C/D comparison: A6, 535i, M45, XF, E350

[Hachee]

When it comes to cars like this, it's not necessarily a matter of outright "affordability".  Many of these cars are leased, and lessees and buyers often have a budget, or at least a number they think is reasonable to spend on a car, and don't see the point of spending more.  The extra $10,000 grand or so to get a 550 (or $200 per month on a lease) is not going to break the bank for most of these buyers.  But, as Raza said, it's insurance, and gas, and for most, the 6 cylinder versions are sufficient for their needs.  For some people, these cars a stretch, and the extra money does make a difference.

And maybe this is annectodal, but I can tell you, I live in very affluent community where, literally, the majority of people have cars like these.  And in my age group - early 40s, with young kids - there are way more 5 Series and A6's than E-Classes.  Most everyone has some kind of 7 seat SUV, whether it's a Pilot, LR3, Volvo XV90, MDX, X5 and now loads of MB GL's, and one other car, usually an A4/A6 or 3/5, with just a few C's and E's.  I like Benzes, but I actually feel "too young" for an E Class (although that hasn't stopped me from wanting a '95 E320 Cab).

And TBR is right when it comes to Lexus - unless you're an enthusiast, most people have a positive image of it and don't see it as an old person's car (except for maybe the LS). 

[Submariner]

So what you are saying is that price is irrelevant? Right...

Everything is relative and relatively speaking the E350 is underpowered. You also seem to be ignoring their other complaint, the handling. While German sedans like it, more likely than not it was detuned for the USA. While the average buyer might appreciate that, Car and Driver isn't for the average buyer. Let's face it, the average buyer of these cars is more likely to read car reviews from a magazine like Forbes so it makes sense for them to focus on what's important to enthusiasts. Furthermore, it could have fallen short on many less important areas (to C/D) like ergonomics and styling, which wouldn't be reflected in the Pros/Cons since there's only so much room. Seems to me like you should actually read the review before you condemn them.

Wimmer has somewhat of a point though.  Many people don't care about extra power, simply adequate power.  However, these car's must be compared somehow, and to a decent amount of people in this class, 0-60 does matter. 

I am mystified about the bit about the Jag's shifter, how complicated can a knob be? For me it would be between the XF and A6.

Especially when you're given paddles...

[TBR]

Wimmer has somewhat of a point though.  Many people don't care about extra power, simply adequate power.  However, these car's must be compared somehow, and to a decent amount of people in this class, 0-60 does matter. 

Car and Driver isn't for most people, it is for people who do care about performance.

[cawimmer430]

Whenever Car and Driver has compared the E-Class to its rivals, I seem to recall that the car has always finished last or at most in midtable. Only once do I recall the E-Class winning against the 5er, M45 and maybe the Lexus GS and I was quite surprised when the magazine reviewed these cars not solely based on performance. They claimed the E-Class was well balanced and offered good quality comfort, safety, features and performance (this was a W211 E550 they tested too if I recall correctly). Like I said, I was very surprised that the E-Class won this comparison given Car and Driver's hard on for BMW's and Infiniti's and especially this late in the W211 E-Class's product life cycle.

I don't have a problem with the E-Class finishing last in a review like this but I do have a problem with the constant nagging about how the E350 is "underpowered" when it isn't. It just looks weaker than its competitors on paper but in real life I'm sure it doesn't disappoint. And like I said, based on what I know most buyers here care more about creature comforts, safety and everything else and not raw performance. Over 90% of the people commenting in this thread are not even the target market of any of the cars compared here. You care about 0-60, the people who buy these cars might generally not be as crazy about this since they're not enthusiasts like us. Also, is an E350 really that "slow"? You can "safely merge unto an American highway" with it, right?

Seriously, some of the driving problems in the US can be solved with proper driving training and serious driving schools like we have here for example. It's standard practice to make way for cars coming unto the Autobahn by moving into the left lane, overtaking the new drivers who are accelerating and then pulling in in front of them after creating a safety distance between you and them. Not sure how things work in the US  but based on all the complaints here about "left lane hoggers" it seems that you guys need better driving schools. The US could save so much on energy imports if this were the case...

