Infiniti M!

[ifcar]

A lot of models have seen sales plummet recently.  But overall, the M has sold pretty well.  And maybe it's a regional thing, but it seems to me that I almost see as many Ms as I do G35/G37s.

I strongly doubt it's in any third place anymore. I guess it could be.

[nickdrinkwater]

The European market is an entirely different animal. I don't know how the Legend is priced there and what it's supposed to be competing with, but I doubt it's relevant to the US.

The Legend was priced alongside the 5 Series.  I don't know what it competes against in the US but I've only seen two Legends in my lifetime.  I think they would have to price it around 3 Series money to stand a chance, and even then they'd be struggling.  Badge is the main reason, but that aside, the car just isn't good enough.

[nickdrinkwater]

The M is a pretty nice.  They don't offer it here but I used to pass one everyday working for a previous employer.  It's not a bad looking car.

[ifcar]

The Legend was priced alongside the 5 Series.  I don't know what it competes against in the US but I've only seen two Legends in my lifetime.  I think they would have to price it around 3 Series money to stand a chance, and even then they'd be struggling.  Badge is the main reason, but that aside, the car just isn't good enough.

5-Series here as well, though with a premium badge.

[nickdrinkwater]

I thought the TL was a 5er competitor?  I remember seeing a few (old shape) TLs when I was last in the States and thinking it looked like a decent 5er alternative.

[ifcar]

I thought the TL was a 5er competitor?  I remember seeing a few (old shape) TLs when I was last in the States and thinking it looked like a decent 5er alternative.

The RL and TL are pretty much the same size, but the TL -- like the Infiniti G or Cadillac CTS -- is positioned against the 3-Series.

[565]

I strongly doubt it's in any third place anymore. I guess it could be.

Looking at the closest ones to catching the M in sales, it might have slipped all the way to 4th last month (3rd went to the GS) considering the new M was just announced.  Still CTYD for 2009 still puts the M ahead of the GS, A6, and STS.

MX793 is right, short of the 5 series and new E class, the rest of the field took a pretty big hit last month.


Lexus
http://lexusenthusiast.com/2009/09/02/lexus-usa-august-2009-sales-report/
GS-669
CTYD-4,776

Infiniti
http://www.nissannews.com/assets/attachments/August2_SalesReport09___3.pdf
M-618
CYTD-6,294

Audi
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS208180+01-Sep-2009+PRN20090901  
A6 -561    
CYTD-4,171

Cadilliac
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=6&docid=56621
STS-337
CYTD-4,609


The RL is way way behind

Acura
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS203397+01-Sep-2009+PRN20090901
RL-149
CTYD-1,341

[MX793]

I thought the TL was a 5er competitor?  I remember seeing a few (old shape) TLs when I was last in the States and thinking it looked like a decent 5er alternative.

TL is sort of an in-between car, though it's most often compared with the 3-series due to price (even though it's closer to the 5 series in size, same with the Infiniti G and Cadillac CTS).  One could argue that the TL also fights with the lower end 5 series models for buyers as well.  Acura also has the TSX (Euro Accord), which is also a 3-series competitor (particularly the bottom of the line 328).  The RL competes squarely with the 5 series both in size in price.

[ifcar]

Looking at the closest ones to catching the M in sales, it might have slipped all the way to 4th last month (3rd went to the GS) considering the new M was just announced.  Still CTYD for 2009 still puts the M ahead of the GS, A6, and STS.

MX793 is right, short of the 5 series and new E class, the rest of the field took a pretty big hit last month.

I'm not finding sales figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if the XF was in 4th.

[CaMIRO]

And I seriously doubt it's the front-drive based underpinnings, which don't necessarily betray any shortcomings when a car is driven like a luxury car rather than a sports sedan.

Yes, they do. Ride quality. Steering feel. Responsiveness. You don't need to be driving at nine-tenths to want these things.

That layout is just as bad for luxury as it is for sportiness. It's an expedient compromise that has no place at $50k.

Did a lack of rear-wheel-drive ever kill the Legend, back in the days of the 2.5-liter 170-horsepower TL?

The Legend was a rather lighter car, with superior dynamics in some respects. It also competed against German cars whose price tags were more exorbitant, and dealers still more callous, than they are today.

Why would someone go into the Acura dealer...

And that's the question, isn't it? You keep starting with a buyer walking into an Acura dealer and wondering what he can get for $50k.

Try starting with a buyer looking at what he can get for $50k, period.

[CaMIRO]

5-Series here as well, though with a premium badge.

And the same Honda looks and underpinnings...

But hey, Acura says it's premium. More space, right?

[nickdrinkwater]

I find it hard to believe they think a car with Accord underpinnings can seriously compete with the 5 Series and E-Class.

[CaMIRO]

ifcar - if a homely girl with no personality whined to you that she couldn't get a date, would you deduce that the existence of her prettier, more charismatic sister was the problem?

[ifcar]

I find it hard to believe they think a car with Accord underpinnings can seriously compete with the 5 Series and E-Class.

Let's not get into what price point Lexus is able to successfully take Camry underpinnings.

[CaMIRO]

Let's not get into what price point Lexus is able to successfully take Camry underpinnings.

In the case of the ES - considerably cheaper than the RL, and its success is hardly all down to the actual car.

