Alfa Romeo CEO: MiTo probably not headed to U.S.

[Cookie Monster]

Oh, and Wimmer, the history and heritage that brings the malfunctions and electric failures makes the decision of so many people I know who jumped ship from MB to Lexus rather logical.

I'd never buy a Lexus, but I'm not so sure I'd buy an MB either.



GO BMW GO

I would love an IS250.

I'd probably take one over a 328i.

[CALL_911]

I would love an IS250.

I'd probably take one over a 328i.

I wouldn't.

But I don't hate the IS250.

[Cookie Monster]

I wouldn't.

But I don't hate the IS250.

There are too many BMW's around here.

[CALL_911]

There are too many BMW's around here.

IS250s are ridiculously popular with annoying college girls.

That's not to say 328s aren't, but I've noticed more IS's. At least around here.

[cawimmer430]

Is that for a real or is it a joke?

I made that up...

[cawimmer430]

Really? Because every time you criticize a magazine it just happens to coincide with a bad review of a Mercedes.

Evidence please. Because I personally don't give a damn where a Mercedes finishes in a comparison test. Did I complain about the SLK350 being last place in that recent comparison found in the fast lane section? Nope. Because I know the SLK is still a cruiser at heart and not fully devoted to the sport ideal.

Most magazines are biased towards sport so a Mercedes will generally never finish top. What bothers me is that other qualities of certain cars are left out and the focus is purely on sport. Car and Driver makes it sound as if sport is the focus in every single class: economy cars, SUVs, wheelchairs... you name it. 

Car and Driver caters to the sporty crowd, fine, but they seem to overlook things that matter too because not everyone in the US cares about 0-60 or 1/4 mile times or if their engine is packing over 300-horsepower. There's more to a car than sheer performance and I think that most Mercedes customers and owners in the US are open-minded enough to realize that. I got that impression from several of their comments on the IHT news site in regards to Mercedes exploring the idea of bringing over smaller engines.

And that's good for Mercedes how?

There will always be people around who want a Benz or are loyal to the brand. People are willing to pay for a name. This isn't only the case in the car business.

[cawimmer430]

Isn't that pricing issue how Lexus came and scorched MB's ass to begin with?

The Japanese have always focused on cheaper pricing with value-for-money as their selling point. The strategy of MB is that they have the name, the history and thus can charge what they do for their products. Very simple.

If you're always checking every penny in your wallet, then seriously go buy Kia.

Oh, and Wimmer, the history and heritage that brings the malfunctions and electric failures makes the decision of so many people I know who jumped ship from MB to Lexus rather logical.

You know, I am so sick of that shit. MB has over 100 years of history building reliable and high quality cars. They then experience 7-10 years of bad luck with cars that are not up to the usual MB standards. The result? Every fucking asshole who thinks they know something about cars then goes ahead and claims that "Mercedes has always built unreliable cars..." bla bla bla. Replace Mercedes with Audi, BMW, Porsche...hell, GERMAN or EUROPEAN.

You know my position on Lexus - overpriced Toyota with no history. Sorry, that's not a luxury brand in my book.




I like JD Powers Germany better.   

The point is that MB quality has gone back up big time. And hasn't Lexus quality dropped? I think we've even seen these facts mentioned in JD Powers USA and the infamous Consumer Reports...


Mercedes-Benz Tops Premium Brands In J.D. Power and Associates 09' Germany VOSS Study

OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE

*Mercedes-Benz Has the Most Satisfied Customers in the Premium Segment

* Mercedes-Benz brand scores highest among the premium brands for the service satisfaction factor, in the J.D. Power and Associates VOSS study for Germany

* Mercedes-Benz customer satisfaction initiative pays off

Stuttgart ? Mercedes-Benz has the most satisfied customers in the premium segment: In the Service Satisfaction category of the latest J.D. Power and Associates 2009 Germany VOSS Study, the brand with the star ranks highest among the premium brands. The J.D. Power survey evaluates overall vehicle ownership satisfaction in the categories of Vehicle Quality, Vehicle Appeal, Vehicle Ownership Costs and Service Satisfaction. This year?s survey polled 16,283 drivers in Germany online with regard to aspects such as service consultant friendliness, service facility conditions, and the thoroughness of work performed. Across all assessment categories for service satisfaction, Mercedes-Benz performed well above the industry average. Mercedes-Benz finished fourth in the overall industry ranking of the J.D. Power survey?s service satisfaction factor.

