Is GM done?

[Speed_Racer]

Basically, everything people related with the companies was a total fuckup.

I was supportive of the loans to keep them going, but after seeing their so called plans, I'm ready for them to die. Quickly. They still have no plan, they're just saying what they've been saying all along. They've not offered any real way to achieve these goals, just stated they will. With magic I guess.

Exactly. The faster they leave, the less we have to contribute to the national "Keep Crappy Companies that Can't Run Themselves Afloat" fund. I've removed any GM from my future car-buying list because I'm so upset about this fiasco.

PS Where's that one poster with the Windstar on it?

[Submariner]

I know what you mean. I think the COMPANY is getting exactly what it deserves. Years of mismanagement and frankly worthless leadership has resulted in a company that is worthless. Sadly the people responsable will collect large severence packages and shrug it off while the people who worked hard and had no say in the dreadful product over the years will be the ones who really suffer. I could care less if the company fails, but i do really feel for those(the workers) that are affected by the decisions of the fools above them. They had no say in the decisions that resulted in the lose of their jobs, homes and financial stability.

The Unions deserve everything they get.

[Speed_Racer]

The Unions deserve everything they get.

Correction: They deserve less than what they're still getting.

[Nethead]

And that is the simple boiled down truth. No matter what anyone says these "loans" are nothing but life support payments. A few billion dollars buys them another few weeks, maybe a month. There is no simple fix.

Today, GM indicated it may need to ask for continued contributions until 2011, totalling (counting money already contributed) $30,000,000,000.00 by 2011!!!  If that has not returned them to a profitability level that will allow them to begin paying back the earlier contributions, they may request a suspension of some of that earlier debt (cancellation of the requirement to pay back the early contributions).  But by 2011, all of the $30,000,000,000.00 may be considered "early contributions" by GM Legal, so it leaves the door open for GM to ask not to pay any of it back.

I  gotta  get into this auto manufacturing racket!  This could be more enriching than the media ministry or even professional sports!  WooHoo!

Mikey likes it!!!

[FlatBlackCaddy]

You feel for the unionized workers, who sucked the company dry over a period of decades?

And sure they had a say - if they didn't like it, they could leave and find another job.  They would never do that though, as they were being paid significantly above-market wages in exchange for their (largely unskilled) labour.

I'm not saying the company was well managed (it wasn't), but GM, F, and Chrysler's underlying structural problem lies in their overpaid, inefficient union labor forces. 

I have less sympathy for the loud outspoken and brainwashed members that ruined GM. There was a good number(i'm sure) that TRIED to stay neutral and just have a job to support their family. Or those that(as you stated) knew they were in a stable high paying job and even though they disagreed were fearful of moving on. The possibility of half(or no) wages and struggling to find a job while your family suffered would keep even the most strongly opposed from taking that chance.

Their are some i feel for, and more importantly the families(children) of those that will be out of work.

[GoCougs]

No, GM is not done. If the political winds had an ounce of capitalism they'd simply let the market take care of the problem. GM still has lots of market share and lots of income - killing the retiree programs and slashing union compensation by 50% would do it.

However, the practicals is that rather than leaving it up to the free market, pseudo government morality of protecting jobs and retirees looks like it will lead to a nationalized GM, or at least partially so.

[Soup DeVille]

Exactly. The faster they leave, the less we have to contribute to the national "Keep Crappy Companies that Can't Run Themselves Afloat" fund. I've removed any GM from my future car-buying list because I'm so upset about this fiasco.

PS Where's that one poster with the Windstar on it?

Oh no, there are many, many possible GMS which I would buy in the future.

Surprisingly few of them made after 1980 though...

[Soup DeVille]

I have less sympathy for the loud outspoken and brainwashed members that ruined GM. There was a good number(i'm sure) that TRIED to stay neutral and just have a job to support their family. Or those that(as you stated) knew they were in a stable high paying job and even though they disagreed were fearful of moving on. The possibility of half(or no) wages and struggling to find a job while your family suffered would keep even the most strongly opposed from taking that chance.

Their are some i feel for, and more importantly the families(children) of those that will be out of work.

Anybody with an ounce of awareness has been talking about the downward spiral GM has been on for well over two decades now, but if you ask the average long-term GM employee about their savings and their investment portfolios, very few of them have any substantial saving and most of them own primarliy (as in 80% plus) GM stocks.

Now, I'm not saying that we should expect genius financial planning from the average lineworker, but I still say there's something hugely wrong with that picture.

[NomisR]

Anybody with an ounce of awareness has been talking about the downward spiral GM has been on for well over two decades now, but if you ask the average long-term GM employee about their savings and their investment portfolios, very few of them have any substantial saving and most of them own primarliy (as in 80% plus) GM stocks.

Now, I'm not saying that we should expect genius financial planning from the average lineworker, but I still say there's something hugely wrong with that picture.

Epic Fail?

