vehicular accident while attempting to make an arrest. In neither case did the suspect attempt to physically harm the officer, but in both cases the suspects' actions led to a dangerous situation in which an officer was harmed.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

dazzleman

We're going to have to agree to disagree.  The two situations are not comparable.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Soup DeVille

Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 07:46:33 PM
We're going to have to agree to disagree.  The two situations are not comparable.

OK, try another one.

An 18 year old kid makes a prank call to 911, claiming a home invasion is underway at a friend's house. Rushing to the scene, an officer is killed when his cruiser strikes a deer.

Is the prank caller culpable for manslaughter?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

dazzleman

That's a harder one. The prank caller should be subject to serious charges, but I'm not sure manslaughter is appropriate in that case.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Soup DeVille

Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 07:55:23 PM
That's a harder one. The prank caller should be subject to serious charges, but I'm not sure manslaughter is appropriate in that case.

Should the prank caller be subject to more serious charges because an officer is harmed or no?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Cookie Monster

Quote from: MX793 on December 19, 2008, 06:57:16 PM
Since we're talking about police pursuits and who should be at fault if someone is injured or killed, what are all your takes on this one.

A couple of years ago, a NY State Trooper was killed in a crash while pursuing a speeding motorcycle.  The officer was driving along when a bike in the oncoming lane blew by him.  He turned his Chevy Tahoe around, radioed in that he was in pursuit, and took off after the bike at high speed.  A few miles later the officer lost control of his SUV in a bend, struck a tree and was killed.

The cyclist said he gunned it when he saw the Trooper in hopes of getting away without getting ticketed (I assume figuring that the officer wouldn't bother trying to catch him if he was going fast enough).  He claimed he wasn't aware that the Trooper had attempted to actually pursue him or that the officer had crashed during said attempted pursuit until he heard about the accident on the evening news after getting home.

Charges against the cyclist included manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.  He was found guilty on the homicide charge and sentenced to 7 years.
He should've only been charged with fleeing from the police, not the manslaughter.

If the cyclist gunned it past the officer, he was probably going really fast, and by the time the officer stops, makes a u-turn and gets going again, the cyclist is long gone, and wouldn't be able to the see the officer in his rear view mirrors, so he probably just thought he lost the cop.

It was the cop's fault for not being able to drive properly and crashing. Seems like they just pinned it to this guy for no reason. :rolleyes: Shows that the cop wasn't very smart because he tried to pursue the cyclist after he's long gone.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: thecarnut on December 19, 2008, 08:42:19 PM
He should've only been charged with fleeing from the police, not the manslaughter.

If the cyclist gunned it past the officer, he was probably going really fast, and by the time the officer stops, makes a u-turn and gets going again, the cyclist is long gone, and wouldn't be able to the see the officer in his rear view mirrors, so he probably just thought he lost the cop.

It was the cop's fault for not being able to drive properly and crashing. Seems like they just pinned it to this guy for no reason. :rolleyes: Shows that the cop wasn't very smart because he tried to pursue the cyclist after he's long gone.
This is the way I feel too,but we all know the end result of F&E. Anytime a LEO is injured/killed your gonna get the book thrown at you.
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

dazzleman

Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 19, 2008, 07:56:44 PM
Should the prank caller be subject to more serious charges because an officer is harmed or no?

I don't know.  I don't see that as the same thing as deliberately fleeing from an officer who's trying to pull you over, and causing injury or death in the process.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

MX793

Quote from: dazzleman on December 20, 2008, 07:14:15 AM
I don't know.  I don't see that as the same thing as deliberately fleeing from an officer who's trying to pull you over, and causing injury or death in the process.

How about this:

Someone who is speeding blows by a speed trap.  The officer hits the lights and pulls out onto the highway to catch the speeder but fails to check for other traffic and is struck by another car and killed.

Is the speeder at fault for the officer's death?
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

dazzleman

Quote from: MX793 on December 20, 2008, 08:09:36 AM
How about this:

Someone who is speeding blows by a speed trap.  The officer hits the lights and pulls out onto the highway to catch the speeder but fails to check for other traffic and is struck by another car and killed.

Is the speeder at fault for the officer's death?

No.  What makes the speeder at fault for the officer's death is the act of evading, not the original violation itself.  If he's just speeding but not deliberately evading, and the officer hasn't gotten to the point of signaling that he needs to pull over, then he's not responsible for the death.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

MX793

Quote from: dazzleman on December 20, 2008, 07:14:15 AM
I don't know.  I don't see that as the same thing as deliberately fleeing from an officer who's trying to pull you over, and causing injury or death in the process.

Instead it was someone who deliberately dispatched emergency personally with an illegal prank phone call.  In both cases, a deliberate illegal act resulted in the death of an officer.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: dazzleman on December 20, 2008, 08:11:35 AM
No.  What makes the speeder at fault for the officer's death is the act of evading, not the original violation itself.  If he's just speeding but not deliberately evading, and the officer hasn't gotten to the point of signaling that he needs to pull over, then he's not responsible for the death.

OK, so now add that the speeder admitted that when he saw the patrol car on the median, he gunned it in hopes of getting to the next exit and evading.  It's otherwise the exact same scenario.  Officer pulls out onto the road, fails to check for traffic, and is struck and killed.  So now the speeder is guilty of killing the officer?
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5