Porsche Cayenne? With a 2.0L I4? Only if you BUILD YOUR DREAMS!

[ifcar]

Korea has an amazing industrial sector.  Hyundai owns just about everything, and they've been good at doing just about everything.  They didn't understand the Western car market, so they had to play some catch up.  But once they figured out the formula is when they started making cars good enough that they could confidently tack a 10-year warranty onto them.

They've got strong technology and industry now. But to compare this to China's current auto market, we're talking about Korea in the early 1980s -- just before the first Korean automobiles appeared in the US.

What was Korean industry and technology like in 1983?

[2o6]

Korea has an amazing industrial sector.  Hyundai owns just about everything, and they've been good at doing just about everything.  They didn't understand the Western car market, so they had to play some catch up.  But once they figured out the formula is when they started making cars good enough that they could confidently tack a 10-year warranty onto them.

The Chinese are in the same situation, but are quickly catching up. For example: The Brilliance BS4. The crash test would be considered very good back in the late 1990's.

[the Teuton]

The Chinese are in the same situation, but are quickly catching up. For example: The Brilliance BS4. The crash test would be considered very good back in the late 1990's.

I'm most surprised about what's the difference between the Isuzu Rodeo and Jiangling Landwind, and if it's really that bad (if they are, indeed, the same car), why were they allowed to sell it in the US?

[ifcar]

I'm most surprised about what's the difference between the Isuzu Rodeo and Jiangling Landwind, and if it's really that bad (if they are, indeed, the same car), why were they allowed to sell it in the US?

There isn't a difference. The first-generation Rodeo/Passport was rated Poor in IIHS testing.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=56

An offset-frontal crash test is not and never has been a requirement for selling cars in the US.

[2o6]

I'm most surprised about what's the difference between the Isuzu Rodeo and Jiangling Landwind, and if it's really that bad (if they are, indeed, the same car), why were they allowed to sell it in the US?

One: As ifcar said, the Rodeo wasn't a very safe car to begin with.


Two: Did you know the EU spec Sedona has a worse crash rating? The US spec Sedona is several hundred pounds heavier due to numerous reinforcements. The Landwind isn't built with good materials, and isn't reinforced.

[NomisR]

China is the land overflowing with knockoffs.  Knock offs of every name brand thing can be found literally everywhere in China.  Go the an electronics store, and you'll see all kinds of knockoffs of various sought after electronics, such as Playstation 3's and Apple Iphones.  Go to a less than superb clothing store and you'll see all kinds of knockoffs of Nike shoes, various designer clothing etc etc.  As such the attitudes towards imitation products are different from say America or Europe.  I'll tell you something that will shock many of you guys, and many of you won't understand this mentality.  The Chinese are extremely proud of their knockoffs.  Making a good knockoff, or a nearly as good knockoff is probably the greatest source of pride for the person who made it.  When the Chinese see a knockoff they don't think "Oh no, this is so wrong" instead they think, "damn we almost nailed it."  So while knockoffs in America are sold on street corners by shady individuals, the Chinese actively flaunt their knockoffs, put them in autoshows to show the world how closely they have copied.

There is actually an rather interesting reason why.  The vast majority of consumer products such as the Apple Iphone or Playstation 3 or your nice 300 dollar Coach handbag are actually made in China anyway, usually for FAR FAR less cost than they sell for.  The majority of what you are actually paying for is just the label, and since it's the Chinese that are screwing and stitching the darn overpriced things together, they know that fact better than anyone.  To make matters worse, alot of these legit products are not sold in China at all.  Mostly because parent companies feel that the Chinese don't have enough buying power for these higher end products (which is generally true).  So ironically while all Playstation 3's are made in China,  Sony doesn't officially sell Playstation 3 in China, they are all smuggled back into China (rather ironic).  Same deal with the Xbox 360. The Apple Iphone was a similar situation, and until a few years ago Ipods were not sold in China either, even though they were all made in China.   Even products that now finally are sold in China are sold at far higher preminums than compared to the US.  So a computer or Ipod that is made in China actually costs more to buy in China than here.  So basically you have alot of items that are in extremely high demand because they are either not available or too expensive, and at the same time you have millions of Chinese people walking around who know exactly how to make these said things themselves because it's their job every day to make the darn things. 

So who's making these knockoffs?  It's the same people that were/are making the real deal.  When you have a bunch of people with bit and pieces of information on how to build something, it doesn't take long before they get together and try to make it themselves.  Often times they are making it in the same factories and tools that made the legit products, just running during off hours.  So that Nike shoe that costs $90 but only uses $1 worth of raw materials?  They are going to be making their own version for $1.50.  But obviously they don't have the same resources as the full company, and often they don't have the same parts, so often times they make compromises in their DIY projects.  That's where the pride of making a good copy comes in, which is something that no one will understand outside of China.  Their goal and ambition is to make something on their own that is exactly the same as what they make in the big factories.  Now why don't they try to innovate?  Why don't they try to make their own unique product?  Remember you are talking about people that have made Nike shoes every single day of their life for the past 10 years.  They learned how to make shoes from making Nike shoes.  So when it comes time for them to go independent, they will do what they've learned, what they've trained for.  There is an emotional element as well.  They've been making Nikes for the foreigners for as long as they can remember.  Each shoe ends up selling for more than their monthly salary, so they were precious objects always out of reach even though they would hold hundreds in their own hands every day.  They have been making these things for the others for decades, now they can finally try to make the exact same thing for themselves. 

