Edmunds Mustang vs Camaro vs Challenger

[SVT666]

The current mustang was headed up by a vietnamese guy.

That doesn't mean Asians buy it.  It was tongue-in-cheek anyway.

[ChrisV]

No one's questioned the driving credentials of the hodge podge that is the Solstice.  It's a legitimately good car.  But in terms of livability, it sucks compared to the Miata.

Well, most people looking at sports cars aren't concerned with daily driving, as they are looking at fun second (or even third) cars. Same for the people with street rods and customs, or who restore classic cars.

[NomisR]

Well, most people looking at sports cars aren't concerned with daily driving, as they are looking at fun second (or even third) cars. Same for the people with street rods and customs, or who restore classic cars.

True, but then you have a car like a Miata which is actually liveable as a daily driver too.  The sad part is, the Solstice has less trunk space than majority of the cars out there, even exotics when the top is down.  I mean, 2CF?  Even 4's small.

[SVT666]

True, but then you have a car like a Miata which is actually liveable as a daily driver too.  The sad part is, the Solstice has less trunk space than majority of the cars out there, even exotics when the top is down.  I mean, 2CF?  Even 4's small.

My subwoofer box is almost 2 cu.ft.

[NomisR]

My subwoofer box is almost 2 cu.ft.

Exactly!  A car with small trunk space is one thing, but even sports car should be able to carry enough for weekend trips.

[sandertheshark]

Asians buy muscle cars?

Japan imports 1960s American cars by the boatload.

In high school I had a Japanese girlfriend who drove a '69 Camaro RS.  Okay, I dated her for her car.

[Raza]

No matter the finishing spot, the Challenger is still the car I want most out of all those.  I mean, you can change the tires and do aftermarket stuff to the suspension, but the Mustang and Camaro will never look that good.

The pedal handbrake is a source of annoyance though. 

[565]

yet its having an on and off again love affair with the chopping block while the miata will live on. 

It's fate is because GM loses money with each Solstice made.  It's presence was mainly to inject excitement into the two brands most lacking in excitement, Pontiac and Saturn.  Now it seems like excitement isn't as important as economy, so GM is trying to shift that way, while trying to stay alive of course.

[565]

Asians buy muscle cars?

Yes but it takes alot of effort.  We aren't manly enough to shift those beefy transmissions.  I use two hands in the Z06 and occasionally ask my girlfriend to give me a hand.  

[Raza]

Exactly!  A car with small trunk space is one thing, but even sports car should be able to carry enough for weekend trips.

And don't forget the complicated manual top.  For neurotic, paranoid psychopaths like me who have to put the top up every time they park the car, a multi-stage, in-out-in-out again, affair for the top is a ridiculous hassle.  The MX-5's manual top is easily operated from the driver's seat, for opening and closing. 

And you're exactly right about the weekend trip's worth of luggage, which is another reason I hate two place hard top roadsters.  There's romance to a soft top sports car, and part of that implies that you're going to take someone somewhere that others are not welcome (which is why you have a two place and not a minivan), and it would be nice to have clothes to wear when you pop out and get condoms (or whatever).  I love the second generation SLK's looks, but if I have to choose between putting the top down and clean boxers, there's a flaw in the design. 

[GoCougs]

Well those numbers (30K-50K) are about what the last f-body sold or less and it was unsustainable then with a decades old bought and paid for chassis.

We do not know that at all.

The mustang having sold at least 400K copies with the chassis is probably in the black a long time ago.  Plus it shared a floor pan with the S-type/LS so the mustang is not a ground up chassis built for a single model.

We do not know this either.

The D2C chassis the Mustang is currently built is a Mustang-only. It is loosely based on the DEW chassis that underpinned the T-bird, LS and S-type, but it shares relatively little as you note - no subframe, no suspension, etc. The Zeta however shares o' plenty across its various, including these major items.

As a mustang fan, I am glad that Ford may be forced to finally up the hp and produce a 400 hp mustang GT.  However, they sold fine being handily beaten by LS1s, like the last time GM put together a pony car that lacks female appeal and had poor ergonomic design but plenty of power.

Perhaps, but there have already been 6,000 pre-ordered Camaros.

