?Demotorization? of youth plaguing Japanese auto sales

[Tave]

You need to move from the sticks

There are many major US cities which lack efficient public transport. LA comes to mind...

Here in the land of the free, our cities were often built up after the advent of the car, rather than having been around for centuries before it. Our living zones were thus often set up with driving in mind. In a country smaller than some of our states, it's easy to have end to end mass transit. It's much harder (and less efficient) in a nation this large and spread out, and do it in such a way that it caters to the freedom of doing things on your own schedule.

[L. ed foote]

There are many major US cities which lack efficient public transport. LA comes to mind...

LA had an efficient system in place.

[Tave]

LA had an efficient system in place.

My mistake, I had forgotten.

How about Denver, Pheonix, San Diego, or Las Vegas?

[ChrisV]

Maybe not... 

I'd rather sit comfortably in my car instead of being scrunched up against a bunch of other people for an hour.

But, MY commute is 15 minutes on backroads with no traffic.

[L. ed foote]

My mistake, I had forgotten.

How about Denver, Pheonix, San Diego, or Las Vegas?

I would suspect they had mass transit options in place as well.  I know San Diego did.

[SVT32V]

yeah, the commute in Japan is the best...



I prefer my commute.

Those two fellows have a job when it gets more crowded, theay are called train pushers, nothing like being packed into a train tighter than sardines. 


Unless of course you are accidentally placed on the female only car that came about from the rampant groping and other deviant behavior.


Cant blame a Hentai/pervert fellow for trying.

[93JC]

My mistake, I had forgotten.

How about Denver, Pheonix, San Diego, or Las Vegas?

Denver has "TheRide" LRT system, San Diego's Trolley opened in the early '80s, Las Vegas has a monorail and Phoenix opened their LRT system last Saturday.

[Tave]

It's been awhile since I visited San Diego. What kind of system did it have?


Notice I said, "efficient systems." Both Denver and Pheonix have light rail, but those options are severly limited. They can take you to the ballpark for a game, or downtown to shop, but they can't take you to work in the morning. Both of them, as well as Las Vegas, also have bus systems, but those are almost completely worthless. I lived 5-10 minutes away from Scottsdale Community College, but when my car was in the shop for a week, it was an hour on the bus. I figured out that it was quicker to ride a bike than use the Metro service. I hear the Las Vegas bus system is worse still, even around the strip.

[Tave]

Denver has "TheRide" LRT system, San Diego's Trolley opened in the early '80s, Las Vegas has a monorail and Phoenix opened their LRT system last Saturday.

My friends live in walking distance of an LRT station in Denver. We use it to go to Rockies or Nuggets games, or to go to bars downtown, but otherwise it's just a hunk of concrete and steel. It's not a full-transit service like Eastern US rail and bus systems.

[Tave]

Also, in both cities, unless you just happen to live close to one of the few lines, you have to drive to one of the stations anyway.

[L. ed foote]

It's been awhile since I visited San Diego. What kind of system did it have?

I was there in 2003, they have a bus and light rail system in place

[GoCougs]

yeah, the commute in Japan is the best...



I prefer my commute.

It is, if your gas is $5/gallon, traffic is as bad as a Manhattan or LA during rush hour, that there are far fewer roads to begin with, the taxes to drive, park, own, maintain, etc., are sky high, and you're already paying 50%+ in come tax to fund public transportation...

So, spend even MORE hours "working"? And not get paid for it? THAT'S ignorant.

You really need to learn the definition of the terms you use.

Ever been to Japan, most notably the larger cities such as Kobe, Osaka, or Tokyo?

It is you who are begging for a Webster-esque smack-down.

[GoCougs]

Those two fellows have a job when it gets more crowded, theay are called train pushers, nothing like being packed into a train tighter than sardines. 

I hope you don't think that they're actually pushing people - they're assisting people on and off the train and make sure that nothing is blocking the doors, as the trains MUST run on schedule in Japan.

Unless of course you are accidentally placed on the female only car that came about from the rampant groping and other deviant behavior.


Cant blame a Hentai/pervert fellow for trying.

LOL - the "women only" train placards don't always have English translation - but being the polite people that they are the women don't say a thing (unlike some militant US femi-Nazi that's sooner stab your eyes out with some knitting needles).

