WSJ article on new Camaro

[Nethead]

Okay.  I'll take a stab at this one.  Fraying Battery Cables?  Isn't that more a supplier issue?  The fascia that cracked was preproduction if memory serves correctly.  The lead weights, are only apparent on Brembo equipped models - so wouldn't that mean that Brembo is at fault, and not GM since they manufactured the calipers? All the other things are subjective, though my question is, why do you dislike the car so much?

Schadenfreude:  Dude, who do really think fucked the calipers up--Brembo, as outstanding as they come, or Chevrolet?  Come on, no bullshit now--do you REALLY think Brembo shipped those calipers to Chevrolet with lead weights stuck on them?  Tell me you don't!

Many manufacturers have chosen Brembos to stop some of their most publicized models--GT500s use Brembos and there ain't no lead weights stuck on their calipers--and not one of those manufacturers has ever received bubble-gum, duct-tape, and baling wire fixes on their Brembo calipers as is found on Camaro SS calipers (Check out the pics on the Camaro5 website--all members of the site who had purchased new Camaro SSs found these weights stuck onto their calipers!).  Please tell me you ain't in denial like CougsDude.  I'm just wondering if those lead weights aren't covering up a serious suspension/braking problem that GM made sure not to recall until AFTER bankruptcy was filed in order to shift the big, expensive fix off onto the taxpayers who now hafta cough up ninety percent of all warranty costs on all GM vehicles.  Clearly, GM's attorneys are sharper than their chassis & drivetrain engineers!  Sharper, too, than the government types who agreed to use tax dollars for GM's warranty costs to protect GM from customer concerns of warranty coverage from a bankrupt auto manufacturer .
 
So, do you think Chevy got frayed battery cables from some supplier and chose to install them anyway, even though those cables pose a genuine fire hazard?  Come on, you know better than that--even GoCougs probably knows might know better than that!  And if that was the case, how come Chevy recalled all V8 Camaros and put in longer battery cables if the problem was merely proper length cables that happened to have been delivered to the Oshawa factory in frayed condition?  You really, really can't believe that shit, surely?  I think it was 565 It was R-inge who copied and posted the seven-page fix from the Camaro service bulletin.    

Were the cracked fascias being reported on only preproduction Camaros?  I dunno.  GM suspects the fascias weren't bolted properly to a support bracket.  'Sounds plausible--in which case I hope the production versions are assembled by folks who know what bolts and brackets are and how to insert Bolt (A) through Hole (B) in Fascia (C) and then through Hole (D) in Bracket (E), followed by sliding lockwasher (F) onto Bolt (A) and fastening securely by screwing nut (G) onto Bolt (A) in a clockwise direction until tight.  Any questions?

Why do I dislike the Camaro so much?  Because it's an imitation of another manufacturer's success story--once again scrambling for the crumbs dropped from the Mustang's table just like forty years ago (Stupidity. Repeats. Itself.)--hastily cobbled up to satisfy ill-conceived corporate logic that "if it worked forty years ago it'll work today" which got GM where it is today--bankrupt and surviving only on intravenous tax dollars.  Even the swoopy bodywork is just a '71 Celica ST that's been stretched a foot, widened about eight inches, has the bumpers painted body color instead of chromed, and has the inner pair of headlights removed.  Oh, yeah--Chevy added gills ahead of the rear wheel openings so you'll know it ain't a Chip Foose '71 Celica ST.

The company that brought us the '55-'57 Chevy, the '63 fuel-injected 327 Stingray, the '63 Riviera, the '64/'66/'68 GTO, and the '66 Toronado & SS-396 has been reduced to re-badging imports and cranking out low-budget imitations of the successful products of its competitors.  I am ashamed, and you should be...

In the end, these words will be chiseled on the GM tombstone:  "Profit Through Imitation".  

If it wasn't for "Barack Obama and his horde of Socialists", this tombstone would ALREADY have a prominent site in the graveyard of failed automobile companies.  

It's only a matter of time...  

[ChrisV]

The company that brought us the '55-'57 Chevy, the '63 fuel-injected 327 Stingray, the '63 Riviera, the '64/'66/'68 GTO, and the '66 Toronado & SS-396 has been reduced to re-badging imports and cranking out low-budget imitations of the successful products of its competitors.  I am ashamed, and you should be...