[CJ]

I'd have an S80.

[Submariner]

Whenever Car and Driver has compared the E-Class to its rivals, I seem to recall that the car has always finished last or at most in midtable. Only once do I recall the E-Class winning against the 5er, M45 and maybe the Lexus GS and I was quite surprised when the magazine reviewed these cars not solely based on performance. They claimed the E-Class was well balanced and offered good quality comfort, safety, features and performance (this was a W211 E550 they tested too if I recall correctly). Like I said, I was very surprised that the E-Class won this comparison given Car and Driver's hard on for BMW's and Infiniti's and especially this late in the W211 E-Class's product life cycle.

I don't have a problem with the E-Class finishing last in a review like this but I do have a problem with the constant nagging about how the E350 is "underpowered" when it isn't. It just looks weaker than its competitors on paper but in real life I'm sure it doesn't disappoint. And like I said, based on what I know most buyers here care more about creature comforts, safety and everything else and not raw performance. Over 90% of the people commenting in this thread are not even the target market of any of the cars compared here. You care about 0-60, the people who buy these cars might generally not be as crazy about this since they're not enthusiasts like us. Also, is an E350 really that "slow"? You can "safely merge unto an American highway" with it, right?

Seriously, some of the driving problems in the US can be solved with proper driving training and serious driving schools like we have here for example. It's standard practice to make way for cars coming unto the Autobahn by moving into the left lane, overtaking the new drivers who are accelerating and then pulling in in front of them after creating a safety distance between you and them. Not sure how things work in the US  but based on all the complaints here about "left lane hoggers" it seems that you guys need better driving schools. The US could save so much on energy imports if this were the case...

I thought it's for people who don't like good automotive magazines, like Evo. 

[cawimmer430]

I thought it's for people who don't like good automotive magazines, like Evo. 

I don't like EVO. Way to performance biased and smartass-like in my opinion. Every car they test they test it as if it were meant to be driven on a track. I am convinced that if they were given a bus or a truck they're floor that sucker around a racetrack. 

Hell, I think I even prefer Car and Driver to EVO! 

[nickdrinkwater]

I don't like EVO. Way to performance biased and smartass-like in my opinion. Every car they test they test it as if it were meant to be driven on a track. I am convinced that if they were given a bus or a truck they're floor that sucker around a racetrack. 

Hell, I think I even prefer Car and Driver to EVO! 

Well, Evo is a performance car magazine.  And they can be smartarses, since they are the best magazine around.

[cawimmer430]

Well, Evo is a performance car magazine.  And they can be smartarses, since they are the best magazine around.

My point is that they test every car with this extreme performance criteria in mind. Some cars aren't made for that. Like the Mercedes S-Class for example. I'm not even talking about an AMG S-Class here but your average S500 S-Class. Who takes an S500 unto the track and then abuses the hell out of it? 

[CALL_911]

Wimmer, the others are just as comfortable, except they perform better.

If car A is as comfortable as car B, is faster, better handling, etc., but they both cost the same, why would you buy car B? The way I see it, that's why the E350 lost. It's not that it's intrinsically slow, it's that it's slow compared to its competitors.

[Submariner]

Wimmer, the others are just as comfortable, except they perform better.

If car A is as comfortable as car B, is faster, better handling, etc., but they both cost the same, why would you buy car B? The way I see it, that's why the E350 lost. It's not that it's intrinsically slow, it's that it's slow compared to its competitors.

Unless they dramatically changed the dynamics of the car, I doubt they rode better.  I know the M45 doesn't, nor does the 535, they both were tuned for more aggressive handling, and it showed in their rough ride.

However, being down on power is a valid complaint, especially when the E's competitors all have a good deal more power.  Why Mercedes doesn't bring over the DI 3.5 V-6 is beyond me, but it seems like a fairly straightforward way to get the power the base model needs.  After all, there is a 114 horsepower difference between the E350 and E550.  The gap shouldn't be that wide.

