The never ending debate

[GoCougs]

Isn't the main reason why pushrods are phased out mainly due to government regulations and taxations?  By placing high taxes on high displacement cars even if the said engine is more compact, more powerful and consume less fuel than a smaller displacement car, all in the name of fuel economy? 

Not really - some may have phased out due to emissions, but the LS and Hemi are new designs...

[NomisR]

Not really - some may have phased out due to emissions, but the LS and Hemi are new designs...

Yeah, but without the regulation and high taxation around, I'm sure more development would have been put into it.   So it's really government intervention that killed the push-rod development and not the market.  That's why you have American manufacturers continue to build it because US does not have such a regulation. 

Ford did away with it because they're going more towards a global platform.

[GoCougs]

Yeah, but without the regulation and high taxation around, I'm sure more development would have been put into it.   So it's really government intervention that killed the push-rod development and not the market.  That's why you have American manufacturers continue to build it because US does not have such a regulation.  

Ford did away with it because they're going more towards a global platform.

The market killed the pushrod engine; remember, Detroit built millions of pushrod I4 and V6 engines, and elsewhere they were already on their way out or were never a factor before the regulations really started kicking in ('80s)...

[hotrodalex]

The market killed the pushrod engine; remember, Detroit built millions of pushrod I4 and V6 engines, and elsewhere they were already on their way out or were never a factor before the regulations really started kicking in ('80s)...

Detroit's 4 and 6 cyl pushrods were horrible, stemming from lack of effort put into them. They said "nobody cares about these cars, so we don't have to spend money on these engines."

[r0tor]

Actually, a 600hp modern small block with modern injection has no problems with those things. But I was talking big block. I already built a carburated big block Ford that had almost that much hp and over 700 lb ft of torque that was a smooth daily driver, as easy to drive as a stock 5.0. My 500plus hp carburated big block Chevy was also pretty smooth and easy to drive. Adding another hundred hp to it's not that much of an issue these days.

since you put so much emphasis into real world experiences in your garage, it contridicts my experience with my best friends 550hp 2002 Firehawk with head work, big cams, and LS1edit that was attempted to be tuned with 2 seperate and very reputable shops.  It was bad enough he sold the car because it was too big of a pain in the ass to actually drive everyday.

[S204STi]

Edited the pics in my last post, realized that I posted the same one twice when I meant to post a different one.

[hotrodalex]

since you put so much emphasis into real world experiences in your garage, it contridicts my experience with my best friends 550hp 2002 Firehawk with head work, big cams, and LS1edit that was attempted to be tuned with 2 seperate and very reputable shops.  It was bad enough he sold the car because it was too big of a pain in the ass to actually drive everyday.

My Camaro makes 430-450hp (I've done some things to it since the last dyno so I'm not sure) and can easily be a driver. Adding a larger cam, a better flowing intake, and maybe some better heads would give it 500+ hp and still be able to drive around fairly easily. The biggest problem would be possible overheating in traffic jams.

With a big block, 600-700 hp and ft lbs of torque wouldn't be impossible at all. Just get a good cooling system and don't overdo things too much and it's feasible to drive around.

[mzziaz]

Isn't the main reason why pushrods are phased out mainly due to government regulations and taxations?  By placing high taxes on high displacement cars even if the said engine is more compact, more powerful and consume less fuel than a smaller displacement car, all in the name of fuel economy? 

I highly doubt that. I can't really think of any countries that still have displacement taxes. Also, the engines discussed here are mostly for the domestic market, anyway.

[r0tor]

My Camaro makes 430-450hp (I've done some things to it since the last dyno so I'm not sure) and can easily be a driver. Adding a larger cam, a better flowing intake, and maybe some better heads would give it 500+ hp and still be able to drive around fairly easily. The biggest problem would be possible overheating in traffic jams.

His car was also fine at those levels... not when he dyno'd 540 at the wheels though and it just showed the sacrifices needed when you can adjust cam timing and profiles for big power.

[hotrodalex]

His car was also fine at those levels... not when he dyno'd 540 at the wheels though and it just showed the sacrifices needed when you can adjust cam timing and profiles for big power.

Sounds like he just tried to do too much with the engine, which happens a lot. It wouldn't be that bad if he had done it with a big block and supercharger.

[r0tor]

Sounds like he just tried to do too much with the engine, which happens a lot. It wouldn't be that bad if he had done it with a big block and supercharger.

well, it was in direct response to this attitude:
Yea you could cobble together some Detroit iron for prob 2/5 the price of that no problem and make the same power (6oo hp).

[NomisR]

I highly doubt that. I can't really think of any countries that still have displacement taxes. Also, the engines discussed here are mostly for the domestic market, anyway.

That's what killed them off in the first place making them not feasible for foreign consumption which still holds true.

[hotrodalex]

well, it was in direct response to this attitude:
Yea you could cobble together some Detroit iron for prob 2/5 the price of that no problem and make the same power (6oo hp).

Well he is right that you can get that same power, or more, for 2/5 of the price.

http://www.usmracer.com/Turn-Key-ZZ572720R-720-HP-572-Drag-Race-Crate-Engine_p_1979.html

720 horsepower and 685 lb.-ft. of torque for 19k

I'm not sure if that would be a good engine to drive on the street, but it shows that it is very possible.

