General Motors to eliminate Saturn brand, phase-out Pontiac

[the Teuton]

Harley-like? I don't think so. Maybe Toyota-like. Maybe.

Do people picnic at Toyota factories and go to spa sessions with their Toyotas?

People did with their Saturns.

[Laconian]

Do people picnic at Toyota factories and go to spa sessions with their Toyotas?

People did with their Saturns.

I doubt that stuff originated from the grassroots. I sense the meddlesome hand of marketing.

[cozmik]

For some reason i see saab "retreating" back to a standalone company. I dont' know why but it seems to me they don't have to fall with GM.

That seems the be the direction GM is going with Saab. They want to either find a buyer, or spin them off. Providing they can come to an agreement with the Swedish government, a spin off will come quickly. I'd say that Saab will quickly pull out of the US market in that case as well. Saab doesn't have enough volume to be profitable in the US without a North American manufacturing base, which is gone with GM. If Saab survives, it'll be a European only brand, is my hunch.

Increasingly, I find I feel GM just doesn't deserve to exist at all. I'm not really sure any of the Detroit 3 do honestly. Ford got lucky though by just about going under 2 years back, and that's saved them now. Chrysler needs to go away, and the fact the GM thinks it still need GMC of all brands show how stupid they are. "Hey, I got a great idea, let's keep the most redundant brand we have!" GM does not deserve to exist. Chrsyler does not deserve to exist. Ford does not deserve to exist (but they will). The only reason I want any of them to continue to at this point is because of the job loss that would come should they no longer exist.

[hotrodalex]

That seems the be the direction GM is going with Saab. They want to either find a buyer, or spin them off. Providing they can come to an agreement with the Swedish government, a spin off will come quickly. I'd say that Saab will quickly pull out of the US market in that case as well. Saab doesn't have enough volume to be profitable in the US without a North American manufacturing base, which is gone with GM. If Saab survives, it'll be a European only brand, is my hunch.

Increasingly, I find I feel GM just doesn't deserve to exist at all. I'm not really sure any of the Detroit 3 do honestly. Ford got lucky though by just about going under 2 years back, and that's saved them now. Chrysler needs to go away, and the fact the GM thinks it still need GMC of all brands show how stupid they are. "Hey, I got a great idea, let's keep the most redundant brand we have!" GM does not deserve to exist. Chrsyler does not deserve to exist. Ford does not deserve to exist (but they will). The only reason I want any of them to continue to at this point is because of the job loss that would come should they no longer exist.

GMC is a money-maker. Why get rid of it?

[TurboDan]

That seems the be the direction GM is going with Saab. They want to either find a buyer, or spin them off. Providing they can come to an agreement with the Swedish government, a spin off will come quickly. I'd say that Saab will quickly pull out of the US market in that case as well. Saab doesn't have enough volume to be profitable in the US without a North American manufacturing base, which is gone with GM. If Saab survives, it'll be a European only brand, is my hunch.

GM has tons of infrastructure and manufacturing capacity that they, most likely, will no longer need once all this goes through.  I'm sure whatever company takes control of Saab (perhaps Saab AB will buy it back?) would be willing to lease some of that capacity for a U.S. presence.

I can say that Saab sells very well in specific areas.  However, it sells horrifically bad everywhere else.  New England, New Jersey, eastern Pennsylvania, Florida and a few other scattered random areas are the only places where they do well.  In NJ, they sell excellently.  If the new owner could focus just on selling them where they are successful, introducing a few new models and expanding from there, they could be profitable.

Remember when nobody would touch an Audi with a 10-foot pole?  Now they're challenging the likes of BMW and Mercedes as "the" European car to have.  There's no reason Saab wouldn't be able to do the same with the right number of models, better styling and some good marketing.

Never, NEVER get rid of the key in the middle, though!

[Soup DeVille]

I remember the buzz around saturn in the early 90's. The unique(for GM) fuel efficient vehicles and the buying experience that made none car people into car people, it was a very attractive experience to the casual car buyer. I recall many stories of happy buyers and their experience with the dealers, the employees and the cars.

Then in the mid 90's GM stepped in and tried to "integrate" their "different kind of car company" into the herd. A short 10 years later saturn is on the block just moments away from having it's head fall into the basket.

Over the years i've realized that GM's biggest enemy is itself.

Among the claims that GM made for Saturn were that it would never sell a re-badged anything, that it would be entirely designed and built in the US, and you would never have to haggle for price at the dealership.

They threw away those "ideals" as quickly as they made them.

[Soup DeVille]

Do people picnic at Toyota factories and go to spa sessions with their Toyotas?

People did with their Saturns.

Did, did.

[Catman]

Yeah, GM just was not in it for the long haul.  I think the Saturn ideology was a good idea but disappeared as fast as the people who came up with it.

[YO]

Saab has been dead for 15 years... the current 5 is older than many expansion teams, the 3 is on a dated last get malibu chasis and the 97X... well says it all...

RIP saab RIP

As for Hummer... merge it with Cadillac and maybe even dare I say Saab with Saab holding the entry luxury side.