[CALL_911]

Unless they dramatically changed the dynamics of the car, I doubt they rode better.  I know the M45 doesn't, nor does the 535, they both were tuned for more aggressive handling, and it showed in their rough ride.

However, being down on power is a valid complaint, especially when the E's competitors all have a good deal more power.  Why Mercedes doesn't bring over the DI 3.5 V-6 is beyond me, but it seems like a fairly straightforward way to get the power the base model needs.  After all, there is a 114 horsepower difference between the E350 and E550.  The gap shouldn't be that wide.

The 5 really doesn't ride much rougher than the E-Class. Sure, it rides a little rougher, but nothing intolerable. We drove an E when we got our 5er.

My best friend's mom has an E350, and while it handles well, the 5er handles better. For the ride/handling tradeoff, IMO, BMW wins.

[the Teuton]

I never had any problems with the 5er's suspension.  Sure, it lets you know there's a road down there, but it's still fairly composed.

I know it's a different class altogether, but the new Ford Fusion, for example, positively isolates you from the road.  I'm sure people like that kind of refinement.  But if I'm buying a sports sedan, I want to at least be able to feel some of that "sports."

The mag does troll hard for BMW, though.

[565]

This is Car and Driver. They love horsepower. The more horsepower the quicker the editors reach their climaxes.  

Most reviews claim the E-Class is the best balanced car in this class. Comfortable, spacious, good handling and performance. Just well balanced. Yet Car and Driver has to of course abuse the hell out of it, drive it like it will never be driven and then complain about the "lack of performance". I find it hard to believe that an E350 is slow. Our E320 has less horsepower and is completely overpowered for most situations.

I also find the "I need horsepower highway merging" claim to be complete BS. Seriously, here in Europe merging unto the Autobahn with weaker cars is no problem. It's all part of DRIVER TRAINING AND EDUCATION - something American apparently has FAILED at.  

I love how you conclude Americans are untrained and uneducated because an American magazine rated the E class dead last.  

Clearly not everyone in Europe is satisfied with the V6 in the E class, otherwise Merc wouldn't bother making the V8 and even bigger V8 and charging MORE MONEY for it.

So is everyone who buys the V8 E class poor educated and untrained?  AMG buyers must be the dumbest and most incompetent shits on the planet.

[the Teuton]

For the same price as some of these, I'm sure you can pick up a CTS-V.  They should have thrown one of those into the comparo.

[Raza]

I don't like EVO. Way to performance biased and smartass-like in my opinion. Every car they test they test it as if it were meant to be driven on a track. I am convinced that if they were given a bus or a truck they're floor that sucker around a racetrack. 

Hell, I think I even prefer Car and Driver to EVO! 

They have put a bus on the track.

So has Top Gear.  (Evo also put a Sinclair C5, a sofa, and a Westfield in reverse around Bedford).

Evo's probably better written than any magazine out there.

What do you want the magazine to be biased towards?  Comfort and passenger space?  You should be reading Minivan Monthly then.

[the Teuton]

I do want to find out what the best luxury car is every now and then.  Automobile seems to be the best in that respect for US pubs.

[Raza]

I do want to find out what the best luxury car is every now and then.  Automobile seems to be the best in that respect for US pubs.

Then read the reviews and not just the rankings.  Some cars don't win comparisons, but are better at other cars in different respects.  Take the Accord/Camry/Altima trifecta.  The Camry is too soft, the Altima too stiff, and the Accord is the best compromise.  But what if you don't want to compromise your comfort for a better drive?  Then get that Camry.

If you look past the bullet points, you might get some real information. 

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, the others are just as comfortable, except they perform better.

If car A is as comfortable as car B, is faster, better handling, etc., but they both cost the same, why would you buy car B? The way I see it, that's why the E350 lost. It's not that it's intrinsically slow, it's that it's slow compared to its competitors.

