Bad move Obama... very bad.

[SVT666]

Not picking on you for that but I love that reasoning.  It iimplies consumers always choose what's in their best interest, but in the political threads consumer (voters) don't know squat.

Boy, do you ever sound like a socialist: "It implies consumers always choose what's in their best interest...".  So you want to mandate it?

[the Teuton]

Taxing gas different is discrimination, and it's illegal.

[3.0L V6]

Wrong again, consumer choose what they want, though it often isn't in their best interest.

It may be in the consumer's interest to buy a cheaper car without emissions controls (if such a thing were possible to buy), but the consequence of everyone doing that would result in everyone losing in the long run.

A (probably misguided) analogy would be that deficit spending by government makes people happy in the short term (lower taxes, more social programs) but in the large picture having a balanced budget is better for everyone.

[TBR]

It may be in the consumer's interest to buy a cheaper car without emissions controls (if such a thing were possible to buy), but the consequence of everyone doing that would result in everyone losing in the long run.

A (probably misguided) analogy would be that deficit spending by government makes people happy in the short term (lower taxes, more social programs) but in the large picture having a balanced budget is better for everyone.

Not really relevant. People rarely buy what is in their best interest, rather they buy what they want. If they want to take better care of the environment then manufacturers will begin to make cars with lower emissions, even though it actually isn't in the consumer's best interest.

[Tave]

Whether or not emissions regulations are good for the country is a completely seperate issue from whether or not each state should be able to set their own.

[r0tor]

so whats going to be the next step... dirty cars from non-CA-emission states can't enter CA-emission states?


...and I know that PA is pushing to join california... so my autmotive future resides on the liberal whackjobs in california.  Just splendid.

[Eye of the Tiger]

The Suburban driver already pays more.  Not per gallon, but for a tank.  A Suburban costs, for arguments sake, $100 to fill from empty, whereas a Civic costs $25, and they both have to fill their tanks after the same distance travelled.  People seem to forget that gas already costs the Suburban driver more.

I talking more about a manufacturer's ability to build trucks that comply with the new standards. Trucks are heavy, and they have to be to be able to haul and tow - there is no way around that. And it takes more energy to move all that weight - there is no way around that. At some point, they won't be able to meet the standards anymore without going completely away from using fossil fuels. Who knows when that will be? Maybe sometime in the future, one will have to have a CDL and commercial plates just to own and operate a Suburban-sized vehicle.

[the Teuton]

America has always thrived on the prosperity of its citizens.  This seems like stab in the back to anyone who wants something but will no longer be able to get it because the government doesn't like it.

[Eye of the Tiger]

America has always thrived on the prosperity of its citizens.  This seems like stab in the back to anyone who wants something but will no longer be able to get it because the government doesn't like it.

I want to get stoned with a hooker while carrying a loaded gun and pumping my own gas in New Jersey, but you can't always get what you want.

[the Teuton]

I want to get stoned with a hooker while carrying a loaded gun and pumping my own gas in New Jersey, but you can't always get what you want.

But within the law, we've always been a country of boundless freedoms.  That's why we are who we are.

[Morris Minor]

Whether or not emissions regulations are good for the country is a completely seperate issue from whether or not each state should be able to set their own.

Exactamundo.

This also shows the cowardice of the government. The quickest most logical way to cut emissions would be a huge gasoline tax ($5.00/gal). This would serve three purposes:

1) Bend consumers to the will of the government's Warmology followers
2) Extract cash for Washington.
3) Make us more like Europeans

Instead of doing this, they slap goofy "standards" on the car industry, hide behind those and blame the car industry when things go wrong.

Either way the consumer pays, but politicians know that by taking the goofy standards route, people are too stupid to see behind the smoke & mirrors & so will continue voting to keep them in office.

[GoCougs]

I thought states' rights was a longstanding conservative position? Or is that states should only have the right to make decisions you agree with?

This I have to agree with. If a state wants to enact tougher standards, let them. The fairy tale I'd like to see is the automakers simply pulling out that state, but that likely won't happen.

The goal of course is not states' rights, but to let one state enforce its version of morality onto another, as the federal government would likely not be able to enact the same standards itself.

It won't kill car companies - car companies will simply be forced to offer an inferior product at greater cost.

The country voted for this - we knew it was coming, along with a whole host of other kookiness. Don't be surprised at the return of national 55 mph speed limit.

LOL - Liberalism is liberalism - what'd ya expect? Better get used to it.

[Byteme]

Boy, do you ever sound like a socialist: "It implies consumers always choose what's in their best interest...".  So you want to mandate it?

No, don't want  mandate that.  The point of my post was the inconsistancy of chastising the voters for not being knowledgable about candidates and thus not choosing the candidate that is best for them.  But when it comes to buying a car they know what is best for them. 

I'd argue consumers are probably equally knowdegable (or unknowledgable) in each case. 

[Byteme]

The Suburban driver already pays more.  Not per gallon, but for a tank.  A Suburban costs, for arguments sake, $100 to fill from empty, whereas a Civic costs $25, and they both have to fill their tanks after the same distance travelled.  People seem to forget that gas already costs the Suburban driver more.