Add those emotions to the fact that the foreign companies usually don't even sell their product in China and pretty much don't care and don't push for any control, and the fact that the Chinese government is afraid to poke the goose that's laying the golden eggs, you pretty much have a society that doesn't really think about knockoffs being massive violations of patents in some far away country.  When you are that young Chinese engineer who has troubleshot your 4506th Iphone and you've assembled and disassembled that machine more times than any man alive and you get the aspirations to try to make your own, a patient filed in a distant country is really the last thing on your mind.

But then again, you have to also remember there are people that make knock-off eggs, knock off soft drinks, and basically counterfeit everything in order to make a quick buck.  And this is the type of stuff that people think of when they see this type of rip offs.

But similarly, you can think imitation is the best form of flattery.  When you look at the Japanese and Korean industry, they basically started off the same way.  Probably not as blatantly with the styling but it's the same concept. 

[565]

But then again, you have to also remember there are people that make knock-off eggs, knock off soft drinks, and basically counterfeit everything in order to make a quick buck.  And this is the type of stuff that people think of when they see this type of rip offs.

But similarly, you can think imitation is the best form of flattery.  When you look at the Japanese and Korean industry, they basically started off the same way.  Probably not as blatantly with the styling but it's the same concept. 

There is a distinction between counterfeit objects that try to pass off as the real thing but actually very dangerous (such as eggs, and softdrinks), and goods that are advertised as clearly imitations (different name and different labels etc).  When you buy a knockoff Ipod, you know it's not a real Ipod because it doesn't say Apple Ipod on the side, instead it says something else.  You know it's a knockoff when you buy it.  When you buy a fake coke or some fake eggs, they clearly didn't say "Fake Coke" or "Fake Eggs" on the side.   You don't know what you are buying in that case.  Those kinds of counterfeit practices carry criminal penalties in China, the problem is that there are so many small independent vendors that it's hard to catch them all. 

[SVT32V]

There is a distinction between counterfeit objects that try to pass off as the real thing but actually very dangerous (such as eggs, and softdrinks), and goods that are advertised as clearly imitations (different name and different labels etc).  When you buy a knockoff Ipod, you know it's not a real Ipod because it doesn't say Apple Ipod on the side, instead it says something else.  You know it's a knockoff when you buy it.  When you buy a fake coke or some fake eggs, they clearly didn't say "Fake Coke" or "Fake Eggs" on the side.   You don't know what you are buying in that case.  Those kinds of counterfeit practices carry criminal penalties in China, the problem is that there are so many small independent vendors that it's hard to catch them all. 

On a trip to china my friend was in a big shopping mall and looking at LV bags for his wife, the clerk volunteered that there was a cheaper way and disappeared and came back with a a bunch of fakes.  He bought it and when he took it home his wife, too her credit, she promptly rejected them saying the real thing or nothing.  The counterfeit business is out of control.

Of course it is also LVs fault, they should not be making things in china at slave labor costs, they open themselves to knockoffs even more.

I don't agree that it is a victimless crime. China needs to step up and protect intellectual property and copyright if they ever want to truly sit at the adult table.

[lazydragon]

On a trip to china my friend was in a big shopping mall and looking at LV bags for his wife, the clerk volunteered that there was a cheaper way and disappeared and came back with a a bunch of fakes.  He bought it and when he took it home his wife, too her credit, she promptly rejected them saying the real thing or nothing.  The counterfeit business is out of control.

Of course it is also LVs fault, they should not be making things in china at slave labor costs, they open themselves to knockoffs even more.

I don't agree that it is a victimless crime. China needs to step up and protect intellectual property and copyright if they ever want to truly sit at the adult table.

Why did your friend want to buy a LV bag in China? Real LV bags sold in China are often more expensive than ones sold in U.S. He probably just wanted to buy a counterfeit one but not "clerk volunteered". People like your friend just encourage more counterfeit goods in China because of high demands and good profits.

[hotrodalex]

I'll bash Chinese cars all I want. They are atrocious right now.

If they get better, I'll stop bashing. But I don't see that happening quickly.

[SVT32V]

Why did your friend want to buy a LV bag in China? Real LV bags sold in China are often more expensive than ones sold in U.S. He probably just wanted to buy a counterfeit one but not "clerk volunteered". People like your friend just encourage more counterfeit goods in China because of high demands and good profits.

Sleeping dragon,

I doubt the small number of white devils buying bags in china are the biggest consumers of such ilk. No doubt he is wrong, but look no further than the china's own population for demand. The manufacturers, sellers and buyers are all at fault.
Actually, it would be easier to just go to chinatown and get the same thing and not worry about dragging it back over the pacific and getting through customs.

