Consumer Reports - Perception Surveys (How moronic...)

[cawimmer430]

what about Mercedes vs  Honda safety?

I don't doubt that Honda or Toyota build safe cars, but the real safety innovator was and still is Mercedes-Benz. No other brand has done more for this criteria and they still do. Just a day ago I was in a cafe reading the latest Autobild magazine about the new E-Class in depth. It's literally the safest car in the world - even "safer" than an S-Class. The good news is that PRE-SAFE, which debuted in the S-Class, is now available in the E-Class and will filter down through the entire MB lineup.

From a historical perception point of view, I would expect people to know this. But since most people don't care about history or heritage, they obviously will never know these facts about Mercedes. Hence they make totally stupid comments like Lexus being just or more prestigeous than BMW or Mercedes. 

[ifcar]

So what you're saying is that MB's living on past accomplishments because competing products today are actually safer? I agree.

[cawimmer430]

So what you're saying is that MB's living on past accomplishments because competing products today are actually safer? I agree.

I am saying that MB has done more for this criteria than Toyota or Honda. I am saying that MB has a history, then and now, of producing safe cars.

I've never heard of Toyota or Honda being the benchmark for safety? 

[cawimmer430]

Add to that countless safety innovations.

And all of a sudden Toyota and Honda are perceived as being safer or more safety oriented than MB? Somebody needs to get smacked. Seriously.

[ifcar]

I am saying that MB has done more for this criteria than Toyota or Honda. I am saying that MB has a history, then and now, of producing safe cars.

I've never heard of Toyota or Honda being the benchmark for safety? 

Yet I see the Camry and Accord doing better in crash tests than the E-Class.

[cawimmer430]

Yet I see the Camry and Accord doing better in crash tests than the E-Class.

Source?

[ifcar]

Source?

The Accord is an IIHS Top Safety Pick for its top performance in three crash tests; the E-Class has only "acceptable" side-impact protection.

Accord:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=276

E-Class:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=315


E-Class gets four out of five stars for frontal protection from NHTSA, the other US safety agency. Camry gets five.

E-Class:
http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid=c95df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD

Camry:
http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid=c95df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD


The Accord and Camry aren't even the best among $20,000 sedans, yet they both did better than the E-Class.

[Submariner]

Yet I see the Camry and Accord doing better in crash tests than the E-Class.

In 2005, a report from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety declared the Mercedes E-Class to be the car with the best occupant safety in the U.S.

This debate is getting pointless.  The only thing that can be said definitively is that this poll, like many of CR's polls are worthless. 

[ifcar]

In 2005, a report from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety declared the Mercedes E-Class to be the car with the best occupant safety in the U.S.

Then in 2006 they started doing side-impact crash tests and the picture looked a bit less rosy.

[Submariner]

Then in 2006 they started doing side-impact crash tests and the picture looked a bit less rosy.

Ahhh.

[AltinD]

So what you're saying is that MB's living on past accomplishments because competing products today are actually safer? I agree.

Are you saying that you will suffer less in case of an accident in a Toyota then in a comparable sized Mercedes (or other premium European cars)? Good luck with that.

[ifcar]

Are you saying that you will suffer less in case of an accident in a Toyota then in a comparable sized Mercedes (or other premium European cars)? Good luck with that.

That's what the crash tests indicate, yes. Audi has strong safety ratings, but not MB or BMW.

[the Teuton]

Subaru.

[YO]

Not true... suburas are NOT 5 stars in ALL FIVE categories... only Acura can say that...

Subaru.

[YO]

yes...5 years ago

In 2005, a report from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety declared the Mercedes E-Class to be the car with the best occupant safety in the U.S.

This debate is getting pointless.  The only thing that can be said definitively is that this poll, like many of CR's polls are worthless. 

[ifcar]

Not true... suburas are NOT 5 stars in ALL FIVE categories... only Acura can say that...

Subarus are all IIHS Top Safety Picks, which is the part of your post I quoted.

[YO]

Don't lie... I wrote " 100% X 2 crash tests" in the qoute you highlighted in your post

GO TEAM GO!

Subaru.

[ifcar]

"Also the ENTIRE line up is a BEST PICK by the IIHS... NO manufacture comes close especially as a percentage.."

That's incorrect, as I said. I'm sorry I couldn't correctly translate the gibberish part that followed.

