2009 Audi A4 2.0T vs. 2005 Honda Accord sedan V6

[GoCougs]

Guys, don't take too much offense, I'm just sparring a bit. (Though I am semi serious, the A4 should run on an Accord at its price point.)

[Eye of the Tiger]

Look, I found something that can beat an Accord for only $9800

[S204STi]

Guys, don't take too much offense, I'm just sparring a bit. (Though I am semi serious, the A4 should run on an Accord at its price point.)

[r0tor]

I have an LX (cloth interior, no sunroof, no nav, etc.) for which I paid $21k new off the lot in 2005.

The '09 A4 in that C&D test was $47k.

Again, the point being, a $47k "performance" sedan that can't keep up with a car half its price is the pinnacle of badge snobbery.

you can buy a new 2.0T for low $30's.... and its a bit nicer then a stripped accord

[r0tor]

[SVT666]

My 2003 SVT Focus can spank a brand new Accord V6 Coupe on twisty mountain roads.  That's the pinnacle of badge snobbery.

[Laconian]

Eh, straight line performance is a cheap commodity nowadays.

[Submariner]

I have an LX (cloth interior, no sunroof, no nav, etc.) for which I paid $21k new off the lot in 2005.

The '09 A4 in that C&D test was $47k.

Again, the point being, a $47k "performance" sedan that can't keep up with a car half its price is the pinnacle of badge snobbery.

Perhaps some people don't care much about power? 

Sure, Mr. Whomever-you-raced might have, but what about people like my 65 year old female neighbor? 

Audi (and every brand for that matter) need's to have different trim levels at different price points.  You cannot have a 300HP A4, then a 400 and 500 HP A4 when your upper models don't make much power.  Yes, some of it has to to with wanting a better badge, but you have to realize, many people consider the A4 to be a better car regardless of power. 

There are cars that cost literally multiples less than say, an S-class and can hit 60 just as quickly.  Some people don't care.  For others, like my dad, they can buy a TT V12, and trash nearly any production car on the market...and guess what, he rarely uses 1/5th of that cars potential. 

[Submariner]

Look, I found something that can beat an Accord for only $9800

I'm not sure i'd want that tacky pile of dog vomit at any price...

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, I don't mean to be a dick to you, but you don't think the average European shopper is any less, well, retarded?

As far as I know and have observed nobody here really cares if their C200 Kompressor or 320i is beaten to 60 mph by a VW Passat R36 or Hyundai Azera. It's not an issue here. A C200 Kompressor and 320i are premium cars from a premium brand while the Passat, even the R36 and the Azera are mainstream cars. That's how it works here. Sure, they might be cross-shopped but that's an exception, not the rule.

Personally, if like you say, the average European is a badge whore and will buy a car with a "prestigious" badge for much more money with less equipment, etc., I think that makes them even worse than the average American consumer. Think about it, the American consumer wants a car that would give you more stuff for your dollar (not saying that's right, hell, my parents bought a 200 hp A4 2.0T when they could've bought a 300+ hp G35), regardless of the brand. Being a brand whore makes MUCH less sense than trying to get the most stuff for your money.

The term "badge whore" is taken way too far in that context. The simple fact of the matter is that brand prestige is important here. If you're going to be shedding out a lot of money for a luxury car it better have a name. How does one make a name for oneself? Easy. Look at the history of Mercedes or BMW. Those kinds of things create appeal and make the brand interesting. That's the reason why Lexus sales here are in the toilet (and also because they have not adapted to the European market). For these types of people value is rarely important.

I understand that a lot of Americans are value oriented but that seems a bit oxymoronish when you're talking about luxury cars, which are supposed to be an indulgence. I also find it weird how they keep complaining about how German cars are overpriced and such. Don't these people use their brains? It seems to me that Americans love to bitch about everything. Labor is expensive here as are raw materials. The cost of producing in Europe is expensive, especially in Germany and especially something as complex as a modern automobile. The Euro-Dollar relationship also affects the price. Add to that the prestige pricing that is standard at European luxury car firms and you have an expensive product. Simple. Even with the prestige pricing factor removed, the cars would still be expensive. The bottom line is that products from Europe are expensive. I'm sure it is the same thing when you buy sweets or chocolates from Europe in a supermarket in the US, right?

