Infiniti M!

[ifcar]

Big engine, import, no options, many tests, well-liked cars from the past:

BMW 3ers
BMW 5ers
Honda Accord
Mazda6
Porsches in general
...to name a few...

Let's face it, there are very few car companies that make the bigger engine available without a myriad of features.  The ones that do, however, all seem to be German for the most part.

Honda has almost no factory options. You could always buy the base model of their bigger engine. It's the others you mention where there's tons of optional equipment that can always be added to a car and usually is.

[the Teuton]

Now all we have to do is sift through controversy.  My bet's on Audi/VW or BMW.

MB doesn't cause brouhahas usually, nor Porsche.

I can't see the Japanese being that vain, either.  But then again, a 6-speed Accord sedan with the V6 is a rare one.

[ifcar]

Now all we have to do is sift through controversy.  My bet's on Audi/VW or BMW.

MB doesn't cause brouhahas usually, nor Porsche.

I can't see the Japanese being that vain, either.  But then again, a 6-speed Accord sedan with the V6 is a rare one.

I have work to do, dammit! I have to get a review posted (on a self-imposed schedule) and write a newspaper article (by Thursday)! You are interfering with these crucial efforts!

[CaMIRO]

See, now you're almost saying to me: "Abandon everything else that you're doing and study old car magazines looking for the big-engine no-option car."

Ha! No, I wouldn't do that to you. The actual test is less important than what it says about the way the industry works. I told that story simply to make a point. Frankly, it actually hurt me to see something like that happen, because I used to hold auto correspondents in such high regard.

LJK Setright, George Bishop, Gavin Green - personal heroes of mine. Decades on, I trust what they wrote.

Come to think of it, Bishop used to write articles about hypothetical train rides in which some awful car would be launched, on the train, but the press would be too drunk and full of caviar to notice that they hadn't actually driven it. Of course, the blurb would read, "nestled in the deep, plush seats of the (insert car here), all was right with world..."

If you ever see CAR Magazine, issues 1970-1990, for sale, pick them up.

When done right, you can...

When done right, sure.

So are you saying the love affair is good and disrupting the status quo is a ploy for causing reader-inducing controversy? Or am I misreading?

Something like that, yes. I have no objection to the "love affair;" it is indeed about "consistency." Disrupting it every so often is probably good for the soul, but the staff's true feelings usually come out at the annual awards.

I assume you have more experience than I do at getting press vehicles...

These days, I'm not particularly involved in the auto industry, although I write bits and pieces of things from time to time. Frankly, I find the state of the industry a little depressing...

I do consult for one of the local magazines, so I get to drive what they drive. Speaking of which - a colleague who writes for that magazine recently called me up, while at the wheel of a new press car. He was complaining about the ride quality, which he said was abysmal.

When he told me what the car was, I wasn't surprised - until he drove the point home, saying that he could continuously hear the rear wheels slapping against the pavement, and that he couldn't believe that this car had been released, quite so underdeveloped.

When I drove the car later that evening, I found that he was right. Things were so bad that you could significantly even the ride out by accelerating over bumps, to transfer weight to the unladen rear wheels (to stop them slapping).

He set about putting his thoughts together, and sent me his draft. It was excellent.

Then he called me the other night; asked if I'd bought the magazine. I hadn't, yet. He asked me not to be mad.
There was no way, he said, that they would have let his original article go to press.
They'd lose ads.

The same thing happened a few weeks ago when a luxury car they were testing started clunking in first gear. Not a word about this made it into print (yet I have the clunking on camera).

Mind you, this guy is a damn good writer.

But I digress.

Prior work experience, and some of the attention that my old articles got, seemed sufficient to gain press fleet admission. My suggestion would be to mingle at the trade shows (Detroit, Chicago, etc.) Talk to the PR people and engineers on the stands during press days - if they think you can illustrate something about their car in a unique way, they'll generally be only too happy to let you take a spin in it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - the goal is to understand your subject much, much better than does your readership, but to be able to explain it in a unique way that is easily comprehensible. I can't say I've always held to that goal, or that every correspondent I've admired has done so, either, but it's worth striving for.

And talk to the actual press at those shows, too.

[the Teuton]

I have work to do, dammit! I have to get a review posted (on a self-imposed schedule) and write a newspaper article (by Thursday)! You are interfering with these crucial efforts!

I'm not forcing you to do anything.

If I had my 600+ magazines here with me, I'd start.  But you're the auto journalist -- not me...yet.

[ifcar]

I'm not forcing you to do anything.

If I had my 600+ magazines here with me, I'd start.  But you're the auto journalist -- not me...yet.

I don't have my magazines here either. I'll be relying on the internet... not that I've committed myself to this endeavor or anything.

[the Teuton]

I don't have my magazines here either. I'll be relying on the internet... not that I've committed myself to this endeavor or anything.

You know you have.  Deep down in your psyche, the question festers: Who is CaMIRO, and what can his experience do to help me better understand the field where I want to work?

The answer haunts you because you just don't know.  You'll be searching for it late into the evening, and you know it.

[CaMIRO]

Good grief...