[SVT666]

Hey Wimmer, did you skip my post about all of Ford's safety innovations?  They kind of eclipse any safety innovations M-B has come up with.

[cawimmer430]

Hey Wimmer, did you skip my post about all of Ford's safety innovations?  They kind of eclipse any safety innovations M-B has come up with.

I saw it, and I have to disagree. I am sure Ford contributed their share but MB is still the king in this regard. 


65 Years Ago Today: The Start of Safety Development at Mercedes-Benz

Exactly 65 years ago, the recruitment of the inventive genius B?la Bar?nyi saw the start of systematic passenger car safety development at Mercedes-Benz. The crumple zone, safety steering column, steering wheel impact plate and side impact protection are examples of the pioneering inventions for which this first Mercedes safety engineer was responsible. To this day they provide the very basis for modern automobile technology, and show how closely the development of vehicle safety is linked to the history of Mercedes-Benz. With innovations such as the sandwich concept of the A-Class or the preventive protection system PRE-SAFE, the Stuttgart automobile brand continues to be the pacemaker in this field.

Initially the department for safety development, which was formed on August 1, 1939, only consisted of four employees. It was headed by the Austrian-born engineer B?la Bar?nyi (1907?1997), who had previously been employed by the "Society for Technical Progress" in Berlin and submitted more than 150 patent applications for automobile and vehicle designs during this time.

The cradle of passenger car safety technology was a wooden hut measuring around 100 square metres at the edge of the Mercedes plant in Sindelfingen. Here Bar?nyi and his personnel devoted themselves to improving occupant protection. Just one year after taking up his post, this impassioned engineer attracted attention with his first prototype featuring an "accident-resistant" floor assembly, rigid passenger cell and special side protection. Within a short time this prototype was followed by other trailblazing inventions. "To this day vehicle safety is based on the foundations that B?la Bar?nyi laid", says Dr Rodolfo Sch?neburg, Head of Safety/Vehicle Functions at the Mercedes-Benz Technology Center.

B?la Bar?nyi developed the principle of the crumple zone during the 1940s; it was patented in August 1952 and first entered series production in 1959, in the Mercedes-Benz 220 (W 111). By the time he went into retirement at the end of 1972 this pioneer in passenger car safety had submitted patent applications for more than 2500 inventions.

In subsequent years Mercedes engineers have continued to set standards in the field of vehicle safety with trailblazing new developments such as belt tensioners, the airbag, the anti-lock braking system (ABS), Brake Assist and the Electronic Stability Program (ESP?). Nowadays these systems are standard equipment in all passenger cars bearing the Mercedes star, as well as those of numerous competitors.

Mercedes specialists also showed great creativity and expertise with the patented sandwich concept of the A-Class in 1997. It was on this basis that a compact car with the occupant safety typical of a Mercedes was able to be designed for the first time. For the new A-Class to be launched in autumn 2004, Mercedes-Benz has developed the sandwich concept even further and combined it with the  latest protection systems.


Mercedes-Benz has been conducting crash tests regularly in Sindelfingen, which have served as the launch pad for pioneering work in the field of passenger car safety. Originally, hot-water rockets were used to propel the test cars.

A new era in passenger car safety began with another Mercedes-Benz development in 2002, the preventive occupant protection system PRE-SAFE, which is standard equipment in the S-Class and will also become available for other Mercedes models in future. PRE-SAFE is able to recognise an impending accident in advance and immediately goes into action to prepare both the occupants and the car for an imminent collision, for example by pre-tensioning the seat belts as a precaution.

Even 65 years after the formation of the first department for passenger car safety, innovations such as this underline the leading position of Mercedes-Benz in this important area of automobile technology.


In 1997, the groundbreaking sandwich concept featured in the A-Class made it possible to combine compact dimensions with Mercedes? renowned safety standards for the first time.


Link: http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/news/individual%20news%20articles/x_040727_65yrs_safety-at-merc.htm




Mercedes-Benz Safety Innovations

Have you ever wondered where various features found in your car came from? Chances are they were originally Mercedes-Benz innovations. I suppose this shouldn't be too surprising, as the automobile as we know it could also be considered an innovation created by Mercedes-Benz's predecessors - in 1886, both Carl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler independently, and unknown to each other, developed the first self-propelled, gasoline-powered vehicles to be offered for sale. They were competitors until their two companies merged in 1926.