[Sigma Projects]

I think the new Camaro appeals on a much broader scope than the last one ever did. Plus this time around you can get a V6 with an RS package and get a really fun car with the cool headlights. I can't remember the last time any muscle car had a base model alternative that was actually interesting. They were all lame ducks. For how many they'll sell I'd be more focus on how well the V6 model would sell, not the SS. I mean typical owners of mustangs aren't V8 owners they're V6 owners and at the price point what else offers the same kind of experience? And the 3.6L makes nice power with simple aftermarket options which most owners will do, you know, exhaust/intake, nothing fancy that won't void their warranty.

I think a more interesting camparo would be all the base models.

[SVT666]

I think the new Camaro appeals on a much broader scope than the last one ever did.

What makes you say that?  It might appeal to people, but once half the potential buyers sit in it and they find out they can't see out of it, they'll go buy a Mustang.

Plus this time around you can get a V6 with an RS package and get a really fun car with the cool headlights. I can't remember the last time any muscle car had a base model alternative that was actually interesting. They were all lame ducks. For how many they'll sell I'd be more focus on how well the V6 model would sell, not the SS. I mean typical owners of mustangs aren't V8 owners they're V6 owners and at the price point what else offers the same kind of experience? And the 3.6L makes nice power with simple aftermarket options which most owners will do, you know, exhaust/intake, nothing fancy that won't void their warranty.

Actually most owners leave their cars stock.

I think a more interesting camparo would be all the base models.

Why would that be even remotely interesting?  The Mustang and Challenger would get thoroughly trounced, whereas with this test, there was at least some competitiveness.

[ChrisV]

Exactly!  A car with small trunk space is one thing, but even sports car should be able to carry enough for weekend trips.

I've never EVER put "enough for a weekend trip" in any of my sports cars. And 99% of the people I've known with sports cars never do or did, either. Yeah, some people do with the Miata, but the fact that the Solstice/Sky sold as well shows that just as many people don't care. And how many people carry lots of luggage in their Ferraris and Lamborghinis?

[Raza]

I've never EVER put "enough for a weekend trip" in any of my sports cars. And 99% of the people I've known with sports cars never do or did, either. Yeah, some people do with the Miata, but the fact that the Solstice/Sky sold as well shows that just as many people don't care. And how many people carry lots of luggage in their Ferraris and Lamborghinis?

I have.  And I've also taken my sports car to a wholesale warehouse and had a place to put everything I bought.  It was nice. 

[565]

I have.  And I've also taken my sports car to a wholesale warehouse and had a place to put everything I bought.  It was nice. 

I managed to stuff two friends into the trunk of my car.  Though I admit buying a 2+2 is a more elegant solution.

[Raza]

I managed to stuff two friends into the trunk of my car.  Though I admit buying a 2+2 is a more elegant solution.

Into the Z06?  That's the hardtop Corvette without the hatch, right?

Were your friends pureed at the time!?

[Vinsanity]

Wasn't pitiful trunk space the main reason the MR2 spyder didn't sell well?

[565]

Into the Z06?  That's the hardtop Corvette without the hatch, right?

Were your friends pureed at the time!?

No they lived.  They went through the cabin.  There actually is this rather large shelf area under the rear glass before the actual trunk space.  They sort of put their bodies on the shelf area and leg their legs dangle down into the trunk.

Actually I think if you fiddled with the seating placement you could fit a set of very small rear seats back there, kind of like how the FD RX-7 was a 2+2 in Japan.

[Raza]

Wasn't pitiful trunk space the main reason the MR2 spyder didn't sell well?

It was definitely one of the main reasons.  It was faster and sharper than the MX-5 (though clearly not better looking), and should have been a success.  It was a cut rate Boxster that was light (just 200 pounds more than an Elise is today) and cheap (in more than sticker price, admittedly) and was a hell of a ride out of the box. 

It was mid-engined.  The Solstice/Sky really doesn't have much of an excuse.  And on top of that, the MR-2 had a front trunk that was comparable to the Solstice if you removed the doughnut and cubbies behind the seats.  I don't think it was that bad.

And thank you for reminding me of the MR-2. Because it's a Toyota, I keep forgetting about it.  I need to check used prices on those...

[Vinsanity]

And thank you for reminding me of the MR-2. Because it's a Toyota, I keep forgetting about it.  I need to check used prices on those...

heh, you're welcome (I guess), but one of my brothers found them to have held their value quite well when he was shopping for a car about 3 years ago. The decent (non-salvage-title) examples were running just $2000-$3000 cheaper than the S2000 he eventually ended up buying.

