K&N vs. paper air filters

[Eye of the Tiger]

The last engine I rebuilt was the Jaguar's and the cost was about $6,000  in parts and machine work and labour.  The engine develops 265 HP so 8 HP at 5,000 doesn't mean much at all;  new plugs would probably give me that kind of gain.  Neither does saving a couple of hundred dollars when compared with the cost of a rebuild.  I'll just suffer along with an unoptimized engine while replacing the air filter annually, knowing, not just hoping, my engine is getting properly filtered air.  

Show me proof that K&N filters kill engines. If all you care about is keeping your engine clean, you should seal it shut and never run it. You don't KNOW anything.

[S204STi]

Show me proof that K&N filters kill engines. If all you care about is keeping your engine clean, you should seal it shut and never run it. You don't KNOW anything.

When I sent out an oil sample for analysis the lab asked me if I had a dirty or aftermarket air filter.  Why did they ask?  Because of elevated silicone in the OIL.  If dirt from the intake can get into the lubrication system that means that there is very much an impact from poor filtration.  Someone (tongue in cheek I think) mentioned that engines don't fail from being crammed with dirt.  True, but grit in your oil takes out hard parts over time.  Again, not worth a minor gain in performance.

If you know so much about these topics why don't you do a little more to prove your point?  At this point you're a tech student lube tech.  John has the actual skills to rebuild a motor to spec.  Tell me which one knows more about cars now?

If you're talking about knowledge of this specific topic, at least three people have demonstrated more knowledge in this thread, you have some catching up to do.

[Byteme]

Show me proof that K&N filters kill engines. If all you care about is keeping your engine clean, you should seal it shut and never run it. You don't KNOW anything.

No probably not.   

I've only been doing most of my own car maintenance for 42+ years. and only have something like 1,000,000 driving miles under my belt.  But I do know a fool when I see one and I do know how to critically evalaute advertising claims and real world data.
   

[Eye of the Tiger]

When I sent out an oil sample for analysis the lab asked me if I had a dirty or aftermarket air filter.  Why did they ask?  Because of elevated silicone in the OIL.  If dirt from the intake can get into the lubrication system that means that there is very much an impact from poor filtration.  Someone (tongue in cheek I think) mentioned that engines don't fail from being crammed with dirt.  True, but grit in your oil takes out hard parts over time.  Again, not worth a minor gain in performance.

If you know so much about these topics why don't you do a little more to prove your point?  At this point you're a tech student lube tech.  John has the actual skills to rebuild a motor to spec.  Tell me which one knows more about cars now?

If you're talking about knowledge of this specific topic, at least three people have demonstrated more knowledge in this thread, you have some catching up to do.

Do we have to go there? Of course, I didn't just rebuild an engine that runs perfectly, and no, I didn't get the highest grades in the entire engine class, or any other auto classes. Obviously, I'm a complete idiot because I have a part time job at a shitty tire and lube place.

This whole argument is so typical. Once again, NONE of you guys have demonstrated any knowledge or logic to contradict anything that I've said. All you do is tear apart K&N's marketing and say that it's snake oil, and that paper must be better since OEM's use it.

What are you guys trying to argue about anymore? I already said that K&N's don't filter as well as paper. Why are you still trying to argue with me like I didn't know that? They are also less restrictive to airflow, another point that nobody here is denying. So what's the damn problem here?

No probably not.  

I've only been doing most of my own car maintenance for 42+ years. and only have something like 1,000,000 driving miles under my belt.  But I do know a fool when I see one and I do know how to critically evalaute advertising claims and real world data.
  

There are a lot of people who have been doing their own maintenance for their entire lives, and they still don't know jack shit. You are trying so hard not to be a fool, but you are the fool.

[S204STi]

you are the fool.

[Eye of the Tiger]

wat

[S204STi]

Do we have to go there? Of course, I didn't just rebuild an engine that runs perfectly, and no, I didn't get the highest grades in the entire engine class, or any other auto classes. Obviously, I'm a complete idiot because I have a part time job at a shitty tire and lube place.