In the end, these words will be chiseled on the GM tombstone:  "Profit Through Imitation". 

Well, to be fair, everybody DID say they needed to be more like Toyota...

[GoCougs]

LOL - and the non-Brembo Camaro does not have weights. It was clearly a Brembo screw-up.

Imitation and crumbs? Nethead forgets that between '67 and '02 the F-body was more successful (i.e., sold more) than the Mustang/Capri.

Nethead hates the Camaro because it is the better car.

[SVT666]

Nethead hates the Camaro because it is the better car.

From what I've read, the Camaro barely squeezes out the wins over the Mustang.  If the Mustang had more power it would probably be the winner.  In fact C&D already picked it in one comparo over the Camaro.

[Nethead]

LOL - and the non-Brembo Camaro does not have weights. It was clearly a Brembo screw-up.

Imitation and crumbs? Nethead forgets that between '67 and '02 the F-body was more successful (i.e., sold more) than the Mustang/Capri.

Nethead hates the Camaro because it is the better car.

A GoCougs classic denial response!  According to GoCougs, Brembo delivered bogus calipers to Chevrolet, AND CHEVROLET CHOSE TO INSTALL THEM ANYWAY!!!  That's scary...I suppose all the other manufacturers in the world who offer Brembos employ only those assemblers with the innate intelligence to remove the bogus lead weights before shipping their vehicles to the dealerships--Chevrolet is not nearly so discriminatory against its assemblers...

And the rest of your statement about the early sales of Mustang imitations was verified as true by no less than P.T. Barnum hisself:  "There's an F-Body customer born every minute!"  The market for the new Camaro may be bigger than I thought--a lot of minutes have come and gone since 2002...    

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Why do we keep repeating ourselves? We all know the 'Stang keeps up with the SS because of gearing and the "Track Pack". We all know the SS has the goddamn weights on the calipers! We all know the SS has way more power than the 'Stang and is cheaper (Track Pack version) than the 'Stang!We all know the 'Stang won the comparo in CnD! Who cares?  WTF!!! Quit repeating the same bullshit post after post! All the members of this forum have picked side so the trolling can end! Please let it end!!!!!!

[Cobra93]

LOL - and the non-Brembo Camaro does not have weights. It was clearly a Brembo screw-up.

Imitation and crumbs? Nethead forgets that between '67 and '02 the F-body was more successful (i.e., sold more) than the Mustang/Capri.

Nethead hates the Camaro because it is the better car.

You know, as obnoxious as Nethead can be in his fanboy-ism, you're continued parroting of this 67-02 F-body to Mustang/Capri statistic isn't much better. Is there anyone on this site that DOESN'T know that the Mustang based Capri was only produced 8 of those 35 years? It would be just as obnoxious of me to point out that the Mustang ALONE has outsold the F-body duo from 1965-2010, while ignoring the fact that the F-body duo wasn't even produced for 10 of those years....

My apologies if this is considered trolling.

[Cookie Monster]

My apologies if this is considered trolling.

It is.

Please pack your things and leave immediately.

[ifcar]

You know, as obnoxious as Nethead can be in his fanboy-ism, you're continued parroting of this 67-02 F-body to Mustang/Capri statistic isn't much better. Is there anyone on this site that DOESN'T know that the Mustang based Capri was only produced 8 of those 35 years? It would be just as obnoxious of me to point out that the Mustang ALONE has outsold the F-body duo from 1965-2010, while ignoring the fact that the F-body duo wasn't even produced for 10 of those years....

My apologies if this is considered trolling.

To be fair, it's not as if the Camaro wouldn't have sold better if there had been no Firebird.

[Cobra93]

It is.

Please pack your things and leave immediately.

[Cobra93]

To be fair, it's not as if the Camaro wouldn't have sold better if there had been no Firebird.

So you're saying that the Camaro would have sold more than the Camaro and Firebird combined if there were no Firebird?

[SVT666]

So you're saying that the Camaro would have sold more than the Camaro and Firebird combined if there were no Firebird?

I know people who own Firebirds who would rather buy a Mustang before owning a Camaro.  Then again I also know people who own GMC pickups who wouldn't be caught dead in a Chevy.  Go figure.

[ifcar]

So you're saying that the Camaro would have sold more than the Camaro and Firebird combined if there were no Firebird?