[NomisR]

On a trip to china my friend was in a big shopping mall and looking at LV bags for his wife, the clerk volunteered that there was a cheaper way and disappeared and came back with a a bunch of fakes.  He bought it and when he took it home his wife, too her credit, she promptly rejected them saying the real thing or nothing.  The counterfeit business is out of control.

Of course it is also LVs fault, they should not be making things in china at slave labor costs, they open themselves to knockoffs even more.

I don't agree that it is a victimless crime. China needs to step up and protect intellectual property and copyright if they ever want to truly sit at the adult table.

Well, LV bags aren't made in China to begin with.  They're either made in France, Italy, Spain or USA, but not China.  So those counterfeits are made exclusively to be just that.  And yeah, why would you buy those in China when everyone come to the US to buy it or you would buy it in France. 

But either way, yeah, counterfeit business is getting ridiculous but the government is trying their "best" to cut it down.  But considering that the industrialized countries can't even stop it, how do you expect others to do it? 

[GoCougs]

China's blatant disregard for intellectual property as evidenced by these so-called "knock-offs" is reason #456 why their economy is doomed in the long run.

[565]

China's blatant disregard for intellectual property as evidenced by these so-called "knock-offs" is reason #456 why their economy is doomed in the long run.

Usually developing countries don't have strong copyright or patent law enforcement until their own industry starts to innovate and make IP so that they would actually benefit from copyright laws.  America was the exact same way during it's development.  For example Charles Dicken's books were hugely popular in America (as was much of British lit).  When there was a new book realeased, there would be American ships waiting on the shores for smuggled copies of the latest Charles Dickens book, and during the trip to America, the ship would be a mobile print factory.  By the time the ship landed in the States, there were thousands of copies of fresh bootlegged Dickens novels to sell.  Of course Dickens didn't see a dime.  It's extremely similar to pirating DVD's in China now.

The same thing applied to tangible goods and technologies.  With a few exceptions, the vast majority of technology and industry America acquired was stolen directly from the British.  And it's not like the British didn't care or didn't have patent and copy right laws.  Britain was extremely weary of technology leakage and made smuggling technologies out of Britain punishable by death.  Still it didn't stop Americans from setting up factories and industries that were basically complete copies.

A similar story was true for Germany during its development.  In fact it's an interesting story behind the first goods to carry the "Made in" label.  Do you know why German goods originally carried the label "Made in Germany?"  It was because the British were sick and tired of the Germans making so many inferior knockoffs and allowing them to mingle with the originals.  So the Merchandise Marks Act 1887, in Britain mandated that all German knockoffs to carry the Made in Germany labels.

Certainly both America and Germany eventually managed to outgrow it's knockoff years. 

[Raza]

Usually developing countries don't have strong copyright or patent law enforcement until their own industry starts to innovate and make IP so that they would actually benefit from copyright laws.  America was the exact same way during it's development.  For example Charles Dicken's books were hugely popular in America (as was much of British lit).  When there was a new book realeased, there would be American ships waiting on the shores for smuggled copies of the latest Charles Dickens book, and during the trip to America, the ship would be a mobile print factory.  By the time the ship landed in the States, there were thousands of copies of fresh bootlegged Dickens novels to sell.  Of course Dickens didn't see a dime.  It's extremely similar to pirating DVD's in China now.

There was an episode of Bonanza about that.

[lazydragon]

Sleeping dragon,

I doubt the small number of white devils buying bags in china are the biggest consumers of such ilk. No doubt he is wrong, but look no further than the china's own population for demand. The manufacturers, sellers and buyers are all at fault.
Actually, it would be easier to just go to chinatown and get the same thing and not worry about dragging it back over the pacific and getting through customs.

If you try to google "LV bags on sale", you will see many websites (e.g. http://www.louisvuitton4sale.com/) which carry LV counterfeits. Many Americans download MP3 songs without copyrights every day. If the most developed country can't even get rid of those, how can we expect a developing country to improve it in no time?

Why do you know so much things related to counterfeit goods such as where to buy etc? Did you often buy them?

[NomisR]

China's blatant disregard for intellectual property as evidenced by these so-called "knock-offs" is reason #456 why their economy is doomed in the long run.

Things like 565 listed are definitely true, also consider that, Japan, Korea, Taiwan started the same way and look at them right now.  It's just a part of the progression into an industrialized nation. 

As for Chinese economy being dooms, I don't think so.  You have to consider that they have a more or less stable government and economy and they have the population which is the biggest key.  Why do you think US is able to remain so dominant over Europe economically since WWII?  Is it because Americans are so vastly superior that they can't compete?  Not even close..  it's because US population is the largest by far of all industrialized nations followed by Japan and Germany which is actually the order of the economy size too.  And with China containing 20% of the world population, there's really nothing to stop them from taking over and becoming the world's largest market.  They can do it simply by default of having the most people.  Only thing that may bring it down is if there's an energy shortage and food crisis.. but considering their investment in that for the future, they're in better shape than we are.

[sportyaccordy]

If there was any reason to default on our T-Bonds in China this would be it.