[Vinsanity]

Interesting article in Monday's LA Times symbolizing the Impala and Malibu with the "old GM" and "new GM": http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-gm16-2009feb16,0,6820438.story

It goes on to describe how fucked GM is right now; they have to revamp their entire structure and get rid of a sizable chunk of their dealership network, but all of that costs money that they don't have right now. Hence the request to borrow an additional billion or five.

[Soup DeVille]

Epic Fail?

I have to say so. My grandfather retired from GM in 1982. With the money in the bank he had at that time, he went back down south and bought a farm (literally). 100+ acres, with house barn, and most of the wroking apparatus. Cash. he still had a lot in his account (well over 6 digits) when he passed away 8 years later.

But today I'm lead to believe that the average GM retiree's only source of income is their monthly retirement check?

[TurboDan]

For me, there is no midsize car by either F or GM that I would want to buy.  Show me a car (non premium brand) as nice as a Passat or Accord Coupe on the interior and exterior that handles well and I'll buy it.

Sorry, but GM's cars seem like toys...  perhaps cars you'd buy for a high schooler on the cheap.  Gaps in the dash panels?  Cheap plastic buttons?  Unsturdy molding around dash components?  Cheap, fake wood?  No excuse for that stuff!

I'm NO Honda fan.  But I rode in an '09 Accord Coupe the other week and came away very, very impressed.  They nearly have reached "German quality" on the interior.  Why are our car makers still doing everything on the cheap?

[Vinsanity]

For me, there is no midsize car by either F or GM that I would want to buy.  Show me a car (non premium brand) as nice as a Passat or Accord Coupe on the interior and exterior that handles well and I'll buy it.

Sorry, but GM's cars seem like toys...  perhaps cars you'd buy for a high schooler on the cheap.  Gaps in the dash panels?  Cheap plastic buttons?  Unsturdy molding around dash components?  Cheap, fake wood?  No excuse for that stuff!

I'm NO Honda fan.  But I rode in an '09 Accord Coupe the other week and came away very, very impressed.  They nearly have reached "German quality" on the interior.  Why are our car makers still doing everything on the cheap?

What do you think of the Malibu?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

What do you think of the Malibu?

+1 I've read very good reviews concerning the fit/finish of the Mally!

[SVT666]

For me, there is no midsize car by either F or GM that I would want to buy.  Show me a car (non premium brand) as nice as a Passat or Accord Coupe on the interior and exterior that handles well and I'll buy it.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

The fusion interior may be very well built but there certainly are some visual things that keep it from looking top notch like the passat or CC.

[MX793]

To cover their losses in N/A.

I think their Euro division is also profitable.

Bankruptcy will happen, the question is how much money and time our government will waste trying to stop it from happening.

Europe is suffering too.  That was one thing I read in an article a while back.  In past automotive downturns in North America, European sales didn't decline and it helped keep the company afloat, and vice versa when Euro sales were sagging.  This is the first time both markets have taken a dive.

[VTEC_Inside]

Exactly. The faster they leave, the less we have to contribute to the national "Keep Crappy Companies that Can't Run Themselves Afloat" fund. I've removed any GM from my future car-buying list because I'm so upset about this fiasco.

PS Where's that one poster with the Windstar on it?

[TurboDan]

+1 I've read very good reviews concerning the fit/finish of the Mally!

It's not terrible.  I still see some remnants of cheap plastic and definite dash panel gaps.  I saw the gaps in the Fusion too. It kinda looks like a Lego toy that was pieced together.

Passat interior:

[SVT666]

The fusion interior may be very well built but there certainly are some visual things that keep it from looking top notch like the passat or CC.

The Passat and CC also cost significantly more.

[dazzleman]

I voted yes.  They can't keep burning through several billion dollars a month, and expect the taxpayers to finance it.

They should have cut down their brands at an earlier date.  I think they waited too long to reform.  It's sort of like waiting until a patient is really sick to perform necessary surgery.  By that point, the surgery itself could kill him.  Same thing with GM.  They just waited to long, and threw away earlier chances to get themselves right.

I think bankruptcy is the only option.  They may be able to emerge as a smaller company, possibly free of the onerous union rules that have hobbled them.  They also need new management.

The company has argued that nobody will buy a car from a bankrupt company.  But at this point, most people who are concerned about bankruptcy would avoid them anyway, since they've been so close to the brink for a while, and will clearly go off the cliff at some point.  So it's just a formality.  Why not just pull the trigger and get it behind them.  I think it's really their only shot at recovery.

[Catman]

Interesting article in Monday's LA Times symbolizing the Impala and Malibu with the "old GM" and "new GM": http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-gm16-2009feb16,0,6820438.story

It goes on to describe how fucked GM is right now; they have to revamp their entire structure and get rid of a sizable chunk of their dealership network, but all of that costs money that they don't have right now. Hence the request to borrow an additional billion or five.

That's a good article.  It really demonstrates the complex problems that exist for GM.

[Catman]

Growing on me.........looks good!  I always liked the basic layout inside too.

[Colonel Cadillac]

I haven't read the thread, but here are my two cents:
According to an article I read on somewhere on the internet, GM is claiming bankruptcy would cost around $100B. This way, the $16B they're asking for looks like nothing in comparison.