Dump Pontiac and GMC and streamline Buick with Chevy...

[CALL_911]

Saab has been dead for 15 years... the current 5 is older than many expansion teams, the 3 is on a dated last get malibu chasis and the 97X... well says it all...

RIP saab RIP

As for Hummer... merge it with Cadillac and maybe even dare I say Saab with Saab holding the entry luxury side.

Dump Pontiac and GMC and streamline Buick with Chevy...

I think you're onto something here.

Saab could become a legitimate fighter in the entry-lux category, it's just that GM has choked the shit out of it. If GM sells it, and another company (I don't know what company, exactly) buys it over, I think there's still some life left in it.

I don't know about Hummer. I don't think a Hummer-shaped Cadillac would fly. I agree with you dumping Pontiac and GMC, but I think Buick should be kept separate from Chevy.

[YO]

don't make a hummer a caddy... just sell them in the same shop.

The Saabs are horrible. I worked at a Caddy/Saab dealer for six months last year.  Saab has not made a competitive car in 20 years. I went to the 9X ride  and drive.. .A SAAB event and came away enjoying all the competitors...  Every magazine head to head in my memory, saab has finished dead last... The only life I see for it is filling the void of the CTS since it's grown in size...

I think you're onto something here.

Saab could become a legitimate fighter in the entry-lux category, it's just that GM has choked the shit out of it. If GM sells it, and another company (I don't know what company, exactly) buys it over, I think there's still some life left in it.

I don't know about Hummer. I don't think a Hummer-shaped Cadillac would fly. I agree with you dumping Pontiac and GMC, but I think Buick should be kept separate from Chevy.

[2o6]

I think you're onto something here.

Saab could become a legitimate fighter in the entry-lux category, it's just that GM has choked the shit out of it. If GM sells it, and another company (I don't know what company, exactly) buys it over, I think there's still some life left in it.

I don't know about Hummer. I don't think a Hummer-shaped Cadillac would fly. I agree with you dumping Pontiac and GMC, but I think Buick should be kept separate from Chevy.

GMC turns a profit, a nicely sized one too. Dropping GMC is actually a dumb move.

[dazzleman]

don't make a hummer a caddy... just sell them in the same shop.

The Saabs are horrible. I worked at a Caddy/Saab dealer for six months last year.  Saab has not made a competitive car in 20 years. I went to the 9X ride  and drive.. .A SAAB event and came away enjoying all the competitors...  Every magazine head to head in my memory, saab has finished dead last... The only life I see for it is filling the void of the CTS since it's grown in size...

Interesting.  Saabs have long been very popular in Connecticut, for whatever reason, and I'm used to seeing a lot of them on the road.  They radically changed their look about 10 years ago, becoming a lot more mainstream, and they started selling really well around here.  I test drove one in 2000 before I bought my first BMW -- a 9-5 -- and found its driveability inferior to the other options (Audi, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes).  Probably not a fair comparison, but I did like the look of the Saab, and I still do.

For GM, what they're doing is probably too late.  I remember when Saturn was launched, so it really wasn't around long, in the grand scheme of things.  The guys are right in saying that Saturn never truly found its niche.  I remember some of the annoying commercials where they were trying to appeal to women who were intimidated to negotiate car price with a salesman, and they emphasized how many saleswomen they had.  I had that sort of approach, and it probably alienated some male purchasers.

This is sort of like doing major surgery on a patient that is totally sclerotic.  Sort of like Gorbachev's perestroika.  They waited until the patient was so sick to do the necessary surgery, that now the surgery itself will probably kill it.

[CALL_911]

don't make a hummer a caddy... just sell them in the same shop.

The Saabs are horrible. I worked at a Caddy/Saab dealer for six months last year.  Saab has not made a competitive car in 20 years. I went to the 9X ride  and drive.. .A SAAB event and came away enjoying all the competitors...  Every magazine head to head in my memory, saab has finished dead last... The only life I see for it is filling the void of the CTS since it's grown in size...

They're cool cars, and they've got the styling down, which matters to a lot of the buyers. Cars like the TurboX are helping the brand. GM has choked it, but with some proper management, I think it can have an Infiniti-style comeback.

I learned stick in a 9-3 2.0T SS, and I enjoyed the car. But yeah, I agree, right now, they suck pretty hard (with the exception of the TurboX and the 9-3 XWD).

The Hummer image has been destroyed beyond repair, IMO. I think it's better off dead.

[YO]

sorry... I beg to difffer. They look extremely dated.. lack ALL of the modern techonolgy of a Civic or Fit and most people think the styling screams 1998. As one of my salespeople put it, the saab 9/3, 9/5 doesn't even compete with the Accord, Camry and Altima when in comes to power, safety and features... and he was right.

The 9X is a perfect example. That should be the STANDARD 9/3. GM is bleeding money so why not invest in something other then a rebate. Price that car at $31,000 and you have a hit. Even with a crappy nav and a sloppy AWD system...