Mercedes-Benz has not made a large fuss about its innovations, and has licensed them for use by competitors. Here are a few examples:

``Safety cage'' construction with front and rear crumple zones: Possibly the most important innovation in automobile construction from a safety standpoint, this is now used in nearly all cars and trucks. It was was first developed by Mercedes-Benz in 1951. A reinforced structure surrounds the passenger cabin, and the structure of the front and rear parts of the car is designed to deform in a controlled way to lessen impact forces transmitted to that central structure and further protect occupants.

Anti-lock brakes were first used in Mercedes-Benz cars in 1978. They have been standard equipment on all Mercedes-Benz cars since model year 1989. The acronym ``ABS'', coined in 1972, did not originally stand for ``Anti-lock Braking System'' as one might expect, but ``Anti-Blocking System.''

Traction control: Introduced in 1986 to reduce wheelslip in wet or icy conditions.

The first air bags offered in the North American market were in Mercedes-Benzes in 1988.

Stability control: The Electronic Stability Program - ESP - in which electronic controls for the engine, traction control system, and ABS system, augmented by sensors for fore-and-aft and lateral acceleration and deceleration all communicate in order to determine if the car is entering an out-of-control state, and decrease engine power and direct braking force on specific brakes to regain control was a Mercedes-Benz innovation in 1995. Other manufacturers have developed similar systems, but if it says ``ESP'' and is not on a Mercedes, it's licensed from Mercedes.

Brake Assist: Now used by many other manufacturers, this uses sensors in the brake system to determine if the driver intends to stop quickly, and, if that is the situation and the brake pedal is not being pressed hard enough for maximum effect, boosts braking force. The ABS system prevents wheel lockup. It was first used by Mercedes-Benz in the 1997 model year.

Notice how more and more cars have auxiliary turn signals in their outside rear-view mirrors. First used by Mercedes-Benz a few years ago. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Not everything related to automotive safety was a Mercedes-Benz innovation. The three-point safety belt was developed by Volvo. But Mercedes has been using them since 1968, and they have been standard in the front seats since 1973, optional in the rear outboard positions since 1974, and standard in the rear outboard positions since 1979. Use in the rear center position, if applicable, has been since the mid-1990s.


Source: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/03/11/010089.html


This link below lists some other achievements (with a bit of Volvo bias thrown in).


Mercedes Benz Safety - Luxury Features That Protect You

Years ago, you really had one choice when it came to a safe cars - Volvo. Nobody else had the reputation for safety they did. There was even a joke in a Dudley Moore movie that a Volvo ad should say, "We're boxy, but we're safe." But these days, Mercedes-Benz safety is up there with the best...and it has really always been that way.

Mercedes-Benz formed its own department for safety development 65 years ago, headed by Austrian engineer Bela Barenyi. That department became a hotbed of innovation for the carmaker. Here's just a short list of Mercedes-Benz safety innovations that we all pretty much take for granted in modern cars:

    * A safety steering column to protect the driver
    * Crumple zones in various areas of the vehicle (which was in production by 1953)
    * Side impact protection
    * Airbags
    * Anti-lock brakes
    * Seat belt tensioners

Those features demonstrate that Mercedes-Benz is really the source of modern automobile safety. They pioneered over 2,500 car safety inventions.

In 2003, Mercedes introduced the PRE-SAFE system in some of its cars, which took Mercedes safety to another level. The system is designed to sense that an accident is imminent. When it does, the system swings into action to protect the driver and passengers. The simplest example is tightening the seat belts for extra protection, but that's only one step the system takes.

The system is based on the concept that a panic stop, skid or rapid evasive maneuver signals an impending collision. At that point, the PRE-SAFE system prepares the vehicle for impact, and prepares various aspects of the passenger cabin to be a safety cocoon. Seat belts tighten, headrests adjust automatically to help minimize neck injuries, windows and sunroofs close, seat air cushions inflate to keep passengers snugly in place.

The Mercedes safety engineers even help protect kids. Their Automatic Child Seat Recognition (ACSR) system senses when a child safety seat is installed in the front passenger seat, and turns off the airbag.

Mercedes has essentially created a real-life super car that lives up to the science fiction images we have seen on movie screens. The effect is drivers who walk away from accidents remarkably unhurt. In 2005, a report from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety declared the Mercedes E-Class to be the car with the best occupant safety in the U.S.