I can't help but think that bankruptcy would not cost this much, and now that the market has settled to some degree, a fast and efficient bankruptcy would work best for everyone--they could layoff a solid portion of their workforce (and not have to offer them buyouts!) which would negatively impact the general economy, but would not affect it as much as a full-blown complete liquidation of the company. I am naive of many details in this department, but if GM could procure some funds to stay afloat for another month or two, they could hire some super-experts and work out a plan for bankruptcy during this time to ensure it can execute the plan with haste. GM would want the seriously minimize litigation because anything involving the courts takes a lot of time and it's pricey.

This way they have the benefits of bankruptcy, yet can remain in business. For example, GM has FAR too many dealers (something like 5x the number of dealers as Toyota in the US) and it could use the bankruptcy to force a few thousand dealers out of the market. It could also rid itself of various obligations to the UAW. With the money they get from liquidating all the assets from brands like Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer (if that Chinese company does not buy it...which brings me to another question, where will the US get Humvees?...but that is off-topic), and Saab, I assume they can certainly pay off a fair amount of their debt  (maybe $10B worth?) and the government can chip in some as well.

They would then be left with a reasonable dealer network with GMC, Chevy, Cadillac, and Buick that can turn profitable within a relatively short period of time I am guessing. Then, if they do not get too cocky and favor mild growth or no growth until the demand exists again, they can slowly repay more of their debt over the next 15-20 years.

Also, I think GM having 4 brands may still be too many and they need to deal with the fact that Buick and Cadillac compete against each other. What I would suggest is some sort of merger where the name Buick can be used in China and the regions where it does well and the name Cadillac in North America and Europe (how is Cadillac doing in Europe?). Cadillac's current objective is to be BMW-like and Buick's objective is to be more like Lexus. What I would suggest is for the two companies (as one) completely re-badge and re-engineer the platforms for their prospective markets, but use very similar technology.

If any of you have read this far, I would also call for a new strategy for GMC--with gas prices inevitably rising and fuel economy standards rising as well, they could maybe shift their focus to more specifically commercial vehicles and letting Chevy pick up the remaining slack with the civilian trucks and SUV's.

[MrH]

Their turn around time on developing new cars is painfully slow too.  I can't even begin to think how much money would be necessary to keep GM alive until they develop and release a competitive small car.  Assuming they produce something competitive (which is definitely not a given, looking at their recent track record), they have an impossible uphill battle to fight with consumers.  They don't have a good reputation with consumers, and no one is buying if they're going to file for bankruptcy anytime soon.

[SVT666]

Saturn writes letter to owners about possible spinoff

General Motors? recently submitted viability plan didn?t exactly contain any good news for Saturn or its dealers, but another plan could be in the works for the once-promising division. In a letter to customers, Saturn revealed that it is strongly considering a spinoff from GM.

GM doesn?t plan to keep Saturn around after 2011, but it remains possible the marque could survive on as the Saturn Distribution Corporation. SDC already exists as a subsidiary of General Motors, but it could continue on as a separate entity.

If SDC does continue on after 2011, the company would source its vehicle from another automaker. It?s far too early to predict what cars could eventually become future Saturns, but Jill Lajdziak, Saturn?s General Manager, says the vehicles would have to be ?fuel-efficient, safe, reliable and affordable.?

Although the letter sounds rather optimistic ? even comparing these trying times to the 1980s when the Saturn concept was being developed ? it remains to be seen how successful the SDC would be. It seems as though future Saturns would simply be badge engineered cars, which hasn?t exactly worked out for the current Saturn.

[hotrodalex]

The military gets humvees from AM General, not Hummer.

(at least I think)

[SVT666]

The military gets humvees from AM General, not Hummer.

(at least I think)

GM owns AM General.

[the Teuton]

Colonel Cadillac--

To answer one of your questions, GM owns part of AM General, the maker of the Humvee, but it does not own the Humvee that the military makes.  GM bought the name and has been using it for the civilian vehicles. 

[Catman]

Saturn writes letter to owners about possible spinoff

General Motors? recently submitted viability plan didn?t exactly contain any good news for Saturn or its dealers, but another plan could be in the works for the once-promising division. In a letter to customers, Saturn revealed that it is strongly considering a spinoff from GM.

GM doesn?t plan to keep Saturn around after 2011, but it remains possible the marque could survive on as the Saturn Distribution Corporation. SDC already exists as a subsidiary of General Motors, but it could continue on as a separate entity.

If SDC does continue on after 2011, the company would source its vehicle from another automaker. It?s far too early to predict what cars could eventually become future Saturns, but Jill Lajdziak, Saturn?s General Manager, says the vehicles would have to be ?fuel-efficient, safe, reliable and affordable.?

Although the letter sounds rather optimistic ? even comparing these trying times to the 1980s when the Saturn concept was being developed ? it remains to be seen how successful the SDC would be. It seems as though future Saturns would simply be badge engineered cars, which hasn?t exactly worked out for the current Saturn.

Realistically, where would they get a decent line from?