They're cool cars, and they've got the styling down, which matters to a lot of the buyers. Cars like the TurboX are helping the brand. GM has choked it, but with some proper management, I think it can have an Infiniti-style comeback.

I learned stick in a 9-3 2.0T SS, and I enjoyed the car. But yeah, I agree, right now, they suck pretty hard (with the exception of the TurboX and the 9-3 XWD).

The Hummer image has been destroyed beyond repair, IMO. I think it's better off dead.

[CALL_911]

sorry... I beg to difffer. They look extremely dated.. lack ALL of the modern techonolgy of a Civic or Fit and most people think the styling screams 1998. As one of my salespeople put it, the saab 9/3, 9/5 doesn't even compete with the Accord, Camry and Altima when in comes to power, safety and features... and he was right.

The 9X is a perfect example. That should be the STANDARD 9/3. GM is bleeding money so why not invest in something other then a rebate. Price that car at $31,000 and you have a hit. Even with a crappy nav and a sloppy AWD system...

I can't comment on the nav/AWD systems, as I know nothing about them, but I think they look okay. They looked better before all the swoopy, angular shit, but still.

The 9-5 looks like shit, though.

[YO]

the 9/5 design is older then you are

I can't comment on the nav/AWD systems, as I know nothing about them, but I think they look okay. They looked better before all the swoopy, angular shit, but still.

The 9-5 looks like shit, though.

[2o6]

the 9/5 design is older then you are

I was going to contest that, until I looked it up.


The GM2900 platform debuted in 1989.

[Soup DeVille]

the 9/5 design is older then you are

Stupid argument.

So is the Ferrari Daytona.

[CALL_911]

the 9/5 design is older then you are

So is the NSX, but who's counting?

[the Teuton]

What they need to do to integrate Pontiac into Buick:





Sell it with a stick and the LS3 and call it the Grand National for all I care.  But GM could kill all of Hyundai's buzz with this car.

[/2o6]

[r0tor]

I think all of GM's individual brand dealerships should be changed to "General Motors" dealerships.  Pontiac could be slimmed down to 1 model - the G8.  Buick could be slimmed down to the LaCrosse.  Hummer slimmed down to just the H2.  Saturn could keep the Aura.  All operations should run out of the same GM offices and share the same resources.  Over time the brands could grow once again.


...basically let each brand have a UNIQUE car and stop the wastefulness of rebadging every craptacular car 2 or 3 times....

[cozmik]

Saab has apparently just filed for "protection" in Sweden, which apparently gives them 9 months to reorganize.

Saabs have always been very popular in the North East US. The 9-3 is the old car that is somewhat up to date though. And it needs to be replaced at this point. The AWD system is very advanced, and the 2.8t is a great and new engine, but the rest isn't there at this point. Except for safety, anyone who says they don't match the best in safety need to look at the tests, the 9-3 convertible still has the best crash tests on the market.

I still see a retreat from the US market, should Saab survive.

[Raza]

What they need to do to integrate Pontiac into Buick:





Sell it with a stick and the LS3 and call it the Grand National for all I care.  But GM could kill all of Hyundai's buzz with this car.

[/2o6]

With a stick, I'd buy it.

[Nethead]

Saab has apparently just filed for "protection" in Sweden, which apparently gives them 9 months to reorganize.

Saabs have always been very popular in the North East US. The 9-3 is the old car that is somewhat up to date though. And it needs to be replaced at this point. The AWD system is very advanced, and the 2.8t is a great and new engine, but the rest isn't there at this point. Except for safety, anyone who says they don't match the best in safety need to look at the tests, the 9-3 convertible still has the best crash tests on the market.

I still see a retreat from the US market, should Saab survive.

cozmik:  CozDude, the Mustang is the  only  convertible sold in the US with a 5-Star safety rating in all categories.  The 9-3 convertible might be in second place, but it ain't first.  If it's even second, it's likely a distant second...

[cozmik]

cozmik:  CozDude, the Mustang is the  only  convertible sold in the US with a 5-Star safety rating in all categories.  The 9-3 convertible might be in second place, but it ain't first.  If it's even second, it's likely a distant second...

Sorry, I didn't look at the NHSTA ratings, only IIHS, where the 9-3 is the best. period. sorry dude.

[ifcar]

NHTSA hasn't tested the 9-3 convertible. When both cars were tested by the IIHS, the Saab fared much better than the Mustang, which is one of the few new cars available that didn't get the highest frontal crash test rating.

[traumadog]

Personally, I think there can be a role for Pontiac, moreso than Buick (at least in the US).

It'll take a little creative model mix for it to work, but hopefully the past few model missteps can be forgotten.

First, ditch the G3.  Swap the G5's motor for the 1.4DI turbo slated for the Cruze - or have Pontiac get first dibs on that model instead.  Replace the G6 with the Insignia (Saturn doesn't need it now), and give it the AWD powertrain from Saab, and the LNF 2.0DI turbo.

Done right, and you could quickly redo the brand's performance image to slot between the G8 and Solstice.