C&D: Camaro LT vs. Genesis Coupe 3.8

[Vinsanity]

Yeah, as with any new design, I'd probably wait an extra model year or three for the bugs to be sorted out.

That is, if they'll still make Camaros three model years from now

[omicron]

What sort of fuel-consumption figures are we looking at for the V6 Camaro? In other words, how quickly should Holden be putting this engine into the similarly-sized Commodore?

[the Teuton]

What sort of fuel-consumption figures are we looking at for the V6 Camaro? In other words, how quickly should Holden be putting this engine into the similarly-sized Commodore?

Doesn't Holden already sell it in a Commodore, albeit not direct injected?

[GoCougs]

What sort of fuel-consumption figures are we looking at for the V6 Camaro? In other words, how quickly should Holden be putting this engine into the similarly-sized Commodore?

V6:
17/29 for 6sp MT
18/29 for 6sp AT

V8:
16/24 for 6sp MT
16/25 for 6sp AT

[SVT666]

Sorry, dude. but you're beyond delusional. Seriously, you need to get a grip:

'92 Z28 a little cheaper but a little slower than '92 Mustang GT:
1992 Mustang GT: $18,315, 14.7 sec 1/4 mile
1992 Camaro Z28: $18,207, 15.0 sec 1/4 mile

That's not the IROC-Z and I stated 1980s.  These numbers are from October 1986 Road & Track.
1986 Camaro IROC-Z L98 = $18,179
1986 Mustang GT = $12,548

'99 Camaro SS both a little cheaper and a little faster than '99 Mustang Cobra:
1999 Mustang Cobra: $28,190, 14.1 sec 1/4 mile
1999 Camaro SS: $27,466, 13.9 sec 1/4 mile

I assumed the Camaro SS and the Trans Am WS6 would have been the same price, but I will admit I was mistaken.  The T/A WS6 was $34K.

[Eye of the Tiger]

V6:
17/29 for 6sp MT
18/29 for 6sp AT

V8:
16/24 for 6sp MT
16/25 for 6sp AT

29 highway is damn good. I already know which one I want. Base LS, no options, black. $23,040




On the V8, you can also opt for Active Fuel Management for a minor penalty in hp. Not sure what the numbers are exactly.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

29 highway is damn good. I already know which one I want. Base LS, no options, black. $23,040




On the V8, you can also opt for Active Fuel Management for a minor penalty in hp. Not sure what the numbers are exactly.

AFM only comes on the (400hp) auto.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I assumed the Camaro SS and the Trans Am WS6 would have been the same price, but I will admit I was mistaken.  The T/A WS6 was $34K.

The TA was always more expensive than the Formula. The Formula was the model that paralled the Camaro price wise.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

That's not the IROC-Z and I stated 1980s.  These numbers are from October 1986 Road & Track.
1986 Camaro IROC-Z L98 = $18,179
1986 Mustang GT = $12,548

The 1992 Z28 was still the same body style that the '86 IROC had. GM had backed out of the International Race Of Champions by then. The new (LT1) Z28 came in 1993.

[the Teuton]

The Formula was a stripper for the most part.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The Formula was a stripper for the most part.

The TA was just loaded! 

[SVT666]

The 1992 Z28 was still the same body style that the '86 IROC had. GM had backed out of the International Race Of Champions by then. The new (LT1) Z28 came in 1993.

However, I was talking about 1986 pony wars, not the early 90s.  In the mid to late 80s, the IROC-Z was 50% more expensive then the Mustang GT.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

In the mid to late 80s, the IROC-Z was 50% more expensive then the Mustang GT.

True dat!

[the Teuton]

The TA was just loaded! 

My friend's Firebird Formula V8 (no mention of Trans Am anywhere on the car) had an automatic transmission, AC, T-tops, and power windows.  That was pretty much it.

It also had ugly, terribly bolstered mouse fur cloth seats.  The TA was much nicer.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The TA had radio buttons on the steering wheel,special seats,the big wing (verts got the same wing as the Formula),etc. 

[GoCougs]

That's not the IROC-Z and I stated 1980s.  These numbers are from October 1986 Road & Track.
1986 Camaro IROC-Z L98 = $18,179
1986 Mustang GT = $12,548
I assumed the Camaro SS and the Trans Am WS6 would have been the same price, but I will admit I was mistaken.  The T/A WS6 was $34K.

So you're saying the Mustang GT's price ballooned 50% in 6 years, yet the top Camaro over that time (IROC in '86, Z28 in '92) stayed about the same? What pray tell is the deal?

I chose that '92 comparison because not only are the cars essentially identical to the late '80s models ('86 isn't 'late' BTW) the two cars were somewhat similarly equipped. You're still out of whack if you still feel that when equally equipped that any Camaro of any vintage is/was 50% more.

Why you cling to this irrationality despite being shown all sorts of evidence to the contrary is close to becoming Internet legend. Forgetting evidence, ask yourself this, Would GM have sold so many IROCs and Trans-Ams if similarly equipped the were really 50% more than a Mustang GT???

[SVT666]

So you're saying the Mustang GT's price ballooned 50% in 6 years, yet the top Camaro over that time (IROC in '86, Z28 in '92) stayed about the same? What pray tell is the deal?

That's exactly what happened.  Though I'm not sure if the Z28 and the IROC-Z were essentially the same car or not.

I chose that '92 comparison because not only are the cars essentially identical to the late '80s models ('86 isn't 'late' BTW) the two cars were somewhat similarly equipped. You're still out of whack if you still feel that when equally equipped that any Camaro of any vintage is/was 50% more.