If someone wants value then by all means they should go buy a Kia or Lexus. Some people don't bother with value because they see something else in a product like a BMW, Audi or MB. Something far more appealing than what Lexus or Infiniti or Hyundai offer and for them whatever they see is worth the price.


Also, please tell me where the Honda Accord V6 is sold?  North America. That's really it. It might be offered in Australia but that's insignificant at the moment. The point is that this vehicle was engineered for the US market. The Honda research department found out that the typical boring American family wants V6 power in their boring mainstream sedan because Car and Driver or Motor Trend tells them that performance is important so that they can safely merge unto a highway without driving to their deaths, right?

The Audi A4 2.0T is sold globally. It has to be optimized for various markets which includes emissions. Performance has to be optimized therefore. I'd say the A4 2.0T is a very good performer in its own right. If you want to spank a Honda Accord V6 with an Audi A4, guess what? There's an A4 with a V6 available too. It will cost more but hey, that's the price you pay for the Audi badge. I'm wondering why these two cars were even compared. A V6 Accord is faster than an A4. 2.0T in the straights - no secret there. Big deal. If someone who bought an A4 2.0T gets his ass raped by a V6 Accord or Camry then he should shut the fuck up because he probably could have afforded the A4 V6 or an S4/RS4. Seriously, some people. 

I'm getting really tired of these types of threads. Seems to me the Internet is filled with such Japanese mainstream V6 sedan vs underpowered and overpriced Euro sedan with a 4-cylinder threads and the impression I get is that it is simply a bunch of silly kids comparing these cars thinking that every friggin person buys a car because of performance. 

FAIL

[nickdrinkwater]

Well, duh.  The Audi was a 2.0 4cyl whilst your Accord is a V6.

[GoCougs]

I'm getting really tired of these types of threads. Seems to me the Internet is filled with such Japanese mainstream V6 sedan vs underpowered and overpriced Euro sedan with a 4-cylinder threads and the impression I get is that it is simply a bunch of silly kids comparing these cars thinking that every friggin person buys a car because of performance. 

FAIL

Do you not like Japanese cars? In all seriousness, how can these threads not exist? As long as there is the Audi A4 2.0 (and M-B C300), they will. (And should IMO.)

[GoCougs]

Yeah, I guess so.

[GoCougs]

I'm not sure i'd want that tacky pile of dog vomit at any price...

Mopar or no car(truck).

[CALL_911]

As far as I know and have observed nobody here really cares if their C200 Kompressor or 320i is beaten to 60 mph by a VW Passat R36 or Hyundai Azera. It's not an issue here. A C200 Kompressor and 320i are premium cars from a premium brand while the Passat, even the R36 and the Azera are mainstream cars. That's how it works here. Sure, they might be cross-shopped but that's an exception, not the rule.



The term "badge whore" is taken way too far in that context. The simple fact of the matter is that brand prestige is important here. If you're going to be shedding out a lot of money for a luxury car it better have a name. How does one make a name for oneself? Easy. Look at the history of Mercedes or BMW. Those kinds of things create appeal and make the brand interesting. That's the reason why Lexus sales here are in the toilet (and also because they have not adapted to the European market). For these types of people value is rarely important.

I understand that a lot of Americans are value oriented but that seems a bit oxymoronish when you're talking about luxury cars, which are supposed to be an indulgence. I also find it weird how they keep complaining about how German cars are overpriced and such. Don't these people use their brains? It seems to me that Americans love to bitch about everything. Labor is expensive here as are raw materials. The cost of producing in Europe is expensive, especially in Germany and especially something as complex as a modern automobile. The Euro-Dollar relationship also affects the price. Add to that the prestige pricing that is standard at European luxury car firms and you have an expensive product. Simple. Even with the prestige pricing factor removed, the cars would still be expensive. The bottom line is that products from Europe are expensive. I'm sure it is the same thing when you buy sweets or chocolates from Europe in a supermarket in the US, right?

