Here goes...

[Raza]

I read that the manual in the Legacy was dreadful.

Not really.  It's the same as in the WRX, and it's not bad.  High catch, which the short throw shifter, it's pretty good.  The standard one is a little long and lanky.  It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Nope, Audi doesn't either.

I actualy love Audi shifters.  They're a little rubbery and vague, but they're really easy to drive and a pleasure to use.  The only manual that I really hated was the xB's.  It was terrible.  First missed shift ever.

You need to try out a few more econocars.  

True.  I'm driving a Civic this weekend.  

[SJ_GTI]

I read that the manual in the Legacy was dreadful.

Not really.  It's the same as in the WRX, and it's not bad.  High catch, which the short throw shifter, it's pretty good.  The standard one is a little long and lanky.  It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Nope, Audi doesn't either.

I actualy love Audi shifters.  They're a little rubbery and vague, but they're really easy to drive and a pleasure to use.  The only manual that I really hated was the xB's.  It was terrible.  First missed shift ever.

You need to try out a few more econocars.  

Yeah seriously.

An A4 shifter vague...that makes no sense compared to 99% of manuals on the market. The only company with better manuals is BMW and Honda (edit: that I have driven).

Not that Audi actually makes their manuals. In all liklihood its the same company that sources BMW manuals.

[SJ_GTI]

My shifter is no more vague than the 3er.

Its more notchy, and the clutch is a little tricker, but the shift action is great.

I will put your views on the Legacy interior as mass halucination. Its interior is worse tha a Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6, or Nissan Altima which have all been criticised. Its certainly not on par with even a G35, which is about bottom wrung for this class, and nowhere near a 325i.

Silver painted plastic does not make an interior good.

The 3ers is definitely more precise than the TTs, and I can only imagine the TT uses the same shifter as the A4...

How the heck can you conclude that. The TT is on the FWD Golf platform, the A4 uses the same chassis as the A6, S4, RS4, RS6, blah blah blah. They are not even close.

[Raza]

I read that the manual in the Legacy was dreadful.

Not really.  It's the same as in the WRX, and it's not bad.  High catch, which the short throw shifter, it's pretty good.  The standard one is a little long and lanky.  It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Nope, Audi doesn't either.

I actualy love Audi shifters.  They're a little rubbery and vague, but they're really easy to drive and a pleasure to use.  The only manual that I really hated was the xB's.  It was terrible.  First missed shift ever.

You need to try out a few more econocars.  

Yeah seriously.

An A4 shifter vague...that makes no sense compared to 99% of manuals on the market. The only company with better manuals is BMW and Honda.

Not that Audi actually makes their manuals. In all liklihood its the same company that sources BMW manuals.

To my knowledge, BMW specifies the design of ZF manuals.  

And what's the point of comparing filet mignon and 80% lean ground beef?  Yes, the Audi shifter is vague and rubbery.  More rubbery than vague, but it is.

[Raza]

My shifter is no more vague than the 3er.

Its more notchy, and the clutch is a little tricker, but the shift action is great.

I will put your views on the Legacy interior as mass halucination. Its interior is worse tha a Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6, or Nissan Altima which have all been criticised. Its certainly not on par with even a G35, which is about bottom wrung for this class, and nowhere near a 325i.

Silver painted plastic does not make an interior good.

The 3ers is definitely more precise than the TTs, and I can only imagine the TT uses the same shifter as the A4...

How the heck can you conclude that. The TT is on the FWD Golf platform, the A4 uses the same chassis as the A6, S4, RS4, RS6, blah blah blah. They are not even close.

Same engine, both are AWD Audis...I imagine it's the same stick.  

[SJ_GTI]

My shifter is no more vague than the 3er.

Its more notchy, and the clutch is a little tricker, but the shift action is great.

I will put your views on the Legacy interior as mass halucination. Its interior is worse tha a Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6, or Nissan Altima which have all been criticised. Its certainly not on par with even a G35, which is about bottom wrung for this class, and nowhere near a 325i.

Silver painted plastic does not make an interior good.

The 3ers is definitely more precise than the TTs, and I can only imagine the TT uses the same shifter as the A4...

How the heck can you conclude that. The TT is on the FWD Golf platform, the A4 uses the same chassis as the A6, S4, RS4, RS6, blah blah blah. They are not even close.

Same engine, both are AWD Audis...I imagine it's the same stick.

No, they are not even close to being the same setup. One has a transverse engine layout with a haldex AWD system, one has a longitudinal engine layout with a torsen differential.

C'mon you drive a Passat surely you should know this. Mechanically an A4 is closer to an A8 or Bentley GT than a TT.

[ifcar]

I read that the manual in the Legacy was dreadful.

Not really.  It's the same as in the WRX, and it's not bad.  High catch, which the short throw shifter, it's pretty good.  The standard one is a little long and lanky.  It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Nope, Audi doesn't either.

