[rant] New Prius commercials.

[TBR]

Check it out.

That isn't how it works. You made the statement, not me. (and, you definitely didn't check it so at best you're working of memories that could be faulty)

[2o6]

That isn't how it works. You made the statement, not me. (and, you definitely didn't check it so at best you're working of memories that could be faulty)

Did you click the link? No matter: another one.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/report-honda-toyota-earning-profits-on-hybrids.html

[TBR]

Did you click the link? No matter: another one.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/report-honda-toyota-earning-profits-on-hybrids.html

Sorry, I didn't see it as you posted it after I had already applied to your prior post. Regardless, I am relatively certain that those numbers don't take the rather significant development costs into effect, however; I'll concede the point anyway: Toyota does make money on the Prius.

[Lebowski]

I don't see what the big deal about this commercial is.  Yeah, it's a quirky, somewhat queer commercial but it's geared towards the same people a Prius is geared to.  I personally would not buy a Prius, but if I did want to this commercial wouldn't have any negative impact on that decision.

I agree that hybrids make little if any economic sense.  Most of the people who buy Priuses wouldn't be caught dead in a traditional economy car, and that's why the Prius exists.

[sandertheshark]

Did you click the link? No matter: another one.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/report-honda-toyota-earning-profits-on-hybrids.html

I'm pleased Honda and Toyota are making money by ripping off their consumers with slow shitboxes that clog up the carpool lanes.

Wait, no, pleased isn't the right word.  "Violently angry" is what I was looking for.

[Onslaught]

I'm pleased Honda and Toyota are making money by ripping off their consumers with slow shitboxes that clog up the carpool lanes.

Wait, no, pleased isn't the right word.  "Violently angry" is what I was looking for.

And SUV's don't? Not only do those things go slow but I can't see anything in front of them too. It's not the car but the person driving it that's the problem.

[Raza]

Only if Toyota is making money on them and I am not convinced that they are. I think it's probably more of a marketing statement than anything, to distract people from all those SUVs and trucks they sell.

Toyota claims that the Prius is not a profit-making car in its current sales numbers.  That's why they're increasing production. 

[GoCougs]

Cougs, the market has spoken. And hybrids are a success.

No

Go ahead and add the new Honda Insight. We all know it will do well after car sales start to improve.

But also remember the US market in 2008 was ~16,000,000 cars yet all hyrbid sales combined were 315,000 (0.3%).

The market has spoken, but with a veru small voice (1.9%) I don't think overall success beyond the Prius and be claimed just yet.

Remove Prius sales of 160,000 (which we all know that it sells because it is an easily recognizable socio-political statement) and market share falls to less than 1%.

[2o6]

No
But also remember the US market in 2008 was ~16,000,000 cars yet all hyrbid sales combined were 315,000 (0.3%).

The market has spoken, but with a veru small voice (1.9%) I don't think overall success beyond the Prius and be claimed just yet.

Remove Prius sales of 160,000 (which we all know that it sells because it is an easily recognizable socio-political statement) and market share falls to less than 1%.

I don't even have a retort to this. Your logic is so skewed and backwards, there's no way to reason with you.

[TBR]

I'm pleased Honda and Toyota are making money by ripping off their consumers with slow shitboxes that clog up the carpool lanes.

Wait, no, pleased isn't the right word.  "Violently angry" is what I was looking for.

Since when is taking a profit ripping consumers off? I am amazed how quickly some people are willing to throw the free market out of the window when they simply don't like the product in question.

[dazzleman]

I don't even have a retort to this. Your logic is so skewed and backwards, there's no way to reason with you.

How is Cougs wrong here, Kevin?  The truth is that hybrids have been very hyped up, and don't command a big share of the market.  That doesn't mean that they won't in the future, but to argue that as of now, they're a smashing success simply isn't true.  If you believe that, you've swallowed some propaganda whole.

[dazzleman]

Since when is taking a profit ripping consumers off? I am amazed how quickly some people are willing to throw the free market out of the window when they simply don't like the product in question.

I agree.  Nobody is ripped off if they buy something voluntary.  If they didn't get a good value for what they bought, it's their own fault.  It doesn't mean they were ripped off.  Ripping off implies that they paid for something that they didn't get, but if they knew, or had reason to know, what attributes a car has, and overpaid for it (by some subjective measure), they were not ripped off.

[CALL_911]

Since when is taking a profit ripping consumers off? I am amazed how quickly some people are willing to throw the free market out of the window when they simply don't like the product in question.