They'll be cheaper now for sure, but I don't know exactly how cheap compared to other early-2000's sports cars.

[MrH]

heh, you're welcome (I guess), but one of my brothers found them to have held their value quite well when he was shopping for a car about 3 years ago. The decent (non-salvage-title) examples were running just $2000-$3000 cheaper than the S2000 he eventually ended up buying.

They'll be cheaper now for sure, but I don't know exactly how cheap compared to other early-2000's sports cars.

Yeah, I was just looking at them.  S2000's aren't much more, but I think they're better looking, much faster, and more practical.

[SVT32V]

That doesn't mean Asians buy it.  It was tongue-in-cheek anyway.

I found it interesting that he understood what a mustang was about much more than many 'mericuns.

[Laconian]

heh, you're welcome (I guess), but one of my brothers found them to have held their value quite well when he was shopping for a car about 3 years ago. The decent (non-salvage-title) examples were running just $2000-$3000 cheaper than the S2000 he eventually ended up buying.

They'll be cheaper now for sure, but I don't know exactly how cheap compared to other early-2000's sports cars.

About 10-15% more expensive than a Miata in similar condition, and about 20% less than a comparable S2000.

[Laconian]

No they lived.  They went through the cabin.  There actually is this rather large shelf area under the rear glass before the actual trunk space.  They sort of put their bodies on the shelf area and leg their legs dangle down into the trunk.

Actually I think if you fiddled with the seating placement you could fit a set of very small rear seats back there, kind of like how the FD RX-7 was a 2+2 in Japan.

Oh yes, that brings back old memories of riding in my friend's parents' 3000GT VR-4. Not good times, even their Ranger's jumpseat was more comfortable than that!

[SVT666]

I found it interesting that he understood what a mustang was about much more than many 'mericuns.

He is American.  He wasn't even 8 years old when his family emigrated, so for all intents and purposes, he's American.

[NomisR]

I've never EVER put "enough for a weekend trip" in any of my sports cars. And 99% of the people I've known with sports cars never do or did, either. Yeah, some people do with the Miata, but the fact that the Solstice/Sky sold as well shows that just as many people don't care. And how many people carry lots of luggage in their Ferraris and Lamborghinis?

You don't need a lot of bags, just one or 2 duffle for a weekend.  But at 2 CF, it'll be difficult to do that.  Considering the Kappas are larger yet have a smaller trunk than my Lotus with the top down.  Or less useable space even with the top up, it's a pretty poor excuse. 

And the fact that it sells well doesn't mean much because people usually don't put that into consideration until after they buy the car and take it home.  Car purchases are typically purchase of passion anyways especially for sports car so they're usually afterthoughts.

[ChrisV]

I'd bet more than one of those buyers has, surprise, more than one car.

Again, I've never needed to put stuff in the back of any sports car or GT I've ever had, even the ones with hatchbacks. Seriously, how often is it just you and nothing else in your car? I mean, you have a Lotus. I couldn't take my family anywhere in that Lotus. Is it a stupid car to have on the market because *I* need seating for 3 or more? Why we have to require cars to do things well out of their design intent in order to be considerd a viable product is beyond me.

[Vinsanity]

One time I made the mistake of taking my brother with me in the S2000 to buy Rock Band for the PS3. The box wouldn't fit in the trunk. We had to take it apart, put the drum kit in the trunk, and my brother had to hold on to the guitar kit in the passenger seat. I used the S2000's trunk every bit as much as I use the Caddy's, which is to say quite often. How else would you bring home groceries?

[NomisR]

I'd bet more than one of those buyers has, surprise, more than one car.

Again, I've never needed to put stuff in the back of any sports car or GT I've ever had, even the ones with hatchbacks. Seriously, how often is it just you and nothing else in your car? I mean, you have a Lotus. I couldn't take my family anywhere in that Lotus. Is it a stupid car to have on the market because *I* need seating for 3 or more? Why we have to require cars to do things well out of their design intent in order to be considerd a viable product is beyond me.

Oh c'mon, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Regardless, the trunk is small.  Again, if people want to use it for a weekend getaway up the PCH, it would be difficult because they cannot fit too much stuff in the trunk.  Yeah, most people probably have other cars but that's not the point.  I was saying my trunk is small enough as is but if I want to take a road trip w/ my gf, I can, I can at least put in more stuff than the Kappas because it's shaped better and it's actually bigger. 

Look at this?  Does this look like a good idea to you?