I actualy love Audi shifters.  They're a little rubbery and vague, but they're really easy to drive and a pleasure to use.  The only manual that I really hated was the xB's.  It was terrible.  First missed shift ever.

You need to try out a few more econocars.  

True.  I'm driving a Civic this weekend.

That should be interesting, it should give you some insight as to what the average cheap car is like, albeit with better (though not great) handling.  

[SJ_GTI]

I read that the manual in the Legacy was dreadful.

Not really.  It's the same as in the WRX, and it's not bad.  High catch, which the short throw shifter, it's pretty good.  The standard one is a little long and lanky.  It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Nope, Audi doesn't either.

I actualy love Audi shifters.  They're a little rubbery and vague, but they're really easy to drive and a pleasure to use.  The only manual that I really hated was the xB's.  It was terrible.  First missed shift ever.

You need to try out a few more econocars.  

Yeah seriously.

An A4 shifter vague...that makes no sense compared to 99% of manuals on the market. The only company with better manuals is BMW and Honda.

Not that Audi actually makes their manuals. In all liklihood its the same company that sources BMW manuals.

To my knowledge, BMW specifies the design of ZF manuals.  

And what's the point of comparing filet mignon and 80% lean ground beef?  Yes, the Audi shifter is vague and rubbery.  More rubbery than vague, but it is.

Okay I give up.

And just FYI Getrag makes BMW manuals.

[Raza]

I read that the manual in the Legacy was dreadful.

Not really.  It's the same as in the WRX, and it's not bad.  High catch, which the short throw shifter, it's pretty good.  The standard one is a little long and lanky.  It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Nope, Audi doesn't either.

I actualy love Audi shifters.  They're a little rubbery and vague, but they're really easy to drive and a pleasure to use.  The only manual that I really hated was the xB's.  It was terrible.  First missed shift ever.

You need to try out a few more econocars.  

Yeah seriously.

An A4 shifter vague...that makes no sense compared to 99% of manuals on the market. The only company with better manuals is BMW and Honda.

Not that Audi actually makes their manuals. In all liklihood its the same company that sources BMW manuals.

To my knowledge, BMW specifies the design of ZF manuals.  

And what's the point of comparing filet mignon and 80% lean ground beef?  Yes, the Audi shifter is vague and rubbery.  More rubbery than vague, but it is.

Okay I give up.

And just FYI Getrag makes BMW manuals.

Not recent ones.  Either that or every magazine has been wrong about the 5 and 6 series.

Our six speed manual gearbox conversion package for '92-99 six cylinder e36 cars is developed around BMW's latest transmission; the ZF model GS6-37BZ as used in the e46 330i, Z4 and new 5 series.

Link

[Raza]

My shifter is no more vague than the 3er.

Its more notchy, and the clutch is a little tricker, but the shift action is great.

I will put your views on the Legacy interior as mass halucination. Its interior is worse tha a Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6, or Nissan Altima which have all been criticised. Its certainly not on par with even a G35, which is about bottom wrung for this class, and nowhere near a 325i.

Silver painted plastic does not make an interior good.

The 3ers is definitely more precise than the TTs, and I can only imagine the TT uses the same shifter as the A4...

How the heck can you conclude that. The TT is on the FWD Golf platform, the A4 uses the same chassis as the A6, S4, RS4, RS6, blah blah blah. They are not even close.

Same engine, both are AWD Audis...I imagine it's the same stick.

No, they are not even close to being the same setup. One has a transverse engine layout with a haldex AWD system, one has a longitudinal engine layout with a torsen differential.

C'mon you drive a Passat surely you should know this. Mechanically an A4 is closer to an A8 or Bentley GT than a TT.

Transmissions are flexible.

[TBR]

No, they aren't, a transaxle will not work with a longitudinally mounted engine.

[850CSi]

It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Yeah, but I'm used to the Audi's.

[Raza]

No, they aren't, a transaxle will not work with a longitudinally mounted engine.

My bad then.

But the TT's is a bit rubbery and vague. I can't remember whether I've driven an A4 manual.  I drove an A6 2.7T back in the day, but it was an automatic.

[Raza]

It's not like Audi has a perfect shifter either.

Yeah, but I'm used to the Audi's.

Like I said, I love Audi shifters.  The TT is incredibly easy to drive.

[Lebowski]

I plan on making a very similar decision in about 4 months, for me it'll be between the 325i, the A4 2.0 quattro, and the TSX (I realize the TSX is a rung below the other two, the reason I include it is the extra $5k+ it would leave in my pocket).  Whichever I choose it'll be w/ a manual.

Having not yet driven either the A4 or the 325i yet, I think the Bimmer is my least favorite of the three (taking price into consideration).  Something about the styling doesn't do it for me, I think it's the worst value of the 3, and everyone and their brother has a 3-series.  At this point I think it'll be the A4 or the TSX, and probably the biggest factor in choosing between the two will be the size of my bonus.  But, a test drive in the Bimmer may just be enough to change all that, after all I do prefer RWD.