Where did I say anything like that?

[GoCougs]

You know, as obnoxious as Nethead can be in his fanboy-ism, you're continued parroting of this 67-02 F-body to Mustang/Capri statistic isn't much better. Is there anyone on this site that DOESN'T know that the Mustang based Capri was only produced 8 of those 35 years? It would be just as obnoxious of me to point out that the Mustang ALONE has outsold the F-body duo from 1965-2010, while ignoring the fact that the F-body duo wasn't even produced for 10 of those years....

My apologies if this is considered trolling.

I realize it does little good to argue with crazy, but it's a correct and pertinent fact that more than few did/do not know.

[Cobra93]

Where did I say anything like that?

It appears as though you said that in your last post. What was your point?

[ifcar]

It appears as though you said that in your last post. What was your point?

That the Camaro would have sold more had there been no Firebird, not that it would have sold more than the two of them put together had there been no Firebird. That's why it's not all that relevant that the Capri was short-lived.

[Cobra93]

I realize it does little good to argue with crazy,

Boy. Don't we know it.

but it's a correct and pertinent fact that more than few did/do not know.

It's also a correct and pertinent fact that the Mustang alone has outsold the F-body duo. 

[Cobra93]

That the Camaro would have sold more had there been no Firebird, not that it would have sold more than the two of them put together had there been no Firebird. That's why it's not all that relevant that the Capri was short-lived.

Which means that in all likelihood, the Mustang would have handily outsold the Camaro.
Ok. Let's try it this way. Since we don't have any idea how many Camaros would have sold in the absence of the Firebird, Let's take the total units sold by each camp and divide them by the years the cars were in production:

Mustang & Capri = 6,967,777/43 = 162,041 units/production year  (35 yrs of Mustangs, 8 yrs of Capris)
Camaro & Firebird = 7,473,064/68 = 109,989 units/production year  (35 yrs of Camaros, 33 yrs of Firebirds)

These numbers were all borrowed from GoCougs data in another thread. In addition, GoCougs conveniently chooses to ignore Mustangs sold from 64 1/2 through 66(over a million right there) and from 2003-2009. Does this help explain why I have a problem with that 67-02 statistic?

[ifcar]

Which means that in all likelihood, the Mustang would have handily outsold the Camaro.
Ok. Let's try it this way. Since we don't have any idea how many Camaros would have sold in the absence of the Firebird, Let's take the total units sold by each camp and divide them by the years the cars were in production:

Mustang & Capri = 6,967,777/43 = 162,041 units/production year  (35 yrs of Mustangs, 8 yrs of Capris)
Camaro & Firebird = 7,473,064/68 = 109,989 units/production year  (35 yrs of Camaros, 33 yrs of Firebirds)

These numbers were all borrowed from GoCougs data in another thread. In addition, GoCougs conveniently chooses to ignore Mustangs sold from 64 1/2 through 66(over a million right there) and from 2003-2009. Does this help explain why I have a problem with that 67-02 statistic?

Of course. But I can see where he's coming from with it, too.

[Minpin]

Of course. But I can see where he's coming from with it, too.

Right, he is picking and choosing years to make his statistics "prove" his point.

[Cobra93]

Of course. But I can see where he's coming from with it, too.

Good. Then you understand why some people shouldn't accuse others of rabid fanboyism.

[ifcar]

Right, he is picking and choosing years to make his statistics "prove" his point.

It's not completely unreasonable to only compare the sales when both did exist. Otherwise you could say, for example, that the Nissan Sentra is more popular than the Ford Fusion (random example) because it's been on sale for many more years.

Of course, doing so ignores such factors as pent-up demand -- had the Mustang also gone on sale in 1967 it would have had the novelty factor then instead of years before.

So neither way is perfect, but there are merits to both.

[GoCougs]

I thought this was closed but apparently not - it is objective fact. This is not a commentary on which car is preferred or which is better - it simply puts an end to the continued anti-Camaro/F-body bile WRT to sales success Nethead feels is so important in determining which is the better car.

I prefer the Camaro slightly more '67-'70, I prefer the Camaro infinitely more '71-'78, I prefer the Mustang '79-'02, and I prefer the Camaro '10+. Looking at another "statistic" I prefer the Mustang more often than not, so the recitation of this objective statistic cannot be fanboyism by yours truly.