No you're not a complete idiot, but waltzing in here and throwing around your superior automotive knowledge isn't a good call when you are outweighed in that department in the first place.  I was in your place once too; some knowledge, some experience.  I am still not quite where I would like to be someday (who is?) but what I am trying to say is not to make the mistake I made in assuming that tech school provides you with all the answers.

This whole argument is so typical. Once again, NONE of you guys have demonstrated any knowledge or logic to contradict anything that I've said. All you do is tear apart K&N's marketing and say that it's snake oil, and that paper must be better since OEM's use it.

What are you guys trying to argue about anymore? I already said that K&N's don't filter as well as paper. Why are you still trying to argue with me like I didn't know that? They are also less restrictive to airflow, another point that nobody here is denying. So what's the damn problem here?

What about where you said, "Show me proof that K&N kills engines?"  I answered that one already.  Grit from the induction system gets on the oil on the cylinder walls, gets scrapped into the lubrication system where it can do damage before it gets filtered out.

You base your claims to higher horsepower on dubious testing techniques, as Cougs demonstrated.

Basically all your "arguments" are flotsam, but you keep coming back for more. 

[GoCougs]

NACar's tirade here reminds me of the conversation I have with the local oil change shop just about every oil change - and I had one just last week.

I like a regular guy follow my car's oil life monitor. It turns on at 6500 - 7000 miles. Without fail the lube tech goes on a jihad about the 3000 mile interval, and that I'm harming my engine, and blah, blah, blah.

I usually reply, yeah, but Honda says the interval is 7500 miles. Then I get a retort along the lines of that everyone does "severe" driving according to the API so you should only go 3000 miles. I then simply reply, "but API doesn't design, build and warranty Honda's engines." Neither is it K&N's business to design and build engines.

Just reading their test methodology and their caveat language ("attempt to hold all other variables constant" or "your results will vary" or "designed to provide") plus having just a bit of basic knowledge about VE plus a bit of hand-on knowledge and experience, I feel comfortable stating that K&N's power and mpg claims are bunk.

[Eye of the Tiger]

No you're not a complete idiot, but waltzing in here and throwing around your superior automotive knowledge isn't a good call when you are outweighed in that department in the first place.  I was in your place once too; some knowledge, some experience.  I am still not quite where I would like to be someday (who is?) but what I am trying to say is not to make the mistake I made in assuming that tech school provides you with all the answers.

What about where you said, "Show me proof that K&N kills engines?"  I answered that one already.  Grit from the induction system gets on the oil on the cylinder walls, gets scrapped into the lubrication system where it can do damage before it gets filtered out.

You base your claims to higher horsepower on dubious testing techniques, as Cougs demonstrated.

Basically all your "arguments" are flotsam, but you keep coming back for more. 

You don't get it. You want superior automotive knowledge? You got it. I have no problem saying that as far as I can tell, I'm the smartest person here in that department. There. I sound like a cocky asshole, but at least I tell the truth.

YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROOF that a K&N filter is going to cause your engine to fail or wear out prematurely. Neither of us know what amount of contaminants that a K&N lets in, or to what degree it harms or shortens the life of a given engine. Can you tell me if a paper filter will allow your engine to go an extra 200,000 miles, or just another 1,000? No. I'd like to see a test in that respect, but until then, cut the crap.

[Eye of the Tiger]

NACar's tirade here reminds me of the conversation I have with the local oil change shop just about every oil change - and I had one just last week.

I like a regular guy follow my car's oil life monitor. It turns on at 6500 - 7000 miles. Without fail the lube tech goes on a jihad about the 3000 mile interval, and that I'm harming my engine, and blah, blah, blah.

I usually reply, yeah, but Honda says the interval is 7500 miles. Then I get a retort along the lines of that everyone does "severe" driving according to the API so you should only go 3000 miles. I then simply reply, "but API doesn't design, build and warranty Honda's engines." Neither is it K&N's business to design and build engines.

Just reading their test methodology and their caveat language ("attempt to hold all other variables constant" or "your results will vary" or "designed to provide") plus having just a bit of basic knowledge about VE plus a bit of hand-on knowledge and experience, I feel comfortable stating that K&N's power and mpg claims are bunk.

You can't even compare me to some brain washed grease monkey. Those are the types of people that I clash with on a daily basis.

