Chrysler puts a bullet in the PT Cruiser

[2o6]

Again, you're telling me that it's OK for someone to post an opinion, as long as it isn't ME posting an opinion? That's hypocritical.

And again, why is everyone EXCEPT me allowed to have a negative opinion of anything? It's quite ok for anyone to post any negative and insulting opinion, and they are supported and cheered on, but if I do it in response, all fucking hell breaks loose as to how this big bad meany isn't letting the poor innocent children have their opinion.

Because you're putting other people down of their opinions.



you're right. 'cause unfounded negative opinion and insulting cars because they aren't your favorite is exactly what Carspin is all about.

Glad to see what you support.

They don't have to like something, and you cannot force that upon them. Your high and mighty attitude that you've experienced the entire automotive world and therefore your opinion is best is quite annoying.

[Byteme]

Because every Right comes with a Responsibility. Your Right to an opinion means a Responsibility to base that opinion on being well informed. if you're not well informed, then stating that opinion in a public place gives people the Right to call that opinion into question (the responsibility being that actual knowledge be preserved). It seems that lately, it's more important to uphold the right to state any damn fool opinion that pops into your head, than it is to uphold the right to call that opinion into question.

FWIW, there's opinion, informed opinion and there is fact.  Opinions are by nature subjective and therefore subject to multiple interpertations.

No one is arguing that if you disagree with someone's opinion you have the right to question it.  

That doesn't mean, however the person first stating their opinion doesn't have the right to their opinion nor does that person have any social or legal responsibility to validate their opinion.  The listener, on the other hand, has the responsibility to decide if the opinion is valid or not.  

And just as I would defend LVR's right, your right or anybody else's right to offer any opinion, uninformed or not, I would just as vigorously defend anyone's right to question those opinions.

[SVT666]

There's a reason it's called "adult language."

And until you show that you can use more than one brain cell at a time, I'll reiterate: Fuck you.

Keep digging your hole Chris.  

FYI, I don't have to like every car.  I don't have to own or work on a car to know if I like the styling of it or not.  A sports car can have a fixed roof according to the FIA.  Automatics are not as fun as manuals.  Opinions, right or wrong, is just that...an opinion, and if it's based on bad info, then correct that info for the person to form a new opinion...don't call him names and swear at him.

Can a mod step up here and do something about him?

[ifcar]

Everybody behave.

[GoCougs]

I had one for a rental for a time, and that it was really good for what it was - it's an econo car with a bit of retro styling pizazz. The only area that needed work was the engine; it was rough, kinda loud, and thirsty.

Someone does bring up a very good point about the retro design - how do you update it? Go even more retro? Abandon it completely?

The Mustang, Camaro and Challenger will all have this problem - each represents the pinnacle of the nameplate design (or in the case of the Challenger, the only design).

[ChrisV]

Because you're putting other people down of their opinions.

I'm responding to an insult with an insult. You don't want to be insulted, don't be insulting to start with.

But Tave's right. This place will definitely rise a few notches when it's simply a circle jerk about what cars you all hate. It'll be great. You can even advertise it that way. Since negative opinions on things are so valuable to you, maybe you'll be able to attract a bunch of people like Les Vipers here...

[ifcar]

Someone does bring up a very good point about the retro design - how do you update it? Go even more retro? Abandon it completely?

The Mustang, Camaro and Challenger will all have this problem - each represents the pinnacle of the nameplate design (or in the case of the Challenger, the only design).

Different retro. There are lots of design cues in history that could be applied to the basic idea of a compact station wagon and called "PT Cruiser."

[Tave]

Or is it the hypocrite in you saying it's ok to express any negative opinion you want but not ok for me to respond back in kind?

Of course not. I just suggest that you use some tact. You admitted earlier that you never speak to people like this in real life. No one has shown you the blatant disrespect you say you receive on other forums, so don't project your hostility at those people onto us.

[ChrisV]

FYI, I don't have to like every car.

Never sad you or anyone did. What part of that are you constantly missing? Do I have to type in all caps for you to be able to read it? I only respond when people use retarded and baseless reasons to INSULT a car. Not when they merely like something else better.

I don't have to own or work on a car to know if I like the styling of it or not.  A sports car can have a fixed roof according to the FIA.  Automatics are not as fun as manuals.  Opinions, right or wrong, is just that...an opinion, and if it's based on bad info, then correct that info for the person to form a new opinion...don't call him names and swear at him.

I've done that many times (in fact, for the first 6-7 years on the internet, that was the only way I responded) and all I get for it is your form of response: "I don't care what the facts are my minds made up. I don't care what experience anyone has, I don't need experience to form and hold tightly to an opinion."

So I no longer play nice. If you want to go out and be insulting, I respond in kind on the first try, rather on the 5th or 10th. If it makes you mad, so be it. Maybe you'll stop being insulting to start with.