If someone wants value then by all means they should go buy a Kia or Lexus. Some people don't bother with value because they see something else in a product like a BMW, Audi or MB. Something far more appealing than what Lexus or Infiniti or Hyundai offer and for them whatever they see is worth the price.


Also, please tell me where the Honda Accord V6 is sold?  North America. That's really it. It might be offered in Australia but that's insignificant at the moment. The point is that this vehicle was engineered for the US market. The Honda research department found out that the typical boring American family wants V6 power in their boring mainstream sedan because Car and Driver or Motor Trend tells them that performance is important so that they can safely merge unto a highway without driving to their deaths, right?

The Audi A4 2.0T is sold globally. It has to be optimized for various markets which includes emissions. Performance has to be optimized therefore. I'd say the A4 2.0T is a very good performer in its own right. If you want to spank a Honda Accord V6 with an Audi A4, guess what? There's an A4 with a V6 available too. It will cost more but hey, that's the price you pay for the Audi badge. I'm wondering why these two cars were even compared. A V6 Accord is faster than an A4. 2.0T in the straights - no secret there. Big deal. If someone who bought an A4 2.0T gets his ass raped by a V6 Accord or Camry then he should shut the fuck up because he probably could have afforded the A4 V6 or an S4/RS4. Seriously, some people. 

I'm getting really tired of these types of threads. Seems to me the Internet is filled with such Japanese mainstream V6 sedan vs underpowered and overpriced Euro sedan with a 4-cylinder threads and the impression I get is that it is simply a bunch of silly kids comparing these cars thinking that every friggin person buys a car because of performance. 

FAIL

I'm not replying to that whole thing, because I lack the patience. Secondly, it's much like arguing with a wall.

Prestige pricing. Wimmer, as far as I'm concerned, that just makes you a sucker. You're putting a name on an added price that's there for no reason other than the company can. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, hell, that's capitalism at work.

You're trying to tell me you, and the European population which you describe aren't badge whores? Is that a joke?

I'd buy a 320i over an Accord any day of the week. Ditto an A4 1.8T. But the difference between me and the American public is that I care about how the car drives, whereas the American public generally wants a powerful, large, comfortable car. It seems that in Europe, they don't buy cars. Instead, they seem to buy badges (aka, they're huge badge whores). I think you're trying to say that the European mentality is better or whatever, but all I see are people who are suckers. People who are getting less for their dollar (and probably wouldn't appreciate the added dynamic benefit of the 3er, etc.), but because they have a fancy badge that implies prestige (no matter what you say, a C-Class is a C-Class. Not Stirling Moss' SLR, nor is it a Gullwing. It's a C-Class. No amount of history can change that), they'd pay more. Americans whine a lot? Maybe they're not used to getting shafted quite as much as Europeans do.

Disclaimer: This does NOT apply to an enthusiast. As I said earlier, I would take a 320i over any Accord/Camry, etc.

[sportyaccordy]

Honda Accord: FWD, 240HP, prob like 3400#

Audi: AWD? 210HP? 3600#?

Seems like a no brainer

Plus u won the race, but at the end of the day he gets to drive an Audi

[Hachee]

Shit, there's a lot to digest here, but at least the vast majority is intelligent (even if there's a lot of disagreement (as opposed to Autospies, which I was just checking out).

First of all, for as long as I know, there have always been inexpensive cars from "non-luxury" makes which can be equipped to be faster than luxury makes.  Big American cars with big engines were always faster than contemporary four or six cylinder Audis or Mercedes or whatever.  People want different things in their cars, so companies give them choices.  Difficult concept.