Most sources state the E-Class is geneally the most comfortable car in its class because it focuses less on sport and thus there are no compromises in ride quality. Also, the handling of the new E-Class is just fine. It can satisfy a sporty driver (who really pushes these cars to the limit anyway?) but most people won't push it anyway. I've ridden in the current E60 5er (525d for almost two hours). It's comfortable, but I feel that even our W211 E320 blows it away in overall comfort - suspension and seat comfort.

Sure, the E350 is lagging behind from a performance POV but I don't really see it as a big issue. It's more something that performance biased car magazines keep ranting about. THIS IS MY OPINION. I think the performance is adequate. The engine is refined, quiet and it offers everything most buyers desire. Again, if they want more power they can easily buy an E550. Someone shopping or leasing in this class obviously has the purchasing power for either model.

[Colin]

So, today's "Autocar" has a three way comparison between the XF 3.0D (not the S model), the 530d and the Merc E350CDi. So, yes, the oil burners.

Remember that they already declared that the XF 3.0d S beat the 535d, so they clearly need a new "shock" story for journalistic effect and impact!

"As for the ?34,400 Mercedes E350CDI Avantgarde, if you're not immediately put off by the looks, you may find yourself dissuaded by its unapologetically sober (or middle-aged, as one tester put it) approach to every task you set."

"Sit in the BMW........ This is an environment focused on driving. In a BMW you'd hope for nothing less".

They go on to say that the Jaguar is "over-styled"

The test BMW had M Sport suspension, and that clearly does the ride no favours. They conclude the Merc is the quietest and it has the most space inside. There is nothing in it for performance for all of them.

They get to the conclusion....... "There is no need for any fanfare before the victor is revealed. It is the E350CDi, not through any overwhelming superiority but byjust being sufficiently better in sufficiently diverse areas of endeavour for any other verdict to be perverse. It is, however, the least attractive and will come with the least dynamic image, but if you can look past this, it is the best ar here".

They decide that the Jag just beats the BMW. They do say that the 530d is probably the best 5 series and the non S version of the 3.0D Jag probably the weakest.

Reading the full text, I can't help but feel that the choice between any one of these fine cars would come down to personal preference and your relative priorities of the slightly different approaches of the three cars. I doubt anyone who purchased any one of the three would feel let down or disappointed.

[cawimmer430]

I love how you conclude Americans are untrained and uneducated because an American magazine rated the E class dead last. 

Do I imply that? 

I said so many problems the US experiences can be solved through better driver training. One of the most common "excuses" (I think it is an excuse) I hear about the need for fast cars is this whole "highway merging" business. Bullshit. Bullshit. Seriously. This problem can be easily solved with the example I mentioned above. People in the slow lane should switch over to the fast lane to allow people to merge. It's that fucking simple.

Instead, all I hear is about the need for more faster cars for quicker merging bla bla bla. Well then, how about stopping at the end of the merging lane if there is no opportunity to enter the highway and waiting for the opportunity? That's what people here do if merging is problematic. Very simple.

Of course it is hard to get an honest answer here on this forum since everyone here is so power infatuated and sees my opinion as an attack on their freedom bla bla bla... 

Clearly not everyone in Europe is satisfied with the V6 in the E class, otherwise Merc wouldn't bother making the V8 and even bigger V8 and charging MORE MONEY for it.

Nobody here even buys the V8 or the V6. What sells here are 4- and 6-cylinder diesels. The E350 isn't common and an E550 is even less common. And no magazine here criticizes the E350 for a "lack of performance". Why? Because the performance is fine. So what if the Audi A6 3.0T or 535i are faster by a second for example? Big deal. I get the feeling that magazines in the US only test cars for performance - not only Car and Driver. Most European magazines (aside from maybe EVO...) focus on the qualities of the car, especially if they're testing luxury family cars like these. The description about performance is short. The details about trunk space, comfort etc. take precedence.

So is everyone who buys the V8 E class poor educated and untrained?  AMG buyers must be the dumbest and most incompetent shits on the planet.

Eh, how did this enter the topic? Maybe someone who wants more prestige or power goes for the E550 or the E63 AMG. A regular E-Class customer will be satisfied with the E350 because they're interests lie in the comfort, safety and cabin space department, not the 1/4 or 0-60. And for them the performance of the E350 is more than adequate.

