2010 Lexus RX

[nickdrinkwater]

/\ Chrysler does have more history but any prestige they had disappeared a long time ago when they made cars like the PT Cruiser.  The Voyage was somewhat upmarket, but the Sebring has undone that good work, for me anyway!

Back to the Lexus, looks crap.  The styling is awkward, it looks like they took some influence from the Acura TL thing that was posted on here recently, with those weird creases on the front arches.  The last time Lexus made a good looking car was the GS300.

Oh and I heard the only engine here will be the hybrid.  No diesel or 3.5.

[MrH]

Yeah, I don't think Wimmer understands Lexus' position here in the US.  It's right up there with Audi, BMW, and Mercedes to everyone here.  Infiniti is probably a step below that, and Acura even slightly below.

Chrysler makes mostly mainstream shit.  They're no luxury manufacturer really.

[2o6]

/\ Chrysler does have more history but any prestige they had disappeared a long time ago when they made cars like the PT Cruiser.  The Voyage was somewhat upmarket, but the Sebring has undone that good work, for me anyway!

Back to the Lexus, looks crap.  The styling is awkward, it looks like they took some influence from the Acura TL thing that was posted on here recently, with those weird creases on the front arches.  The last time Lexus made a good looking car was the GS300.

Oh and I heard the only engine here will be the hybrid.  No diesel or 3.5.

The PT cruiser was an excellent car. Models such as the Cirrus, Sebring and it's other models in it's lackluster lineup made it less prestigious.

[CJ]

Let's end this once and for all.


The new RX has an awful interior and exterior.  The old one is better.

[TBR]

The PT cruiser was an excellent car. Models such as the Cirrus, Sebring and it's other models in it's lackluster lineup made it less prestigious.

Actually, Chrysler just isn't a luxury brand and never really has been.

The Cirrus was a good car, FYI.

[YO]

Looks great... much like the old with a higher attention to detail... the width will help too...

Should keep it #1 with 85k plus sold...

[CJ]

Looks great... much like the old with a higher attention to detail... the width will help too...

Should keep it #1 with 85k plus sold...

It looks horrible.  The attention to detail is horrible.  The width makes it even uglier.

[the Teuton]

I like the old RX better.  This one almost makes me consider an X3 as a better car.  I thought I'd never say that.

It isn't the exterior that looks like puke; it's the interior.

[CJ]

It all looks liek puke.

[Yawn]

I can understand you may not like the E-class interior, but dude please tell me with a straight face that it is anywhere near as bad as this monstrosity and i'll be impressed.

I would rather by the current E Class the next generation E Class. I think the new E Class is Ugly. I think this RX is ugly too. Im just saying I would not be an idiot and spend money on any of this.

[ChrisV]

Actually, Chrysler just isn't a luxury brand and never really has been.

You cannot say "never." Maybe it hasn't been since the late '70s, but you simply can't say never. Not when the Imperial was in it's heyday, or even earlier than that.

[cawimmer430]

Most Americans who consider Lexus in the same league as BMW and Mercedes in terms of brand prestige probably don't even have the faintest clue about cars. Ask them who invented the car and they will most likely say "Henry Ford".

Does anyone there in the US even care about automotive history?

I have no problems with Lexus being a superior competitor to the Germans. When it comes to brand prestige though and achievements, somebody like me just can't give them credit for that. I can give them credit for great service and for building reliable cars with many standard features. That's it. The rest of Lexus success is also because of Toyota. Toyota had the money to build them up. The earliest Lexus customers were loyal and aging Toyota buyers who wanted something above an Avalon or Camry. And the fact that Toyota specifically engineered Lexus to suit American tastes. It is my understanding that Americans love to have fully loaded luxury cars with options that they will NEVER use or can't even pronounce. In Europe, we're not like that. We're a bit more sensible when it comes to luxury features. We're realistic about what we need and what we don't. I agree that the German brands should offer more for the money in the US, but in some way they do. They offer you everything essential to most buyers needs. The rest can be purchased if desired. This will appeal to sensible buyers who don't mind spending a bit more for this and that option, but for a value-conscious Toyota-Lexus buyer it doesn't speak to them.