[Byteme]

There are a lot of people who have been doing their own maintenance for their entire lives, and they still don't know jack shit. You are trying so hard not to be a fool, but you are the fool.

You know, this is just an internet forum and I try not to take it so seriously but having said that I'm getting tired of the petty personal insults you throw out when you run out of decent counter arguments.

Let me offer this simple suggestion.  Why don't you open your eyes and read the material with an open mind.  Anyone would think you are a K&N stockholder.  

[Byteme]

You don't get it. You want superior automotive knowledge? You got it. I have no problem saying that as far as I can tell, I'm the smartest person here in that department. There. I sound like a cocky asshole, but at least I tell the truth.

And you base that claim on what?

[S204STi]

You don't get it. You want superior automotive knowledge? You got it. I have no problem saying that as far as I can tell, I'm the smartest person here in that department. There. I sound like a cocky asshole, but at least I tell the truth.

OK Big Guy, you officially have the longest Epeen.  Happy?  I hope it doesn't hurt to bad when it gets chopped off.

YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROOF that a K&N filter is going to cause your engine to fail or wear out prematurely. Neither of us know what amount of contaminants that a K&N lets in, or to what degree it harms or shortens the life of a given engine. Can you tell me if a paper filter will allow your engine to go an extra 200,000 miles, or just another 1,000? No. I'd like to see a test in that respect, but until then, cut the crap.

I'm sorry but in my world 2+2=4 all of the time.  Dirt + metal parts = wear, 100% of the time.  I doubt any such study occurs, but if I find one I'll let you know, but I'm not going to scour the internet trying to deal with your feeble arguments.  I don't really care at this point to continue to argue with you, it's pointless.

[GoCougs]

You can't even compare me to some brain washed grease monkey. Those are the types of people that I clash with on a daily basis.

I'm not comparing you to that guy, I'm comparing K&N - K&N is using its available means to delve into an area which isn't their expertise because they have a financial stake in doing so.

[Eye of the Tiger]

And you base that claim on what?

I base it on every single conversation that I've ever had with anybody about cars. Of course, you're old, so you think you're smarter than any younger folk. I don't like talking to people like you.

OK Big Guy, you officially have the longest Epeen.  Happy?  I hope it doesn't hurt to bad when it gets chopped off.

I'm sorry but in my world 2+2=4 all of the time.  Dirt + metal parts = wear, 100% of the time.  I doubt any such study occurs, but if I find one I'll let you know, but I'm not going to scour the internet trying to deal with your feeble arguments.  I don't really care at this point to continue to argue with you, it's pointless.

Fuck your epeen. Epeen has nothing to do with anything. Go ahead and keep throwing your insults at me, I've heard it all before. I've had enough with this jackasserey.

[S204STi]

I base it on every single conversation that I've ever had with anybody about cars. Of course, you're old, so you think you're smarter than any younger folk. I don't like talking to people like you.


Fuck your epeen. Epeen has nothing to do with anything. Go ahead and keep throwing your insults at me, I've heard it all before. I've had enough with this jackasserey.

God it would be fun to sit in and watch you in your first real job as a tech.  Watching you struggle because you alienate all the other guys in the shop to who have a clue with your bad attitude would be good entertainment.

[NomisR]

The TRD airbox I got for my Elise uses green foam filters.  And it was dynoed to gain about 3-5 hp, but that can be a variation with temperature, and other conditions.  And most of that gain was most likely due to airbox design and not filter itself.

However, I do think most manufacturers uses paper filter rather than any type of foam cloth filters due to cost, maintainence, and liability/warranty reasons.  If you have something that's cheap and easily replaced, why swap it for something where someone has to clean and could mess up doing so where the manufacturer would have to end up footing the bill for maintainence?  I wouldn't. 

[JWC]

Simple.

Go back to post five in this thread and think about the "other thing".  Why oil is used as a filtration supplement.

A good tech always ask why and how something affects a vehicle.  You just don't throw parts at it and assume it works.

[Cookie Monster]

R/C nitro and gas cars use foam filters.

That's about all I know on the subject.

[Byteme]

I base it on every single conversation that I've ever had with anybody about cars. Of course, you're old, so you think you're smarter than any younger folk. I don't like talking to people like you.