And guess what? The E350 sells. It sells not because of performance but because of other qualities. I'm sure MB knows this and that's the reason they're not touching it.

[cawimmer430]

They get to the conclusion....... "There is no need for any fanfare before the victor is revealed. It is the E350CDi, not through any overwhelming superiority but byjust being sufficiently better in sufficiently diverse areas of endeavour for any other verdict to be perverse. It is, however, the least attractive and will come with the least dynamic image, but if you can look past this, it is the best ar here".

Translation: Nicely balanced automobile.

[ifcar]

"And guess what? The E350 sells. It sells not because of performance but because of other qualities. I'm sure MB knows this and that's the reason they're not touching it."

The Camry and Corolla sell and Toyota never touches their formula. Must be the best car ever, not millions of people who just go for the familiar and respected name.

[sportyaccordy]

"And guess what? The E350 sells. It sells not because of performance but because of other qualities. I'm sure MB knows this and that's the reason they're not touching it."

The Camry and Corolla sell and Toyota never touches their formula. Must be the best car ever, not millions of people who just go for the familiar and respected name.

True but they're universally loathed by enthusiasts. They, along with most Mercedes', will be the last choice of people looking for a partner to engage in some spirited driving with. And being that according to C&D all the other cars made just as great daily drivers as the E class while being much more entertaining to drive at no price premium, beyond brand loyalty what reason is there to buy the Benz over anything else? It would be like if the Mazda 6 were just as reliable and easy to drive as a Camry, but was also much more fun. If they cost the same, you get more car for your money with the 6, unless you DON'T like driving to be fun or engaging, which would make the Camry the choice for you.

[Submariner]

True but they're universally loathed by enthusiasts. They, along with most Mercedes', will be the last choice of people looking for a partner to engage in some spirited driving with. And being that according to C&D all the other cars made just as great daily drivers as the E class while being much more entertaining to drive at no price premium, beyond brand loyalty what reason is there to buy the Benz over anything else? It would be like if the Mazda 6 were just as reliable and easy to drive as a Camry, but was also much more fun. If they cost the same, you get more car for your money with the 6, unless you DON'T like driving to be fun or engaging, which would make the Camry the choice for you.

"Built to a standard, not a price"

That seems to be the sentiment of just about every review I've read.  The build quality is simply best in class, and the overall experience is reminiscent to the W124 E-classes. 

I haven't driven the new E-class, so I'll admit that my opinion holds little water, but imagine this; Drive an E32 535i, then drive a W124 E320.  The 5 is a better drivers car, but the E is a better riding car, and feels like a tank.

[CALL_911]

"Built to a standard, not a price"

That seems to be the sentiment of just about every review I've read.  The build quality is simply best in class, and the overall experience is reminiscent to the W124 E-classes. 

I haven't driven the new E-class, so I'll admit that my opinion holds little water, but imagine this; Drive an E32 535i, then drive a W124 E320.  The 5 is a better drivers car, but the E is a better riding car, and feels like a tank.

E34!

[Submariner]

E34!

Haha...whoops, I knew E32 sounded wrong. 

[CALL_911]

Haha...whoops, I knew E32 sounded wrong. 

E32's the 7er of that era.

[Hachee]

True but they're universally loathed by enthusiasts. They, along with most Mercedes', will be the last choice of people looking for a partner to engage in some spirited driving with.

I have to disagree with "universally loathed" by enthusiasts.  I think there are plenty of enthusiasts, myself included, who appreciate a Benz for its qualities and know exactly what it is and what to expect.  I think we know the BMW is going to be the sportier drive, but we don't all hate the Benz.  Let's not get carried away - it's not like driving a Camry or an Impala.  I've been a vocal critic about the path Mercedes has taken over the years, but I can still appreciate the qualities most of them have.  I was recently in the back of a last gen E350 and you know what?  It just felt good and impressive, like the Merceded of old...more so than a 5 Series.

[Tave]

Sporty was refering to the Camry and Corolla.