[Tave]

But Tave's right. This place will definitely rise a few notches when it's simply a circle jerk about what cars you all hate.

First of all, I'm a little confused.

Second of all, most of the respondants in this thread say they LIKE the PT Cruiser, and they say that it didn't get the repect it deserved.

[Byteme]

Again, you're telling me that it's OK for someone to post an opinion, as long as it isn't ME posting an opinion? That's hypocritical.

And again, why is everyone EXCEPT me allowed to have a negative opinion of anything? It's quite ok for anyone to post any negative and insulting opinion, and they are supported and cheered on, but if I do it in response, all fucking hell breaks loose as to how this big bad meany isn't letting the poor innocent children have their opinion.

That's the real problem isn't it.  You want to play the big bad meany, the guy with all the information (largly opinions as well), the all knowing, all seeing vehicle expert and the rest of us are just a bunch of juveniles, awaiting your pronouncements from on high so we can ll go "ow-ah" and be amazed that any one individual could be so knowledgable.  Someone else has an opinion you don't like or agree with and they are uninformed.  

Sorry, but a foul mouth throwing insults doesn't really cut it.  (yeah, I know I used my yearly allotment of four leter words in my posts, but not as insults thrown at another list member.)

[GoCougs]

Because every Right comes with a Responsibility. Your Right to an opinion means a Responsibility to base that opinion on being well informed. if you're not well informed, then stating that opinion in a public place gives people the Right to call that opinion into question (the responsibility being that actual knowledge be preserved). It seems that lately, it's more important to uphold the right to state any damn fool opinion that pops into your head, than it is to uphold the right to call that opinion into question.

False. There is no such responsibility.

YOU want to make it such because you're desperate to come up with a high-brow reason to cut someone's opinion down.

Pushrod engines are outdated. Corvette leaf springs are antiquated legacy throwbacks. PT Cruiser is a chick's car.

Don't fight it, embrace it. It's the spice of teh Internets.

[ChrisV]

Of course not. I just suggest that you use some tact. You admitted earlier that you never speak to people like this in real life. No one has shown you the blatant disrespect you say you receive on other forums, so don't project your hostility at those people onto us.

BWAHAHAHAHA. If no one here has to use tact when making comments, why should I?

[2o6]

Different retro. There are lots of design cues in history that could be applied to the basic idea of a compact station wagon and called "PT Cruiser."

Exactly. They could have used this:


Chrysler Akino Concept



Chrysler California Cruiser


Dodge Kahuna


Chrysler Java

[2o6]

That's the real problem isn't it.  You want to play the big bad meany, the guy with all the information (largly opinions as well), the all knowing, all seeing vehicle expert and the rest of us are just a bunch of juveniles, awaiting your pronouncements from on high so we can ll go "ow-ah" and be amazed that any one individual could be so knowledgable.  Someone else has an opinion you don't like or agree with and they are uninformed.  

Sorry, but a foul mouth throwing insults doesn't really cut it.  (yeah, I know I used my yearly allotment of four leter words in my posts, but not as insults thrown at another list member.)

Thank you.

[GoCougs]

Exactly. They could have used this:

Not really, two aren't related, one is a 2-door copy. The only one that has hope is the Kahuna.

[Tave]

BWAHAHAHAHA. If no one here has to use tact when making comments, why should I?

People in this thread are continuing to be very level-headed while you hurl profanity at them. I'm sorry if you cannot see that.

[dazzleman]

Actually, it was the comment that it was a chick car that doesn't drive very well. I've owned and driven cars that make Dazzle's sedan feel like a wallowy pig, and I don't say the PT OR Dazzle's car drives bad. Both comments together show both a lack of knowledge of the subject AND a desire to be insulting about it (because he took the time to type out the comment on a public forum)

If he had said something like, "too bad, but they never were my kind of car," none of this would have happened. But no one knows how to do that sort of thing anymore.

But, it's been proven time and again that what's desired here, what's accepted here, and what's covered for here is whatever baseless negative opinion that can be made.

What the hell. Instead of battling against ignorance and insulting commentary, I'll just join in and see what it's like to be part of the "hip crowd" here. I'll have to make up reasons to insult things other people might like, but that' never been a problem for many of you guys, so I should be able to do it, too.

I think you need to figure out what's really bothering you.  And I can tell you with great certainty, it isn't my stupid little comment about the PT Cruiser (which was not meant to be insulting to anybody, BTW).

[ChrisV]

That's the real problem isn't it.  You want to play the big bad meany, the guy with all the information (largly opinions as well), the all knowing, all seeing vehicle expert and the rest of us are just a bunch of juveniles, awaiting your pronouncements from on high so we can ll go "ow-ah" and be amazed that any one individual could be so knowledgable.  Someone else has an opinion you don't like or agree with and they are uninformed.  