Did you now see the smilie face?  That was tossed out in jest.

[hotrodalex]

I want to see car companies do this - simply say "fuck you" to all the states with different standards and stop selling cars there. The government would learn pretty quickly I think.

Too bad it won't happen.

[Byteme]

Taxing gas different is discrimination, and it's illegal.

You sure about that?  Taxing at different rates becasue of vehicle differences?  I think there is a precedent.  The gas guzzler tax.  It's aone time tax but the principle is the same. 

[ifcar]

Does anyone know if the California emissions standards that blocked diesels a few years ago applied to used cars? If not, a possible solution would be for automakers to find a way to brand their new cars as "0-mile certified used."

[Byteme]

I want to see car companies do this - simply say "fuck you" to all the states with different standards and stop selling cars there. The government would learn pretty quickly I think.

Too bad it won't happen.

That would pretty much kill any profits they might hope to make.

I don't think anyone would argue there needs to be a single standard.  What I see happening is Obama cleverly advancing th timetable for mileage and emissions improvements while making California the bad guy.

[hotrodalex]

That would pretty much kill any profits they might hope to make.

Yeah, that's why it won't happen.

[Soup DeVille]

Not really. Either they'd follow the strictest, or they just wouldn't be sold in some states.

Are you not familiar withthe concept of "California Emissions?"

[Soup DeVille]

The EU has been setting carbon emissions standards for a several years now. Pick up a copy of CAR magazine, it's referenced constantly in the articles and the ads. Nobody complains about it.

Well, fuck, if the EUs doin' it, its gotta be the right way!

[GoCougs]

Maybe, but as Nacar pointed out it might not really be all that bad for someone who drives an expedition or surbuban 30 miles one way to work alone to rethink their decision.

Asn an alternative I'd like to see a tiered gasoline tax that charges gas guzzlers more per gallon but that would be impossible to implement and police.  If no one likes that I can think up some other draconian tax schemes.  

Full-size SUV owners know very well how much it costs to fuel such a thing, and should they NOT want to do it, they are free to sell it and buy something else.

This pseudo morality has little to do with the "environment" and much to do with people getting their kicks from controlling people.

[r0tor]

what really gets me in an outrage is going to be the liberal greenies in california will effectively have the power to control the emissions policy for the country... 1 state should not have that power

[GoCougs]

what really gets me in an outrage is going to be the liberal greenies in california will effectively have the power to control the emissions policy for the country... 1 state should not have that power

Relative innocuous compared to a far left president and left congress. Just wait till the next two Supreme Court justices are replaced with Ginsberg-like hard leftists.

California ain't got nothing on that cauldron.

[the Teuton]

what really gets me in an outrage is going to be the liberal greenies in california will effectively have the power to control the emissions policy for the country... 1 state should not have that power

When Waxman (from Cali) took over for Dingle (from Michigan) on the environmental oversight committee in the House, no one saw any of this coming?

[Byteme]

Full-size SUV owners know very well how much it costs to fuel such a thing, and should they NOT want to do it, they are free to sell it and buy something else.

Which explains why I heard so many bitching and moaning when it started costing them $100 plus to fill it up.  They thought they knew what it would cost when they bought it and gas was a buck and a half.  

"Free to sell it and buy something else."  Exactly my point when I wrote "it might not really be all that bad for someone who drives an expedition or surbuban 30 miles one way to work alone to rethink their decision."  No controlling there, no siree, just a statement that people might want to rethink a prior decision".

 

[ChrisV]

 No controlling there, no siree, just a statement that people might want to rethink a prior decision".

 

Yeah, to rethink it and make the same choice YOU make. No, no controlling there.

Why don't we have everyone buy the same things, look the same, think the same, act the same. Perfectly homogenous and sterile little sheeple.

[Morris Minor]

Which explains why I heard so many bitching and moaning when it started costing them $100 plus to fill it up.  They thought they knew what it would cost when they bought it and gas was a buck and a half.  

"Free to sell it and buy something else."  Exactly my point when I wrote "it might not really be all that bad for someone who drives an expedition or surbuban 30 miles one way to work alone to rethink their decision."  No controlling there, no siree, just a statement that people might want to rethink a prior decision".

So let's forget all this nonsense and go with a nationwide $5.00/gal gas tax hike. It would be cheap & simple to implement & drastically cut emissions. 

[SVT666]

If North America had a public transportation system or train system like Europe, then high gas taxes wouldn't be a huge deal, but we don't.  For a large percentage of the population, driving is the only option.

[Byteme]

Yeah, to rethink it and make the same choice YOU make. No, no controlling there.

Why don't we have everyone buy the same things, look the same, think the same, act the same. Perfectly homogenous and sterile little sheeple.

That's a pretty extraordinary statment coming from you, the one who complains when people don't think like you think they should.

In truth I don't really care what choice someone makes as long as they don't come crying when they regret their choice.