I think we all know that most people don't really give a shit about cars, and as long as the car is comfortable, reliable, decently made, looks okay, and has lots of shit in it, they're happy.  Or, if the car just looks fantastic, that'll work too, and the rest of the stuff doesn't matter.  MOST people just want a car that feels "peppy" - they are not power mad - which is why most volume cars, like the Accord, sell in four cylinder guise, NOT V6.  The V6 is sold here because gas has been cheap for so long, but the take rate on these cars is very low.  Perhaps more in recent years as the Camry and Accord have become larger and better equipped, but they are still usually sold in 4 cyl versions.  So the "typical, boring American family" doesn't want a V6 if the 4 is sufficient.   MOST Americans want value and don't care about the badge.  I say "most" here.  Yes, there are plenty for whom the badge is important.  But Europeans are far bigger badge whores, hence the huge volume of lower end MB's, BMW's and Audis.  Cars like the 3 Series have been crushing (in terms of sales) larger, better equipped, cheaper cars like Passats, Lagunas, Mondeos for a long time now.

Come to think of it, it's actually not a bad comparison, and one that plenty of people make when shopping - loaded Accord vs. base A4.  Prices aren't far off, and people usually set a budget.  They compare what they get, and make a choice.  Obviously, more people go for the Accord, but plenty of people buy the Audi because they liked it better (and/or want the badge).

CW, you need to lighten up on the America-bashing!  Maybe it's your perspective looking at America as a whole from Germany, and it's certainly possible I forget about the "real" America because I'm in New York, but I think you need to generalize less.  People in America may say German cars are overpriced because a) they don't see the benefit in the (generally) superior dynamics, b) they get so much more "stuff" in their Japanese and American cars (which are really pretty interchangable these days), and c) they just don't care ENOUGH about the badge.  But sure as shit, there's a reason why sales of "prestige" brands like BMW, Audi, Mercedes and - yes - Lexus (like it or not, through brilliant, case-study worthy marketing, it has become a prestige brand, at least here in the US) have been rising for years now (forget this year's sale implosion)....because enough people do care about the badge.

People are the SAME all over the fucking world.  Europeans and some others just buy cars with smaller and/or diesels because fuel is so expensive.  That's it...no other reason.

Oh, and for the record, I'd take the Audi over the Honda every time.

[CALL_911]

Hachee, where in NY are you?

[Cookie Monster]

I think I'm the only one here who would take an Accord Sedan 6-6 from Coug's generation over the Audi.

[CALL_911]

I think I'm the only one here who would take an Accord Sedan 6-6 from Coug's generation over the Audi.

You probably are.

[Hachee]

Westchester County.  you?

[Raza]

Eh, sounds like a douchebag. 

[Raza]

Well, duh.  The Audi was a 2.0 4cyl whilst your Accord is a V6.

In the A4, I'd put the blame on the automatic and AWD.  I've put up with V6s in my Passat and my Jetta (1.8T and 2.0T) and haven't had a problem sticking with cars with 50+ more horsepower.

[Raza]

Guys, don't take too much offense, I'm just sparring a bit. (Though I am semi serious, the A4 should run on an Accord at its price point.)

Life is more than a straight line, you know.  The cost of a car is more than an engine.  Now the only time an Audi driver should really be upset is when a Volkswagen with similar build quality, better handling, the same engine, and a much cheaper price tag does it to him.  Because that's when it's evident you're paying for a badge.  Fact is that you can't boil down an MSRP to a single statistic, and you know that. 

[sportyaccordy]

I think I'm the only one here who would take an Accord Sedan 6-6 from Coug's generation over the Audi.

Naw I am not an Audi fan (or fan of anything AWD)

That generation Accord Coupe looks more like a late 90s Taurus coupe. But it's competent.

[CALL_911]

Westchester County.  you?

Nassau.

We're better than you.

[Cookie Monster]

Naw I am not an Audi fan (or fan of anything AWD)

That generation Accord Coupe looks more like a late 90s Taurus coupe. But it's competent.

I've always liked the sedans more than the coupes, except maybe fore the latest generation.

I just can't say no to VTEC + a sweet 6 speed.

[Hachee]

Nassau.

We're better than you.

That's hilarious, because we all know that is not true.  PM me for specifics!

[CALL_911]

That's hilarious, because we all know that is not true.  PM me for specifics!

It's true!

That said, I think we could throw a bunch of guidos overboard. I'd be fine with that. 

[68_427]

Neither of you can match Monroe County.....  wait.