Where the fuck did I say Camaros were always 50% more in price?  I used two examples of when the top of the line Camaro was substantially more expensive then Mustang GT as an example of why the price difference between the current SS and GT500 means dick.  You're really thick aren't you?

Why you cling to this irrationality despite being shown all sorts of evidence to the contrary is close to becoming Internet legend. Forgetting evidence, ask yourself this, Would GM have sold so many IROCs and Trans-Ams if similarly equipped the were really 50% more than a Mustang GT???

Well, since the Mustang GT outsold the Firebird and Camaros combined by a factor of 2:1, they didn't sell as many as you think.

[GoCougs]

That's exactly what happened.  Though I'm not sure if the Z28 and the IROC-Z were essentially the same car or not.

No, of course the Mustang didn't jump 50% in price whilst the IROC/Z-28 stayed about the same. (And yes, the IROC-Z and Z28 were the same car.)

Where the fuck did I say Camaros were always 50% more in price?  I used two examples of when the top of the line Camaro was substantially more expensive then Mustang GT as an example of why the price difference between the current SS and GT500 means dick.  You're really thick aren't you?

Don't divert or deflect, please - I plainly stated "ANY" not "ALL." Once again. NO Camaro, of ANY vintage, when similarly equipped, was 50% more than the Mustang.

Well, since the Mustang GT outsold the Firebird and Camaros combined by a factor of 2:1, they didn't sell as many as you think.

False. Often-ignored fact by Mustang fanboys, it is objective reality that the Camaro+Firebird outsold the Mustang+Capri in total between 1967 and 2002 (the years the GM F-body was produced). Shocking, but true.

[the Teuton]

False. Often-ignored fact by Mustang fanboys, it is objective reality that the Camaro+Firebird outsold the Mustang+Capri in total between 1967 and 2002 (the years the GM F-body was produced). Shocking, but true.

I know this ^^^, but I have to ask:  Why did GM decide to kill the Camaro instead of give it the redesign it deserved after 10 model years on the market?

[GoCougs]

I know this ^^^, but I have to ask:  Why did GM decide to kill the Camaro instead of give it the redesign it deserved after 10 model years on the market?

From about 1997+ the F-body essentially had a sales collapse, getting beat from 2:1 to as bad as 4:1 against the Mustang. I surmise that GM as a result chose to plow development dollars into trucks and SUVs, but that's only a guess.

[MX793]

The TA was always more expensive than the Formula. The Formula was the model that paralled the Camaro price wise.

I thought that the Formula was the Firebird equivalent of the Z28 and the TA was the equivalent of the SS on the 3-tier trim scheme (with the V6 being the lowest tier trim).

[the Teuton]

I thought that the Formula was the Firebird equivalent of the Z28 and the TA was the equivalent of the SS on the 3-tier trim scheme (with the V6 being the lowest tier trim).

No.

There was:

Firebird
Firebird Formula
Trans Am
Trans Am WS6
Firehawk

It confuses me, too.

[GoCougs]

I thought that the Formula was the Firebird equivalent of the Z28 and the TA was the equivalent of the SS on the 3-tier trim scheme (with the V6 being the lowest tier trim).

WRT the 4th gen, the WS6 was analogous to the SS and the Trans Am was analgous to the Z28.

The 4th gen Formula was analogous to the RS in previous Camaro generations in that it was a stripped V8 version. However the 4th gen Camaro didn't have an RS model (i.e., stripped V8), so as such the 4th gen Formula had no Camaro equivalent.

[Raza]

V6:
17/29 for 6sp MT
18/29 for 6sp AT

V8:
16/24 for 6sp MT
16/25 for 6sp AT

Jeez; if the Camaro weren't so fuck ugly, I'd love a V6 6MT.  Wait, the convertibles aren't that bad, right?  They probably lose an MPG or two, but that's not bad. 

[MX793]

Jeez; if the Camaro weren't so fuck ugly, I'd love a V6 6MT.  Wait, the convertibles aren't that bad, right?  They probably lose an MPG or two, but that's not bad. 

If they ever make the convertible.  Pretty sure it got put on hold indefinately.

[Raza]

If they ever make the convertible.  Pretty sure it got put on hold indefinately.

Forget that then.  I'll just search the classifieds for Sonic Blue 05 GT 5MT convertibles and save money. 

Why bother putting out a product if you can't afford to?  It's like Nissan and the GT-R.  You can buy one, you just can't drive it, or you'll void your warranty. 

[MX793]

WRT the 4th gen, the WS6 was analogous to the SS and the Trans Am was analgous to the Z28.

The 4th gen Formula was analogous to the RS in previous Camaro generations in that it was a stripped V8 version. However the 4th gen Camaro didn't have an RS model (i.e., stripped V8), so as such the 4th gen Formula had no Camaro equivalent.

There was an RS 4th gen car, it was an appearance/GFX package offered on the V6 model.  Same as the 3rd gen RS Camaro (I think the 5.0 V8 might have been optional on the 3rd gen RS).

[MX793]

Forget that then.  I'll just search the classifieds for Sonic Blue 05 GT 5MT convertibles and save money. 

Why bother putting out a product if you can't afford to?

A lot has changed since GM first announced the 2010 Camaro back in 1993.

[Raza]

A lot has changed since GM first announced the 2010 Camaro back in 1993.

Well, you can't juggle with one hand tied behind your back.  I don't think this Camaro will be on the market long. 

[the Teuton]

I haven't seen one on the road yet.  Same with the 2010 Mustang.  I have seen a few SRT-8 Challengers, though.