Mercedes makes a car that is easy to drive. There's no substitute for driver decisions and judgment in avoiding accidents. But what happens when the driver is not at fault? Accidents happen, even when we're driving safely and defensively. When they do, your Mercedes will protect you better than any other car on the road...except maybe for a Volvo.


Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?Mercedes-Benz-Safety---Luxury-Features-That-Protect-You&id=1852137






Furthermore, I have a lot of books about Mercedes-Benz that also highlight other safety innovations. Sure, other brands contributed a fair share to improving the safety standards in automobiles, but MB by far has done the most.

[cawimmer430]

The Accord is an IIHS Top Safety Pick for its top performance in three crash tests; the E-Class has only "acceptable" side-impact protection.

Accord:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=276

E-Class:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=315


E-Class gets four out of five stars for frontal protection from NHTSA, the other US safety agency. Camry gets five.

E-Class:
http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid=c95df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD

Camry:
http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid=c95df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD


The Accord and Camry aren't even the best among $20,000 sedans, yet they both did better than the E-Class.

In Europe the E-Class gets 5/5 stars in its crash test overall score and does very well in other safety criteria.

Furthermore the Camry and Accord you are talking about are NEWER than the W211 E-Class. Heck, maybe Honda or Toyota even studied the W211 E-Class and analyzed its safety systems. They must have (Toyota) because they sure as hell want to make their GS more competitive...

[ifcar]

Whatever works. If Toyota can look at an MB and make it safer, then all power to them, no? The goal of safety isn't to boast about who did it first, it's to sell the safest product.

[YO]

lets live in the now...

2009 TL  5 Stars all 5 tests /Best Pick IIHS
2009 RL  5 Stars all 5 tests / Best Pick IIHS
2009 TSX 5 Stars all 5 tests /#1 in class and Best Pick IIHS
2009 MDX 5 Star in 4 crash tests, 4 star rollover/ #1 in class and Best Pick IIHS
2009 RDX 5 Star in 4 crash tests, 4 star rollover/ Best Pick IIHS

TODAY... RIGHT NOW... ACURA!!!


why the hell they don't advertise this... just doesn't make sense...

"Also the ENTIRE line up is a BEST PICK by the IIHS... NO manufacture comes close especially as a percentage.."

That's incorrect, as I said. I'm sorry I couldn't correctly translate the gibberish part that followed.

[ifcar]

"2009 TL  5 Stars all 5 tests"

Not true.

[Submariner]

Hey Wimmer, did you skip my post about all of Ford's safety innovations?  They kind of eclipse any safety innovations M-B has come up with.

Did you skip mine?  They kinda eclipse everything Ford has done, especially given Ford had nothing to do with the Seat belt, and the airbag was designed by man with no affiliations to Ford and originally marketed to Chrysler. 

[2o6]

    * A safety steering column to protect the driver
    * Crumple zones in various areas of the vehicle (which was in production by 1953)
    * Side impact protection
    * Airbags
    * Anti-lock brakes
    * Seat belt tensioners

Airbags aren't MB's doing.

[Submariner]

Airbags aren't MB's doing.

Indeed. 

[SVT666]

Did you skip mine?  They kinda eclipse everything Ford has done, especially given Ford had nothing to do with the Seat belt, and the airbag was designed by man with no affiliations to Ford and originally marketed to Chrysler. 

Airbags
An American inventor, Dr. Allen S. Breed, invented and developed a key component for automotive use: the ball-in-tube inertial sensor for crash detection. Breed Corporation then marketed this innovation first in 1967 to Chrysler. A similar "Auto-Ceptor" crash-restraint, developed by Eaton, Yale & Towne Inc. for Ford was soon offered as an automatic safety system in the USA, while the Italian Eaton-Livia company offered a variant with localized air cushions.

Airbags for passenger cars were introduced in the United States in the mid-1970s, when seat belt usage rates in the country were quite low. Airbags were marketed as a convenient alternative to seat belts, while offering similar levels of protection to unbelted occupants in a head-on collision.

Ford built an experimental fleet of cars with airbags in 1971, followed by General Motors in 1973 on Chevrolet vehicles.