I'll probably test drive the G35 along with the others, but I agree that I don't like it as well as the 3 mentioned above.  I know, 298hp and RWD look great on paper, but something about the G35's styling, both inside and out, doesn't do it for me.

[SJ_GTI]

Something about the styling doesn't do it for me, I think it's the worst value of the 3, and everyone and their brother has a 3-series.

I could never spend money on a car if I didn't like its looks, I don't care if it drove like a lotus elise.

[Lebowski]

Something about the styling doesn't do it for me, I think it's the worst value of the 3, and everyone and their brother has a 3-series.

I could never spend money on a car if I didn't like its looks, I don't care if it drove like a lotus elise.

Yeah, I agree.  I'm not saying that the 3-series is bad looking ... it just doesn't have the knockout good looks that prior 3-series have had when they first came out.  I remember, when I first saw the E-46 when it was brand new, I thought to myself "WOW!  That looks good!".  When the new one came out, though, the general response seemed to be "well, at least Bangle didn't screw it up".  To me, a highly anticipated new car like that should elicit a more enthusiastic response than "at least they didn't screw it up".

Add to that, when I went to the BMW website and priced the 3-series, the 330i optioned as I wanted it came out to $44k!  And in last month's road and track, they tested both the A4 2.0 quattro and the 330 (not the 325, the 330) in the same issue, and the A4 matched its quarter mile and trailed by 0.2 seconds to 60.  I'm not saying speed is everything, but if the A4 2.0 can hang w/ the 330, looks better, has a nicer interior, and is $10k less to boot, to me that's a pretty good package.

[Colonel Cadillac]

I have to admit, when I first saw the E90 330i, I thought, "WOW, that looks GOOD!"

[Raghavan]

I have to admit, when I first saw the E90 330i, I thought, "WOW, that looks GOOD!"

me too.

[850CSi]

And in last month's road and track, they tested both the A4 2.0 quattro and the 330 (not the 325, the 330) in the same issue, and the A4 matched its quarter mile and trailed by 0.2 seconds to 60.  I'm not saying speed is everything, but if the A4 2.0 can hang w/ the 330, looks better, has a nicer interior, and is $10k less to boot, to me that's a pretty good package.

I don't care WHAT R&T says or has observed, an A4 2.0T doesn't stand a CHANCE against a 330i.

Either their A4 was on steroids or something was wrong with the 330 they tested, because the numbers don't add up.

[850CSi]

I have to admit, when I first saw the E90 330i, I thought, "WOW, that looks GOOD!"

I initially thought the front was butt-ugly because BMW's pictures suck. In person, it's better looking than the E46 in every way.

[850CSi]

The new A4 is also a LOT better-looking than the model it replaces. Come to think of it, It looks even better than mine.

[Raza]

I have to admit, when I first saw the E90 330i, I thought, "WOW, that looks GOOD!"

I initially thought the front was butt-ugly because BMW's pictures suck. In person, it's better looking than the E46 in every way.

 

[850CSi]

I have to admit, when I first saw the E90 330i, I thought, "WOW, that looks GOOD!"

I initially thought the front was butt-ugly because BMW's pictures suck. In person, it's better looking than the E46 in every way.

You were the one who always criticized the E46's ill-proportioned rear on the sedan...

[Raza]

I have to admit, when I first saw the E90 330i, I thought, "WOW, that looks GOOD!"

I initially thought the front was butt-ugly because BMW's pictures suck. In person, it's better looking than the E46 in every way.

You were the one who always criticized the E46's ill-proportioned rear on the sedan...

Was I?  

Oh.  

Still looked better than the new one.

What happened to the small car?

[SJ_GTI]

The new A4 is also a LOT better-looking than the model it replaces. Come to think of it, It looks even better than mine.

Screw you hippie!

[Raza]

The new A4 is also a LOT better-looking than the model it replaces. Come to think of it, It looks even better than mine.

Screw you hippie!

Yours looks better than his, if it makes you feel any better.

[SJ_GTI]

The new A4 is also a LOT better-looking than the model it replaces. Come to think of it, It looks even better than mine.

Screw you hippie!

Yours looks better than his, if it makes you feel any better.

That does make me feel better in fact.  

:D  

[850CSi]

I have to admit, when I first saw the E90 330i, I thought, "WOW, that looks GOOD!"

I initially thought the front was butt-ugly because BMW's pictures suck. In person, it's better looking than the E46 in every way.

You were the one who always criticized the E46's ill-proportioned rear on the sedan...

Was I?  

Oh.  

Still looked better than the new one.

What happened to the small car?

Yeah, the E90 does look a bit bigger than I'd like, even though it barely grew.

[850CSi]

The new A4 is also a LOT better-looking than the model it replaces. Come to think of it, It looks even better than mine.

Screw you hippie!

The B6 is better than its predecessor in every way but looks, where the B5 kills it IMO. Then again, my sport-package A4 with bright paint looks a lot better than most B5s.