?We?re very pleased with our good performance in this informative study,? says Dr. Klaus Maier, Executive Vice President Sales and Marketing Mercedes-Benz Cars. ?The result shows us that customers really appreciate the commitment our people bring to the job every day, as well as our staff?s ongoing enthusiasm for the Mercedes-Benz brand and our long term-oriented quality concept.?

The good performance of the Mercedes-Benz service team in Germany had been confirmed last year by no less than four service center tests, with the brand receiving top marks in the tests conducted by the AUTO BILD and AUTOZEITUNG newspapers, the ADAC automobile club, and the magazine auto, motor und sport.

Three years ago Mercedes-Benz launched a program to boost customer satisfaction with its sales and service. This program, which has since been implemented worldwide, consists of activities and projects that address direct customer contact management and process and system optimization. Mercedes-Benz is also improving its service performance through intensive, continual and long-term training measures, with some 150,000 service employees having already participated in training programs to date. This effort has paid off, as customer satisfaction with Mercedes-Benz service has improved significantly in nearly all markets since the program was launched.

In addition to its great performance in the service satisfaction factor of the study the brand with the star also performed outstandingly in the vehicle quality satisfaction factor. The survey showed that drivers of the Mercedes-Benz CLK model are more satisfied with their vehicles than owners of any other Sports Car in the study. Meanwhile, the Mercedes-Benz E-Class from the 211 series ranks highest in the Executive/Luxury Car segment.

Customers know best, which is why J. D. Power and Associates, which was founded in 1968, has been regularly assessing automobile owner satisfaction. The company operates around the globe and has its headquarters in Los Angeles. The participants in J. D. Power?s 2009 study were required to have driven their vehicles for around two years and clocked approximately 30,000 kilometers. The resulting report was therefore able to utilize data based on nearly 500 million kilometers of driving. A total of 1 13 models, divided into eight segments, were assessed in the 2009 report from J. D. Power, whose survey results are known to help consumers make purchasing decisions.

Copyright ? 2009, Daimler AG


Link: http://emercedesbenz.com/Jul09/30_001700_Mercedes_Benz_Tops_Premium_Brands_In_JD_Power_And_Associates_2009_Germany_VOSS_Study.html

[CALL_911]

The Japanese have always focused on cheaper pricing with value-for-money as their selling point. The strategy of MB is that they have the name, the history and thus can charge what they do for their products. Very simple.

If you're always checking every penny in your wallet, then seriously go buy Kia.



You know, I am so sick of that shit. MB has over 100 years of history building reliable and high quality cars. They then experience 7-10 years of bad luck with cars that are not up to the usual MB standards. The result? Every fucking asshole who thinks they know something about cars then goes ahead and claims that "Mercedes has always built unreliable cars..." bla bla bla. Replace Mercedes with Audi, BMW, Porsche...hell, GERMAN or EUROPEAN.

You know my position on Lexus - overpriced Toyota with no history. Sorry, that's not a luxury brand in my book.

This may be news to you, but buyers of luxury cars care somewhat about pragmatism. MB has the name, so they can do whatever they like? LOL. Maybe that's why Lexus is outselling them in the US. Like I said in another post, no one gives two shits about history in heritage in an E-Class or a C-Class. Also, let's use Raza's family as an example. MB history and heritage lead them to be repeat buyers of S-Classes. But history and heritage means jack shit when your 13 year old car is in the shop, needing a new $20,000 engine. What did Raza's Dad do? Bought a Lexus. Who knows, in another 50 years or so, Lexus' history and heritage may rival MB's, as they make quality products, and have done so since the first LS400 rolled off the assembly line. MB seems to think they can rest on their name alone, and maybe that's why Lexus is doing better than they are right now. I'm not saying I like Lexus more than MB (I certainly do NOT), but you're being ridiculous.

One more thing. I don't care if you've had 100 years of making amazing cars if the one you sold me was a piece.