Seatbelts
The idea for the seat belt, for common use in airplanes, was first created by Seth H. Stoner. He was in the Navy during World War II. He was a Lt. Commander based in Washington and primarily focused on how to reduce the number of accidents and fatalities of pilots taking off and landing on aircraft carriers. He worked with a team of safety engineers and the seat belt was the result of their work. The seat belt did not appear in cars until later in the 1950s.

Edward J. Hock invented the safety belt first used by the Ford Motor Company as standard equipment, while he was on active duty with the military as a flight instructor. In 1955 his idea was accepted by the naval authorities, and Hock was awarded $20.50 for his invention. The original schematic and blueprints shows that he utilized scrap parachute strapping to implement his idea. He was never awarded anything other than the $20.50 award, a letter of recognition, a picture with military "brass", and a newspaper article to his credit.

The three point seat belt (the so-called CIR-Griswold restraint) was patented in 1951 by the Americans Roger W. Griswold and Hugh De Haven.

Saab was the first car manufacturer to introduce seat belts as standard in 1958. After the Saab GT 750 was introduced at the New York motor show in 1958 with safety belts fitted as standard, the practice became commonplace.

Nils Bohlin of Sweden invented a particular kind of three point seat belt for Volvo, who introduced it in 1959 as standard equipment. Bohlin was granted U.S. Patent 3,043,625  for the device.

In 1955 Ford offered for the first time lap belts as an option. In 1956, largely at the insistence of executive Robert McNamara, seat belts were offered for consumer automobiles within the "Lifeguard" safety package. The safety device was met with ridicule by others in the industry, but it caught on with the public. By 1964, Most U.S. automobiles were sold with standard front seat belts; rear seat belts were made standard in 1968.

[Submariner]

Airbags
An American inventor, Dr. Allen S. Breed, invented and developed a key component for automotive use: the ball-in-tube inertial sensor for crash detection. Breed Corporation then marketed this innovation first in 1967 to Chrysler. A similar "Auto-Ceptor" crash-restraint, developed by Eaton, Yale & Towne Inc. for Ford was soon offered as an automatic safety system in the USA, while the Italian Eaton-Livia company offered a variant with localized air cushions.

Airbags for passenger cars were introduced in the United States in the mid-1970s, when seat belt usage rates in the country were quite low. Airbags were marketed as a convenient alternative to seat belts, while offering similar levels of protection to unbelted occupants in a head-on collision.

Ford built an experimental fleet of cars with airbags in 1971, followed by General Motors in 1973 on Chevrolet vehicles.



Seatbelts
The idea for the seat belt, for common use in airplanes, was first created by Seth H. Stoner. He was in the Navy during World War II. He was a Lt. Commander based in Washington and primarily focused on how to reduce the number of accidents and fatalities of pilots taking off and landing on aircraft carriers. He worked with a team of safety engineers and the seat belt was the result of their work. The seat belt did not appear in cars until later in the 1950s.

Edward J. Hock invented the safety belt first used by the Ford Motor Company as standard equipment, while he was on active duty with the military as a flight instructor. In 1955 his idea was accepted by the naval authorities, and Hock was awarded $20.50 for his invention. The original schematic and blueprints shows that he utilized scrap parachute strapping to implement his idea. He was never awarded anything other than the $20.50 award, a letter of recognition, a picture with military "brass", and a newspaper article to his credit.

The three point seat belt (the so-called CIR-Griswold restraint) was patented in 1951 by the Americans Roger W. Griswold and Hugh De Haven.

Saab was the first car manufacturer to introduce seat belts as standard in 1958. After the Saab GT 750 was introduced at the New York motor show in 1958 with safety belts fitted as standard, the practice became commonplace.

Nils Bohlin of Sweden invented a particular kind of three point seat belt for Volvo, who introduced it in 1959 as standard equipment. Bohlin was granted U.S. Patent 3,043,625  for the device.

In 1955 Ford offered for the first time lap belts as an option. In 1956, largely at the insistence of executive Robert McNamara, seat belts were offered for consumer automobiles within the "Lifeguard" safety package. The safety device was met with ridicule by others in the industry, but it caught on with the public. By 1964, Most U.S. automobiles were sold with standard front seat belts; rear seat belts were made standard in 1968.

Uh...that's what I said.  And again, Ford had nothing to do with them. 

[TBR]

How is when and who introduced what even relevant today? The perception that Ford cars are safer seems to be accurate regardless of who was more innovative.