Oh, well in that case fuck off sport.

Edit:

I ask you a reasonable question about where you acquired your automotive knowledge and I get a load of crap in return.  You've got a bright career ahead of you in any position where you have to deal with other people. 

[Cookie Monster]

The last engine I rebuilt was the Jaguar's and the cost was about $6,000  in parts and machine work and labour.  The engine develops 265 HP so 8 HP at 5,000 doesn't mean much at all;  new plugs would probably give me that kind of gain.  Neither does saving a couple of hundred dollars when compared with the cost of a rebuild.  I'll just suffer along with an unoptimized engine while replacing the air filter annually, knowing, not just hoping, my engine is getting properly filtered air.  

$6k with your own labor??

Damn that's expensive.

[Byteme]

$6k with your own labor??

Damn that's expensive.

Parts are not cheap for that engine.  Plus, only about 1/2 the labour was mine.  About 50% was professional.

Machining and head work was well over a grand.  New pistons, we overbored .030, were about $130 each.  All the nickel dime stuff one has to buy just adds up (well over $150 in gaskets). 

[r0tor]

I find the filtration arguement halarious at best.  The amount of dirt filtered between the best and worst filters are within 2%.  Over the life of a engine, if it injects 20 pounds of dirt with a paper filter, I hardly think its going to care about 20.4 pound of dirt with a K&N.

However the tests posted previous do show a 1-2 inHG differential in pressure drop.  In some engines thats like closing the throttle 5%.

[S204STi]

I find the filtration arguement halarious at best.  The amount of dirt filtered between the best and worst filters are within 2%.  Over the life of a engine, if it injects 20 pounds of dirt with a paper filter, I hardly think its going to care about 20.4 pound of dirt with a K&N.

However the tests posted previous do show a 1-2 inHG differential in pressure drop.  In some engines thats like closing the throttle 5%.

I still don't buy that coating my intake in oil that is blown off a filter is a good idea.  The throttle body ultimately controls airflow to the cylinders, not the filter.

But I'll take your word for it on the filtration thing, since you seem to know something about it.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

 

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I noticed Z28 chimed in about his motorcycle; on a vehicle weighing 400lbs you are probably going to notice even minor changes to the power curve, but in a 3000lbs vehicle not so much.

Honestly I can't feel any differance on either vehicle. I know on my last bike The Power Commander had a setting for K&N and exhaust set ups. I'm not sure if the filters cause that much of a change (the bikes are ram air) or not. 

[r0tor]

I still don't buy that coating my intake in oil that is blown off a filter is a good idea.  The throttle body ultimately controls airflow to the cylinders, not the filter.

But I'll take your word for it on the filtration thing, since you seem to know something about it.

i had 2 cups of motor oil in my intake before i put a catch can on -sigh-

[JWC]

Damn, this has been an entertaining thread to read today...when I could.  I couldn't reply in any detail because for once we actually got busy.

To rehash some comments here...indeed, it only take a few minutes to clean the MAF sensor.  Logically though, you should ask why you constantly have to clean it with K&N, not that it is easy so it isn't a big deal.  The reason for oil with K&N is to stop dirt from going any further than the filter.  Ask yourself, why you do not need to do this with a paper filter. 

If an air cleaner system claims less restriction (air flow) it logically can only achieve this one way...by opening up the pores to allow more air through.

Then there is the oil bath itself. Since it has been determined that the MAF will need to be cleaned, the next question is how soon?  If you install a freshly cleaned and oiled filter and oil comes off the filter and contacts the MAF sensor after driving the vehicle your performance will suffer.  If nothing else that small amount of oil is collecting on the platinum grid/wire and allow dirt to collect that much sooner and that much thicker which would insulate the sensor and change its readings to the PCM.

As I hinted, it isn't enough to take a manufacturer for their word.  If they claim something always ask why and how.  Forget bias as to why.  Ask instead why and how does the filter allow more air flow and how does that affect components downstream.

[S204STi]

i had 2 cups of motor oil in my intake before i put a catch can on -sigh-

And is your MAF before or after the PCV inlet?

[Rupert]

Wow, that was epic.