[ifcar]

ifcar - if a homely girl with no personality whined to you that she couldn't get a date, would you deduce that the existence of her prettier, more charismatic sister was the problem?

Don't you think she'd stand a much better chance if her sister weren't there?

[CaMIRO]

Don't you think she'd stand a much better chance if her sister weren't there?

But why, oh why, have you limited yourself to girls from this family?

[nickdrinkwater]

Not if other girls in the club were better looking

[ifcar]

In the case of the ES - considerably cheaper than the RL, and its success is hardly all down to the actual car.

I was actually going the RX route. That thing gets damn pricey and people eat it up. The ES can too, though it is indeed cheaper than the RL. Way fewer people are looking for any form of sportiness than many car people seem to think.

[MX793]

I find it hard to believe they think a car with Accord underpinnings can seriously compete with the 5 Series and E-Class.

It's not like Honda has any other platforms to play with, and they've demonstrated a determination to not develop a premium RWD platform (or a V8 engine).

[ifcar]

But why, oh why, have you limited yourself to girls from this family?

There are a hell of a lot of Honda loyalists you should be asking that question to.

[CaMIRO]

There are a hell of a lot of Honda loyalists you should be asking that question to.

Yes. CRX. S2000. Civic Type-R/ VTEC people. NSX worshippers (who evidently had not the money to buy one, given the sales figures).

But Acura worshippers? People willing to pay $50k for an Acura? No, sir, not at present time.

[ifcar]

Yes. CRX. S2000. Civic Type-R/ VTEC people. NSX worshippers (who evidently had not the money to buy one, given the sales figures).

But Acura worshippers? People willing to pay $50k for an Acura? No, sir, not at present time.

There are people buying RLs. Just not many. The MDX also approaches $50k, and it's had no trouble selling.

[CaMIRO]

I was actually going the RX route. That thing gets damn pricey and people eat it up.

Fair enough, although the RX is hardly a dynamic masterpiece. It's a different segment; you're not looking for the ultimate in roadholding or silence. People like the styling, the utility, the dealership treatment - and that hybrid model gives them a few incremental sales.

The ES is junk. Any number of cars do luxury better; but the dealership experience and reputation for quality is another matter. If you don't want to be bothered, period, I can see why you might buy one.

[ifcar]

Yes, they do. Ride quality. Steering feel. Responsiveness. You don't need to be driving at nine-tenths to want these things.

That layout is just as bad for luxury as it is for sportiness. It's an expedient compromise that has no place at $50k.

The Legend was a rather lighter car, with superior dynamics in some respects. It also competed against German cars whose price tags were more exorbitant, and dealers still more callous, than they are today.

And that's the question, isn't it? You keep starting with a buyer walking into an Acura dealer and wondering what he can get for $50k.

Try starting with a buyer looking at what he can get for $50k, period.

What is the inherent advantage in either ride quality or steering feel to rear-wheel-drive?

And anyone who does put the RL on even the longest shopping list of cars to research will very easily find the TL offering the same characteristics and use that to conclude that the RL isn't worth the money. Perhaps buying a TL, perhaps buying a competitor, but rarely buying the RL.

[CaMIRO]

There are people buying RLs. Just not many.

Then these "loyalists" of which you speak have no bearing on this subject. So, once again, the question of why you're limiting yourself to a particular family, for your $50k/ date/ what have you, comes up.

Fair enough on the MDX, haven't looked at the sales, although I wonder how many of those are base models (most, I'd casually wager).

[ifcar]

Fair enough, although the RX is hardly a dynamic masterpiece. It's a different segment; you're not looking for the ultimate in roadholding or silence. People like the styling, the utility, the dealership treatment - and that hybrid model gives them a few incremental sales.

The ES is junk. Any number of cars do luxury better; but the dealership experience and reputation for quality is another matter. If you don't want to be bothered, period, I can see why you might buy one.

Junk is too harsh of a word. Like the RX, it was carefully developed for a market segment most automakers have ignored, making everything soft and plush and pleasant. The car exudes "nice." Not necessarily "good" -- the dynamics and so forth -- but "nice." A lot of people just want a really nice car.

[CaMIRO]

Perhaps buying a TL, perhaps buying a competitor, but rarely buying the RL.

Precisely. And the second possibility is one hell of a lot more likely, and relevant.

[CaMIRO]

The car exudes "nice." ... A lot of people just want a really nice car.

It's not "really nice." It may be "nice," in terms of the overall ownership experience; but as a car, it's junk.

[ifcar]

Then these "loyalists" of which you speak have no bearing on this subject. So, once again, the question of why you're limiting yourself to a particular family, for your $50k/ date/ what have you, comes up.

Fair enough on the MDX, haven't looked at the sales, although I wonder how many of those are base models (most, I'd casually wager).

My local Acura dealer has an almost equal number of base, midline, and loaded MDXs listed on its online inventory, spanning from $41k to $49k. Nav systems and DVD players are both popular options in that class; the base MDX has neither.

And I never said people were necessarily limiting themselves to Acura. Simply that if anyone even considers the brand, they'd be more likely to get the TL than the RL. No TL, and people who are in the brand for the entry-luxury TSX could be more easily upsold -- and they have a reason for already being in that family, they're at the dealership already.