The history and heritage and achievements of Mercedes and BMW kill Lexus a million times over. Brand prestige has top be earned. Mercedes and BMW earned it a long time ago through their achievements. They had to survive two World Wars and contrary to popular belief not much money of the Marshall Plan actually went to the rebuilding of Mercedes or BMW. In the case of Mercedes they had money stashed away in Switzerland deposited before World War II which was used after the war to rebuild the company. The 60s and 70s were pretty turbulent and BMW and Mercedes often had to radically adapt their cars for changing situations, such as the oil crisis etc. Lexus has never had to go through something like this. Never. And even if they did, daddy Toyota would be there to bail them out. Yeah, let's throw some money at Lexus.

I don't want to get into more details but my point is that Lexus succeeded by studying its competition, knowing American tastes and obviously because of the massive funds Toyota was able to pump into them. Compare the histories of these three brands and you will see that Lexus has had it so fucking easy. People make a big deal out of it, as if Lexus pulled off a miracle. They didn't, in my opinion. The American market is from what I can make out so dominated by marketing advertisements like in no other market. Americans are probably easily convinced, because from what I hear the new Hyundai Genesis is being received with open arms and actually selling well. Here in Europe Lexus isn't even a major consideration when people shop for a luxury car (no trim choices, no economical engines, piss poor resale value, minimal dealership distribution and more appealing European / Asian cars) and if Hyundai brought over the Genesis, it would FLOP, FAIL, SUCK AT SALES. At least Hyundai is wise enough to foresee this so there are no plans at bringing the Genesis over.

Oh, and the best-selling Lexus in the US are two Toyotas: the RX and the Camry-based ES. They're relatively cheap compared to other Lexus. The only other Lexus which outsells its European and American competition is the LS. The GS and IS and SC are not the sales leaders in their respective classes. Not sure about the LX and GX but since they're literally rebadged Toyotas I expect them to be cheaper and also selling in moderate to high numbers in their class. This should be put into context when referring to Lexus as the "best-selling luxury brand" in the US.

Back to the topic. I don't like Lexus, that's no secret, but I realize they're great for competition and have made the European and American brands step up their game. All brands are overrated in one way or the other, but Lexus takes my personal top spot for being the most overrated luxury brand currently on the market, especially when it comes to interiors.


Oh, and let's leave the name calling out of this, ok?

[ifcar]

"Does anyone there in the US even care about automotive history? "

Not really, no. When buying a car, most care about what they're getting, nothing more.

And why shouldn't they? That one automaker did something first isn't as important as who's doing it best right now.

[cawimmer430]

Bull. Shit.

Toyota's been around for a long time, and it created Lexus. The fact that Lexus whipped MB through the '90s  made them even more credible. All the prestige in the world is meaningless, if a new guy can come and upset you like Lexus did.

Please explain to me how Lexus whipped MB through the '90s?

I got some news for you. Why don't you think a bit about the '89 LS400 and why it was so "stunning" for a moment. The '89 LS400 my understanding was first theorized by Toyota in what, 1982? In 1984 I believe it was they had the first prototype ready for testing and improvement.

Now, let me unleash to you a number of facts about the W126 Mercedes S-Class it competed against. The W126 S-Class debuted in 1979 - a full 10 years before Toyota slapped a Lexus badge on their Toyota Celsior. It's predecessor, the W116, was released in 1972. We can then very well say that work on the W126 began in 1972/1973 then? Right? Close. Serious work on the W116 replacement, the W126, began in November of 1973 (Source: Mercedes Classic Magazine W108 vs W116 vs W126) and this included new engine development. So, the W126 came out in 1979 and production ended in 1991 (1993 in South Africa).

The LS400 was often compared to the 420SE / SEL W126 S-Class. This car used the M116 E42 engine - which was a carry-over from the W116 350SE (SEL). It was bored out to 4.2 liters, received some modifications here and there and was then installed in the W126, C126 and R107 models. It gets better. The M116 engine was developed for the W111 280SE 3.5 Coupe / Convertible, which debuted in October of 1969. 1969! Logic dictates that this engine was designed in the late 1960s.

The LS400 essentially competed a Mercedes that had an engine from the late 1960s in modern disguise under the hood. No shit the Lexus will outperform the 420SE in almost all regards. I wonder why magazines never put this into retrospective when comparing these two cars. Maybe they didn't think that far back or Lexus simply hired some hookers to go suck their cocks.   

Yes, the LS400 was a great car and it remains my favorite and most original Lexus to date, but its success based on competing with outdated rivals. The W140 S-Class was still considered the benchmark in its class, not the next-generation LS400. Maybe in America the love affair with Lexus starting taking off, but elsewhere people didn't want to be seen riding in good cars that had no prestige badge or that a brand that simply refused to adapt to different markets (like they still do).