I'm at work, so I can't find numbers or statistics right now, but I'm pretty sure Lexus is ahead of MB in most reliability and quality surveys. Hell, they're probably ahead of my favorite luxury marque (BMW, I can't include Porsche). No one cares what you did 100 years ago, if what you're doing now is worse than that of the "young" competition (e.g. Lexus).

Overpriced Toyota with no history? By that same argument, a few years ago, what made MB different from an overpriced Chrysler?

Many of Lexus' cars have their own platforms, with the exceptions of the ES, GX, RX, LX. The IS, GS, LS and SC each have their own platform, not really a "rebadged Toyota" as you tell yourself.

I realize Mercedes hasn't always made unreliable cars, and what more, I really do like vintage MBs, and new ones too (hell, I still drool everytime I see a W116 on the road, and I still lust after a W124 E500, and numerous other older MBs)! But when they are making, for lack of a better term, shit compared to the competition (I realize this is a generalization, and MB is not shitty in the least), the history and heritage thing is quite an easy card to pull, isn't it? In fact isn't it shameful that the new guy makes better quality stuff than the people who've had "100 years of experience?"


Disclaimer: I'm a German car nut. I will always be. But you do have to give credit where it's due, and take away where it's not.

[cawimmer430]

This may be news to you, but buyers of luxury cars care somewhat about pragmatism. MB has the name, so they can do whatever they like? LOL. Maybe that's why Lexus is outselling them in the US. Like I said in another post, no one gives two shits about history in heritage in an E-Class or a C-Class. Also, let's use Raza's family as an example. MB history and heritage lead them to be repeat buyers of S-Classes. But history and heritage means jack shit when your 13 year old car is in the shop, needing a new $20,000 engine. What did Raza's Dad do? Bought a Lexus. Who knows, in another 50 years or so, Lexus' history and heritage may rival MB's, as they make quality products, and have done so since the first LS400 rolled off the assembly line. MB seems to think they can rest on their name alone, and maybe that's why Lexus is doing better than they are right now. I'm not saying I like Lexus more than MB (I certainly do NOT), but you're being ridiculous.

The first LS400 competed with the W126 S-Class: a car that was brought unto the market in 1979 and whose development reaches back to 1972. 1972. The engines in the W126 S-Class were carry-over motors whose development and design layout reached back until the 1960s. Sure, the LS400 was an amazing car and I like it too (my favorite Lexus), but it was also heavily overrated because it essentially was compared to cars that were at the end of their product life cycle. The W126 S-Class was produced until 1991 and then the W140 took over.

Also, while I like the LS400 from the exterior, the inside feels like a 1980s Toyota. There is absolutely nothing luxurious about its interior from a styling POV. It looks and feels like the generic high-level Japanese car of the 1980s and early 1990s on the inside.


And I've said it before, HISTORY and HERITAGE are important to a lot of people. The C-Class and E-Class have it and it is a great way to market a car. The C-Class descended from the popular 190-Series while the E-Class can be claimed to have descended from a model that in the late 1940s was both an "E-Class" and "S-Class" at the same time. Look at Lexus with their GS. IMO that's a car looking for a mission. It's too cramped to be a real E-Class rival and there just doesn't seem to be any focus on the family. The GS strikes me as a luxury COUPE with four doors. On the other hand the mission statement and target market of the E-Class seems very clear and if we're honest the E-Class, even the W211, was a far more appealing car than the Lexus GS when you consider overall balance, interior and trunk space, engine options etc.

One more thing. I don't care if you've had 100 years of making amazing cars if the one you sold me was a piece.

Then why the "always has made unreliable cars" comments? I realize these people are idiots but come on, their bullshit comments are believed by people who know nothing about cars because the idiot who said it happens to be the "car nut" in the family or circle of friends. 

I'm at work, so I can't find numbers or statistics right now, but I'm pretty sure Lexus is ahead of MB in most reliability and quality surveys. Hell, they're probably ahead of my favorite luxury marque (BMW, I can't include Porsche). No one cares what you did 100 years ago, if what you're doing now is worse than that of the "young" competition (e.g. Lexus).