Sorry, but a foul mouth throwing insults doesn't really cut it.  (yeah, I know I used my yearly allotment of four leter words in my posts, but not as insults thrown at another list member.)

I may have used the F bomb a few times in this thread, but overall, I rarely use it here.

As for the rest? Yeah. You nailed it. How insightful. In fact, I'm completely lying about my experience. I mean, why would anyone actually like cars enough to spend their lives actually TRYING to learn things about them and experience such a wide variety? No one would. Real people hate anything outside a narrow band of favorites. In fact, to have real experience would be worthless in this modern world.

No, you got it entirely. In fact, I only got on the internet to go find a few places where people say they were interested in cars JUST to tell them they were stupid. There would be no reason for me to look around the world to see if there was a community of people that actually liked cars. I would actually have to like cars a lot and have experience in a lot of different genres to want to do that, and as we've already determined, no one could actually possess those attributes.

So, as I said earlier in the thread, I'm going to join your club here and run around hating on cars with reckless abandon, and arguing with anyone who might have more experience with any car than I (since it's been determined that not only do I not really have any experience, having experience is a bad thing. Wouldn't want to be marked down as a know it all just for mentioning you have experience). I'm hoping it'll be as fun as you all make it out to be.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I don't think chrysler would want us to fight over this.

We should be dancing and celebrating its life and not fighting over its death.

Come on, group hug. Slide on in everybody, you too chris.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

"I'm going to join your club"

"I'm hoping it'll be as fun as you all make it out to be."

Welcome to the club, it's customary for the new people to bring cookies.

I like M&M cookies. 

See you at the first meeting.

[ChrisV]

I think you need to figure out what's really bothering you.  And I can tell you with great certainty, it isn't my stupid little comment about the PT Cruiser (which was not meant to be insulting to anybody, BTW).

Actually yes, it was. I'm to the tipping point on that subject, having heard it and calmly responded or ignored it tens of thousands of times in the past. It no longer gets brushed off.

Well, up to now. Now I'm going to join the club. I'm going to ignore any actual experience I may have, and just insult cars and their owners willy nilly. Apparently, it's the recommended and supported thing to do on a car forum.

[2o6]

"I'm going to join your club"

"I'm hoping it'll be as fun as you all make it out to be."

Welcome to the club, it's customary for the new people to bring cookies.

I like M&M cookies. :)

See you at the first meeting.

My club is slowly dwindling. The "we like crappy cars" club is down to three members, NACar, Teuton and CJ.

Actually yes, it was. I'm to the tipping point on that subject, having heard it and calmly responded or ignored it tens of thousands of times in the past. It no longer gets brushed off.

Well, up to now. Now I'm going to join the club. I'm going to ignore any actual experience I may have, and just insult cars and their owners willy nilly. Apparently, it's the recommended and supported thing to do on a car forum.

You're quite the hypocrite.

[ChrisV]

"I'm going to join your club"

"I'm hoping it'll be as fun as you all make it out to be."

Welcome to the club, it's customary for the new people to bring cookies.

I like M&M cookies. 

See you at the first meeting.

I HATE M&M cookies. There's no reason to make them.

You're right, this IS fun!

When's the next meeting?

[BimmerM3]

Fuck man, he apologized. What more do you want?

[ChrisV]

People in this thread are continuing to be very level-headed while you hurl profanity at them. I'm sorry if you cannot see that.

How many people got profanity "hurled at them?"

[dazzleman]

Actually yes, it was. I'm to the tipping point on that subject, having heard it and calmly responded or ignored it tens of thousands of times in the past. It no longer gets brushed off.

Well, up to now. Now I'm going to join the club. I'm going to ignore any actual experience I may have, and just insult cars and their owners willy nilly. Apparently, it's the recommended and supported thing to do on a car forum.

A truly open-minded person would never consider the term 'chick car' to be an insult. Why is it an insult to point out the fact that more women than men favor a particular car, and how is that insulting to any particular man who likes that car?

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Lets just ban chris and get it over with.

[Soup DeVille]

Exactly. They could have used this:


Chrysler Akino Concept



Chrysler California Cruiser


Dodge Kahuna


Chrysler Java

I don't see any of those as having any really large acceptance. The whole problem with retro-modern look cars is that peole really have a very narrow idea of what the archetypal "old" car looked like, and that's really what I see the PT as: as playing off of people's perception of some platonically idealized archetype of a prewar station wagon.

I like the look, and the idea in itself, its just not one of the most flexible concepts out there. There is a narrowly defined silhoutte that oce you try to modify, it tends to look awkward, or forced.

[2o6]

Lets just ban chris and get it over with.

That's the last thing this forum needs. I have to agree with chrisV to some extent, there isn't a very diverse bunch here.