[r0tor]

I could easily have 600hp rotary engine too... the real question is if its streetable and the answer is no in which case it becomes a moot point

[hotrodalex]

I could easily have 600hp rotary engine too... the real question is if its streetable and the answer is no in which case it becomes a moot point

The point was it's only $19k.

And it could possibly be streetable.

[r0tor]

but not to the point an OHC with variable valve timing would be... relevant to the thread at hand

[hotrodalex]

but not to the point an OHC with variable valve timing would be... relevant to the thread at hand

But could you build one with that much power for $19k?

[GoCougs]

Well he is right that you can get that same power, or more, for 2/5 of the price.

http://www.usmracer.com/Turn-Key-ZZ572720R-720-HP-572-Drag-Race-Crate-Engine_p_1979.html

720 horsepower and 685 lb.-ft. of torque for 19k

I'm not sure if that would be a good engine to drive on the street, but it shows that it is very possible.

.714" lift, 12:1 CR, single plane intake, and a solid cam? No, not streetable.

You guys gotta give the whole price thing a rest. It doesn't add up, literally.

[mzziaz]

That's what killed them off in the first place making them not feasible for foreign consumption which still holds true.

I don't think so. For example, Ford of Europe used to have a whole lineup of pushrod engines (v6, v4, i4). That wouldn't have made sense if they had disadvanteges in legislation. And I really don't believe displacement taxes ever has been common. The biggest car markets in Europe (UK, Germany, France) certainly never had them. In Japan I belive they used to have hp-taxes.
So I really don't think legislation has killed off any pushrods.

[565]

And I really don't believe displacement taxes ever has been common. The biggest car markets in Europe (UK, Germany, France) certainly never had them.

Britain STILL has a displacement tax on cars over 1.549 liters registered earlier than March 2001.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

[565]

In Japan I belive they used to have hp-taxes.
So I really don't think legislation has killed off any pushrods.

In Japan cars are STILL taxed by displacement.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2206.html

"Vehicle related Taxes  
A prefectural automobile tax is paid annually by individuals who own a car, truck or bus. In case of passenger cars, the amount is calculated based on the engine displacement. A municipal light vehicle tax is paid annually by individuals who own motorbikes or other motorized light vehicles. A national motor vehicle tonnage tax is paid by vehicle owners at the time of the mandatory inspections (shaken). A prefectural automobile acquisition tax is paid by persons when they acquire a car."

http://www.gotjapan.com/living/owning_a_car.php

Taxes
There are three taxes you should be aware of when you own an automobile in Japan. They are:

1) Car Tax - The owner of a car is taxed every year on April 1. The tax amount is decided by the size of the engine displacement and the purpose of the car's use.
2) Car Weight Tax - When your car goes through the mandatory automobile inspection, tax is charged according to the weight of the car. You have to pay the tax at the time of registration, and when you have a compulsory automobile inspection.
3) Car Acquisition Tax - Regardless of whether the car is new or second-hand, you will be charged this tax when you buy a car. You have to pay the tax when you register the car.

[mzziaz]

:) I stand corrected.

[SVT32V]

But could you build one with that much power for $19k?

How about a SUPERCHARGED 5.4L - ROMEO 605 FORD RACING PERFORMANCE CRATE ENGINE ASSEMBLY

only $18,150.00

# 605 hp supercharged 5.4L DOHC engine
# 550 lbs/ft of torque

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10261


I guaruntee it will be very streatable, relaible, and is bolts into any mod motor v8 drivetrain.

[S204STi]

How about a SUPERCHARGED 5.4L - ROMEO 605 FORD RACING PERFORMANCE CRATE ENGINE ASSEMBLY

only $18,150.00

# 605 hp supercharged 5.4L DOHC engine
# 550 lbs/ft of torque

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10261


I guaruntee it will be very streatable, relaible, and is bolt into any mod motor v8 drivetrain.

Forced Induction FTW!

[hotrodalex]

How about a SUPERCHARGED 5.4L - ROMEO 605 FORD RACING PERFORMANCE CRATE ENGINE ASSEMBLY

only $18,150.00

# 605 hp supercharged 5.4L DOHC engine
# 550 lbs/ft of torque

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10261


I guaruntee it will be very streatable, relaible, and is bolts into any mod motor v8 drivetrain.

How about an N/A engine making more power than that for only $13k?

http://www.jegs.com/p/Edelbrock/Edelbrock-Pat-Musi-555ci-650HP-Carbureted-Engine/887183/10002/-1

[SVT32V]

How about an N/A engine making more power than that for only $13k?

http://www.jegs.com/p/Edelbrock/Edelbrock-Pat-Musi-555ci-650HP-Carbureted-Engine/887183/10002/-1

Nice engine, although I would trust one from Ford or Chevy much more.

650 hp is only a blower pulley away on the Ford 5.4

Also as much as I like carbed engines, this is only legal in historic cars not anything late model, this one is an emissions fail.

[Cobra93]

Forced Induction FTW!

Since we're going there, how about an LS9?

[hotrodalex]

Since we're going there, how about an LS9?

I was actually going to post that next.

[S204STi]

Since we're going there, how about an LS9?

Might as well.  Only way to make big, streetable power seems to be a blower.

[r0tor]

how about the bugatti engine then...