I read the Club Lexus forums purely out of interest in what they say about other cars and their Lexus. You'd be surprised at the amount of criticism Lexus gets from some of their most ardent supporters. The GS, SC and GX are especially flamed for being outdated, uncompetitive and "not needed" (GX, SC a bit...). And there have been several threads about Lexus quality dipping (and German car quality rising). Several owners have complained about Lexus cheapening out on several things like interiors, this and that.

Don't believe me? Go to Club Lexus and read those boards. And read the posts from the surprisingly many objective members there, not the fanboys.

Overpriced Toyota with no history? By that same argument, a few years ago, what made MB different from an overpriced Chrysler?

Show me where Mercedes' used Chrysler parts for their cars. It was the other way around.

Look, you know I don't like Lexus. I can respect them for what they are but I would never buy one because they don't appeal to me. A brand has to stand for something, it has to be exciting in a way for me. Lexus stands for reliability and value (though the Lexus fans are complaining about that) but that's really it. There's nothing exciting about the brand.

Have you ever been to the Mercedes Museum in Stuttgart? I guarantee you that once you pay that place a visit you'll have more respect for MB and maybe you can SEE MY POINT OF VIEW. It's the same with the BMW and Porsche Museums etc.

There's a Toyota Museum I plan on visiting here in Germany because Toyota is a company that made stylish products in the past (not anymore) and I think I can educate myself and find some new respect for them by doing this. But Lexus? There's nothing remotely interesting about that brand.

Many of Lexus' cars have their own platforms, with the exceptions of the ES, GX, RX, LX. The IS, GS, LS and SC each have their own platform, not really a "rebadged Toyota" as you tell yourself.

It's a way of "making of fun" of Lexus. I realize that Lexus has tried to distance themselves from Toyota in some ways, but they seem to be failing at that in recent times. LX570 and HS250h ring a bell? No doubt, great products but the design just screams "Toyota". I thought they did a good job with the GS and LS and IS because those didn't look like a Toyota, but the ES, LX, GX and the RX and the new HS have "Toyota design" written all over them. Do you agree?

I realize Mercedes hasn't always made unreliable cars, and what more, I really do like vintage MBs, and new ones too (hell, I still drool everytime I see a W116 on the road, and I still lust after a W124 E500, and numerous other older MBs)! But when they are making, for lack of a better term, shit compared to the competition (I realize this is a generalization, and MB is not shitty in the least), the history and heritage thing is quite an easy card to pull, isn't it? In fact isn't it shameful that the new guy makes better quality stuff than the people who've had "100 years of experience?"

What exactly is "quality"? Because a Lexus and Mercedes are both quality products. One has better reliability. I see quality and reliability as two different things. Mercedes quality IMO remained pretty constant during the "bad years" but their reliability took a dive. Thankfully it is back up and becoming better.

A Lada Niva or Lada 1200 are not the best quality cars on the market but they're very reliable. Rust is an issue, the interior panel gaps are extreme and the materials are cheap but the engine, transmission, suspension etc. are reliable. The body will rust and fade away but the mechanical components will go on and on. See my point about quality and reliability?

[hotrodalex]

This is how all future comparisons should be made:

Completely wipe the judges memory. They don't know what a Lexus, Benz, BMW, etc even are. They could be the world's first toaster maker for all they know.

Then have them compare every aspect of the cars. Engine, suspension/handling, braking, cruising comfort, interior comfort, practicality (also ease of use - the first generation of iDrive would fail...), any gadgets, price, etc.

[NomisR]

I made that up...

Not far from the truth though.

[cawimmer430]

Not far from the truth though.

I should be a writer for Consumer Reports. 

[Raza]

Oh, and Wimmer, the history and heritage that brings the malfunctions and electric failures makes the decision of so many people I know who jumped ship from MB to Lexus rather logical.

I'd never buy a Lexus, but I'm not so sure I'd buy an MB either.



GO BMW GO

[CALL_911]

The IS-F's grown on me, a lot.

That said,

[jadewolf123]

The IS-F's grown on me, a lot.

That said,

Is that the Rhys Millen IS430. DO WANT.

[CALL_911]

Is that the Rhys Millen IS430. DO WANT.

Yeah and +1

[hotrodalex]

> Lexus

[CALL_911]

> Lexus