[ChrisV]

It is, if your gas is $5/gallon, traffic is as bad as a Manhattan or LA during rush hour, that there are far fewer roads to begin with, the taxes to drive, park, own, maintain, etc., are sky high, and you're already paying 50%+ in come tax to fund public transportation...

Ever been to Japan, most notably the larger cities such as Kobe, Osaka, or Tokyo?

It is you who are begging for a Webster-esque smack-down.

And once again, you fail to get the point.

The point being THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT SO USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE SHOULD DO HERE IS MISLEADING AT *BEST*.

And saying that their commute is BETTER is also misleading. It's a functional necessity in Japan, and I'D RATHER NOT BE DOING IT THAT WAY.

The trains run on time, but you have to be entirely inconvenienced in order to use them to commute with.

[Rich]

And once again, you fail to get the point.

The point being THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT SO USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE SHOULD DO HERE IS MISLEADING AT *BEST*.

Nobody made the argument that this kind of transportation system is the one we need in the US   

[Tave]

The trains run on time, but you have to be entirely inconvenienced in order to use them to commute with.

HotRodPilot doesn't sound too inconvenienced.

[GoCougs]

Since this thread has taken a diversion into public transportation land, I'll help ChrisV out and offer my thoughts as it pertains to Japan, and why it is for the most part untenable in the US:

1.) The Japanese culture is inherently collective/socialist owing to the nature of its history as an island nature with limited resources and geography, so they unlike many Americans are okay with the herd mentality of public transportation.

2.) In similar vein as (1) but on a more practical level, the highway and road network isn't nearly what it is in the US. There are fewer miles of road per person, the taxes to drive and own a car are much, much higher, owing to the history of the populace living predominantly in urban areas.

3.) The Japanese are extremely clean. Public transportation in the US is disgusting - bums, trash, the ever-present smell of BO and whiz - you virtually see none of that in Japanese public transportation. It is not unpleasant to use public transportation in Japan, and it is not otherwise seen as lower class or demeaning. Young school kids to CEOs use public transportation in Japan.

4.) The Japanese are inherently much more orderly, efficient and active. One of the principles in an effective transportation are people getting in and out of the vehicles and stations. When in the US has anyone sees a 1,000 people of all ages walking/jogging on an escalator already moving? Never. In Japan, people hustle.

5.) Mainly owing to (1) above, the Japanese are comfortable with extremely high taxes and strong central government needed to implement wide-scale public transportation.

Owing to these five points, mass transportation in the US on an even moderately limited scale is utterly DOA . Believe me, I've had my fill with Euro-wannabees who worship public transportation and its underpinnings (extremely high taxes and strong central government), but it just doesn't wash. In a few cities such as NYC, it is a necessity, but it's terrible - even with sky-high taxes of Manhattan the subways are filthy and decrepit.

Here in Seattle, second only to San Francisco in its Euro-wannabee-ness, a push for widespread public transportation has been underway for some time. The irony is of course that like most big cities Seattle has a fairly well-developed freeway system, and for decades has used electric buses and bus- and HOV-specific lanes just fine. But this does not toe the Euro line - you can't be European unless there is a completely unsustainable, top-end light rail system.

[GoCougs]

And once again, you fail to get the point.

The point being THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT SO USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE SHOULD DO HERE IS MISLEADING AT *BEST*.

And saying that their commute is BETTER is also misleading. It's a functional necessity in Japan, and I'D RATHER NOT BE DOING IT THAT WAY.

The trains run on time, but you have to be entirely inconvenienced in order to use them to commute with.

I did not claim what we should anything of what should or shouldn't be used in the US, or that their commute is "better." I merely addressed your poorly-informed standalone critique of the Japanese public transportation.

Again, you're making an incomplete judgment, as IMO you aren't familiar with the culture, their public transporation nor the situation with transportation in Japan. It is a convenience for most Japanese to use public transportation counter to your claim.

[SVT32V]

I hope you don't think that they're actually pushing people - they're assisting people on and off the train and make sure that nothing is blocking the doors, as the trains MUST run on schedule in Japan.

Actually, my wife is Japanese (from Kyoto), I love the place and I must say I have rather enjoyed the people-watching aspect of the rush-hour.