[SVT666]

I thought this was closed but apparently not - it is objective fact. This is not a commentary on which car is preferred or which is better - it simply puts an end to the continued anti-Camaro/F-body bile WRT to sales success Nethead feels is so important in determining which is the better car.

I prefer the Camaro slightly more '67-'70, I prefer the Camaro infinitely more '71-'78, I prefer the Mustang '79-'02, and I prefer the Camaro '10+. Looking at another "statistic" I prefer the Mustang more often than not, so the recitation of this objective statistic cannot be fanboyism by yours truly.

I don't know Cougs.  You dismiss anything that says the Mustang's steering and handling are better then the new Camaro's despite virtually every comparo states it.

[GoCougs]

I don't know Cougs.  You dismiss anything that says the Mustang's steering and handling are better then the new Camaro's despite virtually every comparo states it.

I'm not sure how this is a relevant comment to my post, but being the friendly guy that I am I'll address it.

I don't dismiss it, I simply don't care - steering is irrelevant to me, and the Track Pack sounds to stiff/loud for me. And even if neither was true (i.e., I did care about steering and the Track Pack didn't have a ride/RPM penalty), the Camaro SS is far faster, doesn't cost material more, and I much prefer its styling.

Case closed for yours truly, no matter how you rack it and stack it; I like the Camaro far more.

[SVT666]

I'm not sure how this is a relevant comment to my post, but being the friendly guy that I am I'll address it.

I don't dismiss it, I simply don't care - steering is irrelevant to me, and the Track Pack sounds to stiff/loud for me. And even if neither was true (i.e., I did care about steering and the Track Pack didn't have a ride/RPM penalty), the Camaro SS is far faster, doesn't cost material more, and I much prefer its styling.

Case closed for yours truly, no matter how you rack it and stack it; I like the Camaro far more.

Steering is irrelevant?  Also, you have yet to show me anywhere that states the Track Pack is too stiff and loud.  I haven't read that anywhere.  In fact I have read that the Track Pack handles mid-corner bumps just as well as the IRS equipped Camaro.  Admit it Cougs, you are as much a Camaro fanboy as I am a Mustang fanboy.

[GoCougs]

Steering is irrelevant?  Also, you have yet to show me anywhere that states the Track Pack is too stiff and loud.  I haven't read that anywhere.  In fact I have read that the Track Pack handles mid-corner bumps just as well as the IRS equipped Camaro.  Admit it Cougs, you are as much a Camaro fanboy as I am a Mustang fanboy.

Uh, I said TO ME steering is irrelevant, and I said TO ME the Track Pack sounds too aggressive (been down this road before). Even if neither is/was true it is irrelevant. I simply much prefer the '10 because it is much faster and I think it looks a lot better. No fanboyism, just fact and preference.

[Raza]

Steering is irrelevant to you?

You know you use it to steer the car.  And it's a great source of information as to what is going on with your wheels.  I don't care how fast or sharp a car is, if the steering doesn't give you good feedback, you're not going to feel comfortable using its performance.

[MX793]

Okay.  I'll take a stab at this one.  Fraying Battery Cables?  Isn't that more a supplier issue?  The fascia that cracked was preproduction if memory serves correctly.  The lead weights, are only apparent on Brembo equipped models - so wouldn't that mean that Brembo is at fault, and not GM since they manufactured the calipers? All the other things are subjective, though my question is, why do you dislike the car so much?

A word of advice since you're relatively new here:

DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN BALL!!!!

[GoCougs]

Steering is irrelevant to you?

You know you use it to steer the car.  And it's a great source of information as to what is going on with your wheels.  I don't care how fast or sharp a car is, if the steering doesn't give you good feedback, you're not going to feel comfortable using its performance.

Perhaps stating that steering is irrelevant is a bit drastic; and there is a profound gulf between recirc ball (of which I've owned many) and rack-n-pinion (of which I've owned a few), but beyond that it is a non-issue in the face of ride, shift action, acceleration, styling, or price.

How do you know what I am comfortable using or not using? I like 99% of this forum, am unable to drive an even relatively mundane performance car (Mustang GT, Genesis Coupe, etc.) anything above about 7/10s, meaning, steering "feel" is a non-issue of achieving that performance level.