You just can't deny what they have accomplished, and you cannot deny them their strengths (interiors).

See my post ^above^. I have explained my position here often enough.


I can give them credit where they deserve credit, like great service, great reliability and value, but that's it. They were too dependent on Toyota for financial aid and that aid helped them get where they are. Many of their "innovations" are not really considered innovations but simple improvements. Oh, and my biggest gripe with them is their bullshit about their hybrids. First they're fuel savers, then when it turns out that they're gas-guzzlers they're all of a sudden marketed as low-emission cars - and people fall for it too. 

[cawimmer430]

"Does anyone there in the US even care about automotive history? "

Not really, no.

Ok. So they don't, right?

Then they should shut the fuck up before making some stupid claims about Lexus being behind Porsche in terms of prestige. What the hell is Porsche doing up there anyway? That whole survey reeks of retardedness. I'm sorry, I really am but when you're asking clueless people to rank brands according to prestige they better have some good answers ready.

Porsche belongs in a different section with sports cars. Maybe they're considered "luxury-sports cars" in the US. In Europe Porsche is known as sports car maker first with some premium aspirations.

[ifcar]

Prestige is based entirely on what people think of the brand now. Not its history.

[cawimmer430]

Prestige is based entirely on what people think of the brand now. Not its history.

Not in my book.


Are we just going to give Lexus an equal footing in terms of brand prestige for what they have done in the US only?

BMW and Mercedes are global brands with a long, and in most countries, a well-known history. Are we going to ignore that history and those achievements?


That's like saying "Casio has just as much brand prestige as Rolex or Breitling because they're better value and have reached more target audiences than the other two despite not having the history of Breitling or Rolex."

[ifcar]

Not in my book.


Are we just going to give Lexus an equal footing in terms of brand prestige for what they have done in the US only?

BMW and Mercedes are global brands with a long, and in most countries, a well-known history. Are we going to ignore that history and those achievements?


That's like saying "Casio has just as much brand prestige as Rolex or Breitling because they're better value and have reached more target audiences than the other two despite not having the history of Breitling or Rolex."

The analogy is false because the product isn't close. Lexus has a comparable product to Mercedes. And just because history is important to you doesn't mean it has to be important to everyone else.

Furthermore, the European brands don't have the most history behind them in the US. That would be Cadillac and Lincoln, which are currently second-tier luxury brands at best.

[omicron]

Holy gods, are we doing this again?

[cawimmer430]

The analogy is false because the product isn't close. Lexus has a comparable product to Mercedes. And just because history is important to you doesn't mean it has to be important to everyone else.

My point is that you're taking a product that has essentially copied its competitors style and made it big by underpricing them and all of a sudden that makes them "prestigious"? 

For crying out loud, Mercedes-Benz was the brand that brought us the first modern automobile (I won't talk about their history or other numerous (unchallenged) achievements). What did Lexus give us? Reliable cars with good value? Mercedes slipped in the mid 1990s, call it a bad day in their history. Up to that point, their cars were known for reliability and durability. Nobody who bought a Mercedes in the old days gave a rats ass about value - they knew they were buying one of the best-made cars on the market. Paying the high price for the car and options was an "investment" in other words. And now, Mercedes has come back. Quality reports in Europe show that MB quality is on the rise once again.

Furthermore, the European brands don't have the most history behind them in the US. That would be Cadillac and Lincoln, which are currently second-tier luxury brands at best.

Yeah, I already figured that that is the issue. Americans don't know about the history and achievements of BMW, Audi, Mercedes or Citroen or Skoda etc. Tell them about the Mercedes-Benz motorsport achievements and they will stare at you in disbelief. 

[TBR]

You cannot say "never." Maybe it hasn't been since the late '70s, but you simply can't say never. Not when the Imperial was in it's heyday, or even earlier than that.

I have always thought of the Imperial line as a separate brand.

[TBR]

My point is that you're taking a product that has essentially copied its competitors style and made it big by underpricing them and all of a sudden that makes them "prestigious"? 