The train pushers do push people into the trains, it is not so nice as you paited the picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0A9-oUoMug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJpbbDtvbSQ

LOL - the "women only" train placards don't always have English translation - but being the polite people that they are the women don't say a thing (unlike some militant US femi-Nazi that's sooner stab your eyes out with some knitting needles).

Tax rates in Japan are not significantly higher than the US, in fact some studies indicate that including corporate taxes, the overall burden is less.

[2o6]

And once again, you fail to get the point.

The point being THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT SO USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE SHOULD DO HERE IS MISLEADING AT *BEST*.

And saying that their commute is BETTER is also misleading. It's a functional necessity in Japan, and I'D RATHER NOT BE DOING IT THAT WAY.

The trains run on time, but you have to be entirely inconvenienced in order to use them to commute with.

It's not like this 24-7. Maybe 15 minutes each morning it's like this.

[L. ed foote]

In a few cities such as NYC, it is a necessity, but it's terrible - even with sky-high taxes of Manhattan the subways are filthy and decrepit.

You talking about the trains, tunnels, or sandwich shops?

[GoCougs]

Tax rates in Japan are not significantly higher than the US, in fact some studies indicate that including corporate taxes, the overall burden is less.

Wow - I thought I'd seen it packed in Osaka but you're right, I didn't have the complete picture.

As to taxes, I'd have to disagree; Japan's outlay demands it - nationalized healthcare and other cradle-to-grave programs, the world's most developed public transportation system, and otherwise Japan takes hit for being the highest industrial-taxed nation (even more so than Europe) on an individual level.

[GoCougs]

You talking about the trains, tunnels, or sandwich shops?

The subways. The cleanest I've seen in the US was Atlanta's, but it's pretty relatively new, so it's time will come...

[Tave]

DC subways were pretty good last time I was there, a little over 10 years ago.

[L. ed foote]

The subways. The cleanest I've seen in the US was Atlanta's, but it's pretty relatively new, so it's time will come...

NYC Subway

[93JC]

But this does not toe the Euro line - you can't be European unless there is a completely unsustainable, top-end light rail system.

Aren't freeway systems inherently unsustainable? After all, a city like Seattle will spend hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars annually just to maintain the road system.

Calgary's LRT system is perfectly sustainable; it runs a profit, believe it or not. But then again people actually use the C-Train.

[hotrodalex]

DC subways were pretty good last time I was there, a little over 10 years ago.

I was there summer of 2007 (I think it was '07) and it looked very clean.

[Madman]

When I lived in Chicago, I used the CTA on a daily basis.  I wasn't about to fight urban traffic and pay exorbitant parking rates just so I wouldn't have to rub elbows with people I didn't know.  And you know what?  It worked pretty well.  The trains were clean, ran on time and got me to where I needed to go.

Just goes to prove public transport can work in America if it's run properly.


Cheers,
Madman of the People

[Tave]

Chicago is another city which saw extensive development and migration before the invention of the ICE.

[Speed_Racer]

When I lived in Chicago, I used the CTA on a daily basis.  I wasn't about to fight urban traffic and pay exorbitant parking rates just so I wouldn't have to rub elbows with people I didn't know.  And you know what?  It worked pretty well.  The trains were clean, ran on time and got me to where I needed to go.

Just goes to prove public transport can work in America if it's run properly.


Cheers,
Madman of the People

I also wonder if the general public needs to understand that using public transport will be different than driving a car.

When I was in Buenos Aires, I used public transportation about 95% of the time (buses, taxis, and above ground trains). For a short time, I had access to a car as well. What I noticed is that with a car:
- Positives: A/C, Not crowded with stranger, you go on your own schedule, and you could arrive right at your destination.
- Negatives: Traffic, accidents were always a worry, parking fees, the random police "fine", and car robbery

Public transport:
- Positives: wicked cheap to use, not driving = less stress, time to read or do something while the driver drives, sometimes quicker from point a to b
- Negatives: sometimes packed, hot, weird smells, breakdowns or not on schedule, sometimes you couldn't get "right to the doorstep"

All in all, I preferred public transport, but recognized that I was giving some control and comfort in exchange for saving some money and stress. I sometimes see that we in the US want to have our cake and eat it too.