+a lot

Sure, things can inherently be "ripoffs," but if people go for the bait voluntarily, they didn't really get ripped off.

[280Z Turbo]

As long as people are still willing to pay $50,000 for a dressed-up $20,000 truck, hybrids will make sense to me.

[TBR]

I agree.  Nobody is ripped off if they buy something voluntary.  If they didn't get a good value for what they bought, it's their own fault.  It doesn't mean they were ripped off.  Ripping off implies that they paid for something that they didn't get, but if they knew, or had reason to know, what attributes a car has, and overpaid for it (by some subjective measure), they were not ripped off.

Although I don't know what profit margins typically are in the auto industry, 15% sans development and tooling costs hardly strikes me as excessive either.

[dazzleman]

Although I don't know what profit margins typically are in the auto industry, 15% sans development and tooling costs hardly strikes me as excessive either.

Actually, profit margins are irrelevant.  If a person can make a 1000% profit margin selling something honestly to a willing buyer, then he's done nothing wrong.

[TBR]

Actually, profit margins are irrelevant.  If a person can make a 1000% profit margin selling something honestly to a willing buyer, then he's done nothing wrong.

Right, I was just addressing any argument sanders might have.

[GoCougs]

I don't even have a retort to this. Your logic is so skewed and backwards, there's no way to reason with you.

I'm not surprised; for what can be said as a counter?

I would not be surprised to see hybrid market share fall this year, as the unattractive financial aspect asserts itself in these tougher times.

[hotrodalex]

Actually hybrid buyers are being ripped off, if you have a certain way of thinking about it. They have been brainwashed into thinking it will save the world if they buy a hybrid, so they pay a premium.

[TBR]

Actually hybrid buyers are being ripped off, if you have a certain way of thinking about it. They have been brainwashed into thinking it will save the world if they buy a hybrid, so they pay a premium.

But not by Toyota and Honda.

[hotrodalex]

But not by Toyota and Honda.

That commercial sure gives a "green-save-the-earth" subliminal message.

[TBR]

That commercial sure gives a "green-save-the-earth" subliminal message.

Of course, marketing is supposed to reinforce positive preconceptions.

[hotrodalex]

So they are contributing to the brainwashing.

[TBR]

So they are contributing to the brainwashing.

No more so than pretty much any company that markets their product

[2o6]

How is Cougs wrong here, Kevin?  The truth is that hybrids have been very hyped up, and don't command a big share of the market.  That doesn't mean that they won't in the future, but to argue that as of now, they're a smashing success simply isn't true.  If you believe that, you've swallowed some propaganda whole.

I'm not saying that they're a vivid success, but they're a relative success. They've taken a sizable chunk out of the market for regular cars. Granted, they can't really penetrate the Pickup market (and logically, they can't) they have created a segment that is fast growing as a whole, even if there are percentage of sales drops.

[dazzleman]

I'm not sure how you define 'sizable.'. They're right now a very small segment of the car market.

And I'm not convinced that their better gas mileage isn't offset by the additional purchase/maintenance costs of having the large battery, not to mention ultimate disposal of the toxic substances in the battery.

I'm not a hybrid basher and I think it's good to develop new technology but it's not good for the ultimate health of anything to overhype it, because that leads to a backlash when reality sets in.

[hotrodalex]

No more so than pretty much any company that markets their product

And all other companies who wrongly state that their product is "green" and will save the world can be considered ripping off customers too.

(I'm not really serious here, just being a little devil's advocate and tossing ideas around)

[hotrodalex]

I'm not a hybrid basher and I think it's good to develop new technology but it's not good for the ultimate health of anything to overhype it, because that leads to a backlash when reality sets in.

I also think that we should continue to develop technology to find something better than hybrids, since they are just a band-aid for the problem.

[dazzleman]

I also think that we should continue to develop technology to find something better than hybrids, since they are just a band-aid for the problem.

I agree.  They are, at their best, an intermediate solution.  Intermediate solutions are required and they're better than nothing, but I don't think it makes sense to overhype them because some Hollywood asshole wants to assauge his guilt for flying around in private jets by having a Prius he rarely drives (since the limo driver usually takes him around) in his driveway.

[TBR]

And all other companies who wrongly state that their product is "green" and will save the world can be considered ripping off customers too.

(I'm not really serious here, just being a little devil's advocate and tossing ideas around)

Hell, the green side blames global warming on GM's marketing department, so this isn't any less reasonable.