For crying out loud, Mercedes-Benz was the brand that brought us the first modern automobile (I won't talk about their history or other numerous (unchallenged) achievements). What did Lexus give us? Reliable cars with good value? Mercedes slipped in the mid 1990s, call it a bad day in their history. Up to that point, their cars were known for reliability and durability. Nobody who bought a Mercedes in the old days gave a rats ass about value - they knew they were buying one of the best-made cars on the market. Paying the high price for the car and options was an "investment" in other words. And now, Mercedes has come back. Quality reports in Europe show that MB quality is on the rise once again.



Yeah, I already figured that that is the issue. Americans don't know about the history and achievements of BMW, Audi, Mercedes or Citroen or Skoda etc. Tell them about the Mercedes-Benz motorsport achievements and they will stare at you in disbelief. 

One could easily argue that Cadillac made the first modern automobile in that they were the first ones to use the now standardized control layout.

[ChrisV]

I have always thought of the Imperial line as a separate brand.

it was the top trim level from the '20s until the late '50s, then a separate brand (like Lexus was for Toyota) for a number of years. But during that time, the Chrysler Newport and New Yorker were true luxury cars, as well. The point is, Chrysler may not have the image now of a luxury marque (it really fell off in the late '70s), but you simply can't say it never was.

[omicron]

Yes, Chrysler was quite the brand back in the day. Much of Chrysler's sales literature right through the '70s combined regular Chryslers with Imperials, and there is even the odd reference to 'Chrysler Imperial' depending on where you look.

[ifcar]

My point is that you're taking a product that has essentially copied its competitors style and made it big by underpricing them and all of a sudden that makes them "prestigious"? 

Not automatically. Pulling it off well enough to be credible clearly does, though.

For crying out loud, Mercedes-Benz was the brand that brought us the first modern automobile (I won't talk about their history or other numerous (unchallenged) achievements). What did Lexus give us? Reliable cars with good value? Mercedes slipped in the mid 1990s, call it a bad day in their history. Up to that point, their cars were known for reliability and durability. Nobody who bought a Mercedes in the old days gave a rats ass about value - they knew they were buying one of the best-made cars on the market. Paying the high price for the car and options was an "investment" in other words. And now, Mercedes has come back. Quality reports in Europe show that MB quality is on the rise once again.

I thought only the past matters?

Yeah, I already figured that that is the issue. Americans don't know about the history and achievements of BMW, Audi, Mercedes or Citroen or Skoda etc. Tell them about the Mercedes-Benz motorsport achievements and they will stare at you in disbelief. 

People buy cars. Not histories. I have no idea if the opinion of one Mercedes fan speaks for Europe, but if you do then I guess you're just refusing to accept a cultural difference.

Are you familiar with "what have you done for me lately?"

[ChrisV]

People buy cars. Not histories.

Actually, a lot of customers DO buy histories. They buy and are fans of certain brands due to those histories. And those enthusiast fans very often spur many non-enthusiasts to buy those brands.

I mean, look at much of Mercedes and Porsche advertising over the years, trading on their rich heritage. Ferrari as well.

[Galaxy]

Actually, a lot of customers DO buy histories. They buy and are fans of certain brands due to those histories. And those enthusiast fans very often spur many non-enthusiasts to buy those brands.

I mean, look at much of Mercedes and Porsche advertising over the years, trading on their rich heritage. Ferrari as well.

Correct. I would say that history is helpful for prestige but one can have prestige without history if the product warrents it.

[Tave]

Obviously Americans care about Mercedes, BMW, Audi, et al.

What we don't care about is the latest Autolies insult, CR article, or individual imaginary "prestige-o-meter" that Wimmer desperately wants us all to synchronize.

Are we just going to give Lexus an equal footing in terms of brand prestige for what they have done in the US only?

I don't know what that means. Is there some scoreboard that no one told me about--register with CarSPIN and receive a seat on the Automobile Prestige Committee?

[ifcar]

Actually, a lot of customers DO buy histories. They buy and are fans of certain brands due to those histories. And those enthusiast fans very often spur many non-enthusiasts to buy those brands.

I mean, look at much of Mercedes and Porsche advertising over the years, trading on their rich heritage. Ferrari as well.

Some do, but I doubt if you asked 100 MB owners why they bought their car more than five would say "because it has heritage." If that many.

I'd say that's even the minority among enthusiasts these days, beyond a handful car lines like Mustang.

[ifcar]

Correct. I would say that history is helpful for prestige but one can have prestige without history if the product warrents it.

I'd agree with that, but history only as far as positive name recognition.