Do you believe in man-made global warming?

[Onslaught]

Perhaps not, but certainly more so than ants, polar bears or pseudo naturalist religion.

I don't know if I agree. We have lots more humans then Polar Bears. We could stand to lose some humans.
I'll do my part by not contributing to the human problem by not reproducing.

[Rupert]

I put less value on people than on the natural world, actually.

[Onslaught]

I put less value on people than on the natural world, actually.

The line in the Matrix about us being a Virus is kind of true in my book. I'm not some nut job tree fucker or anything. But animals don't have anyway of fighting for them self's so I feel that someone has to do it for them. And I grew up in the country and have seen first hand what people do to nature and how everything gets fucked up when we move in.
Some people don't give a shit about anything other than their own asses. I think you can try to find a compromise that will try and help out the overall world.


And to be honest I don't feel human life is as important as most people do. We're just really lucky animals in the end.

[Tave]

Duly noted. We'll be sure to remember that when we're all starving on the lifeboat and trying to decide who to eat.

[Onslaught]

Duly noted. We'll be sure to remember that when we're all starving on the lifeboat and trying to decide who to eat.

Not much meat on me. And I'm getting old so it wouldn't be tender. I'd use me for bait to see if you could catch something better.
That is if we don't net all the fish out of the sea before then. 

[GoCougs]

Jeez, guys. What a depressing world view. How do you get up in the morning?

[Onslaught]

Jeez, guys. What a depressing world view. How do you get up in the morning?

I don't hate humanity. I just think we're full of our self's and not as smart or important as we seem to think we are.

Oh, and with an alarm clock.

[Tave]

I put less value on people than on the natural world, actually.

So what stops you from cashing in your chips?

[Soup DeVille]

Then we are not natural.

We aren't?

So, are we supernatural, artificial, or imaginary?

[Soup DeVille]

Duly noted. We'll be sure to remember that when we're all starving on the lifeboat and trying to decide who to eat.

[Rupert]

We aren't?

So, are we supernatural, artificial, or imaginary?

I was being a bit hyperbolic. Humans are natural. We evolved. What we do is largely artificial.

[Soup DeVille]

I was being a bit hyperbolic. Humans are natural. We evolved. What we do is largely artificial.

If we're natural, then doesn't it follow that everything we do is also natural?

[Onslaught]

If we're natural, then doesn't it follow that everything we do is also natural?

how about some of the stuff we do is naturally stupid?

[Soup DeVille]

how about some of the stuff we do is naturally stupid?

Sure. Lemmings are stupid, aren't they?

[Onslaught]

Sure. Lemmings are stupid, aren't they?

I don't know. Perhaps they know something I don't.

[280Z Turbo]

Sure. Lemmings are stupid, aren't they?

Not really.

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp

[Onslaught]

Not really.

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp

Darn, shame on Mickey Mouse

[Soup DeVille]

Not really.

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp

OK, got me, but damn, this: "A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found that the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but in fact were launched off the cliff using a turntable.[11]"

is awesome.

[Rupert]

If we're natural, then doesn't it follow that everything we do is also natural?

No.

[Soup DeVille]

No.

Well thought out response.

[NomisR]

OK, got me, but damn, this: "A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found that the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but in fact were launched off the cliff using a turntable.[11]"

is awesome.

Now that's a cool job!  Catapults would've been even better.

[Byteme]

OK, got me, but damn, this: "A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found that the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but in fact were launched off the cliff using a turntable.[11]"

is awesome.

Reminds me of.................

[GoCougs]

Well thought out response.

So in that "no" mindset, we have to ask it, Where does naturalism end?

Humans hunting buffalo by scaring herds off cliffs? With spears? With bow-n-arrow? With flintlocks? With modern cartridge rifles?

Humans building homes out of caves? Out of tipis? Out of thatch-covered wood frames? Out of stone and mud brick? Out of processes wood and composite shingle?

Hmmm...

[NomisR]

So in that "no" mindset, we have to ask it, Where does naturalism end?

Humans hunting buffalo by scaring herds off cliffs? With spears? With bow-n-arrow? With flintlocks? With modern cartridge rifles?

Humans building homes out of caves? Out of tipis? Out of thatch-covered wood frames? Out of stone and mud brick? Out of processes wood and composite shingle?

Hmmm...

Once tools are involved, it's no longer natural.  That's why we have to live in trees and wlak around naked.  We can't wear fur or any type of clothing because it's unnatural.  And we have to bite off the heads of the prays or forager, otherwise, we're not of the nature.

Why else do you think the greenies hate technology... they want everyone to live like animals of course. 

[GoCougs]

Once tools are involved, it's no longer natural.  That's why we have to live in trees and wlak around naked.  We can't wear fur or any type of clothing because it's unnatural.  And we have to bite off the heads of the prays or forager, otherwise, we're not of the nature.

Why else do you think the greenies hate technology... they want everyone to live like animals of course. 

Exactly, and therein lies the naturalists' problem.

Primates use sticks to fish ants out of anthills.

Otters use rocks to crush seashells.

Elephants use branches to swap away flies.

[NomisR]

Exactly, and therein lies the naturalists' problem.

Primates use sticks to fish ants out of anthills.

Otters use rocks to crush seashells.

Elephants use branches to swap away flies.

But wait.. that's natural because they're all a part of nature.. what we do isn't natural anymore because we're man, and it would be man-made! 

[GoCougs]

Is iron not a part of nature? Man only discovered iron after coming upon naturally smelted iron ore. Man simply took a queue from mother nature to make iron in volume - iron ore is natural, fire is natural, man beating on hot iron with rocks is as natural as an otter smashing seashells with a rock.

So what is the fundamental premise that allows modern man to do with "nature" what animals cannot. Animals use stones, but could animals build the Great Pyramids? Animals use sticks, but could animals build a thatch hut?

They've got themselves in quite a quandary - "unnatural" is the presence of cognitive thought.

[Rupert]

Well thought out response.

It was, just not expounded.

[Rupert]

So in that "no" mindset, we have to ask it, Where does naturalism end?

Humans hunting buffalo by scaring herds off cliffs? With spears? With bow-n-arrow? With flintlocks? With modern cartridge rifles?

Humans building homes out of caves? Out of tipis? Out of thatch-covered wood frames? Out of stone and mud brick? Out of processes wood and composite shingle?

Hmmm...

There's a big 'ole gray area, but on either side it's black and white. Our pollution is distinctly on the unnatural side. Chimps fishing termites out of holes is on the natural side of the gray area, and humans building grass huts and flint knapping is on the unnatural side. IMO, it's more of a continuum than a line.

[GoCougs]

There's a big 'ole gray area, but on either side it's black and white. Our pollution is distinctly on the unnatural side. Chimps fishing termites out of holes is on the natural side of the gray area, and humans building grass huts and flint knapping is on the unnatural side. IMO, it's more of a continuum than a line.

So what if we had 6,000,000 humans fishing termites out of holes, beating seashells with rocks, and building nests in trees?

Is this unnatural; and would we not significantly alter the environment if we lived like modern primates?