I really need to stop telling that story.

[the Teuton]

Good grief...

I really need to stop telling that story.

Seriously, I'd love to pick your brain a little in a PM or email if you don't mind sometime.  There are only so many reasons I'm an English major, and driving cars and writing about it happens to include most of them.

[CaMIRO]

The other thing that works, ifcar - go to an auto show, on a press day, with at least one open-ended question for every new car launched (and a few existing models). Develop it into a theme of questions, reinforcing the original point.

Find the brand manager, the vehicle line executive, anyone key at the launch - and toward the end of the press conference and ensuing feeding frenzy, corner them with your question. When they ask if you've had lunch yet, you've done it.

[CaMIRO]

Seriously, I'd love to pick your brain a little in a PM or email if you don't mind sometime.

Feel free; there might still be something worthwhile in there. I've been trying to stay away from cars for a while, though...

[ifcar]

Ha! No, I wouldn't do that to you. The actual test is less important than what it says about the way the industry works. I told that story simply to make a point. Frankly, it actually hurt me to see something like that happen, because I used to hold auto correspondents in such high regard.

LJK Setright, George Bishop, Gavin Green - personal heroes of mine. Decades on, I trust what they wrote.

Come to think of it, Bishop used to write articles about hypothetical train rides in which some awful car would be launched, on the train, but the press would be too drunk and full of caviar to notice that they hadn't actually driven it. Of course, the blurb would read, "nestled in the deep, plush seats of the (insert car here), all was right with world..."

If you ever see CAR Magazine, issues 1970-1990, for sale, pick them up.

When done right, sure.

Something like that, yes. I have no objection to the "love affair;" it is indeed about "consistency." Disrupting it every so often is probably good for the soul, but the staff's true feelings usually come out at the annual awards.

These days, I'm not particularly involved in the auto industry, although I write bits and pieces of things from time to time. Frankly, I find the state of the industry a little depressing...

I do consult for one of the local magazines, so I get to drive what they drive. Speaking of which - a colleague who writes for that magazine recently called me up, while at the wheel of a new press car. He was complaining about the ride quality, which he said was abysmal.

When he told me what the car was, I wasn't surprised - until he drove the point home, saying that he could continuously hear the rear wheels slapping against the pavement, and he couldn't believe that this car had been released, quite so underdeveloped.

When I drove the car later that evening, I found that he was right. Things were so bad that you could even the ride out by accelerating over bumps, to transfer weight to the unladen rear wheels (to stop them slapping).

He set about putting his thoughts together, and sent me his draft. It was excellent.

Then he called me the other night; asked if I'd bought the magazine. I hadn't, yet. He asked me not to be mad.
There was no way, he said, that they would have let his original article go to press.
They'd lose ads.

The same thing happened a few weeks ago when a luxury car they were testing started clunking in first gear. Not a word about this made it into print (yet I have the clunking on camera).

But I digress.

Prior work experience, and some of the attention that my old articles got, seemed sufficient to gain press fleet admission. My suggestion would be to mingle at the trade shows (Detroit, Chicago, etc.) Talk to the PR people and engineers on the stands during press days - if they think you can illustrate something about their car in a unique way, they'll generally be only too happy to let you take a spin in it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - the goal is to understand your subject much, much better than does your readership, but to be able to explain it in a unique way that is easily comprehensible. I can't say I've always held to that goal, or that every correspondent I've admired has done so, either, but it's worth striving for.

And talk to the actual press at those shows, too.

I guess if/when auto writing ever becomes a full-time job I'll be able to go to the shows. As it is, that would be almost impossible to pull off. (I was able to go to the NY show last year, but that was a one-time gig.)

I do make a point of going in-depth with press cars -- not in the sense that you likely would but in their everday practicality and usability. My own niche, I guess.


And the example you give is a disgrace. I'd like to think the automaker is working on a fix already to a problem that severe, and I wouldn't think the automaker would pull ads over a complaint that's obviously legitimate -- even the mainstream media might cover that one and it would be hugely embarrassing.

I imagine you're keeping the make/model of car quiet intentionally?

[ifcar]

Okay, I have a potential ride quality candidate: Lexus IS-F?

[ifcar]

You know you have.  Deep down in your psyche, the question festers: Who is CaMIRO, and what can his experience do to help me better understand the field where I want to work?

The answer haunts you because you just don't know.  You'll be searching for it late into the evening, and you know it.

I think I found my lifesaving excuse: I only get C/D and Motor Trend and am not at all familiar with what sort of comparisons the others have been running.

[the Teuton]

I think I found my lifesaving excuse: I only get C/D and Motor Trend and am not at all familiar with what sort of comparisons the others have been running.

Good save.

[CaMIRO]

I guess if/when auto writing ever becomes a full-time job I'll be able to go to the shows. As it is, that would be almost impossible to pull off. (I was able to go to the NY show last year, but that was a one-time gig.)

You are, unfortunately, on the East coast. If you were in Detroit, that'd be two shows (Chicago is an easy trip).

Then again, if you were in Detroit, you'd want to shoot yourself right about now.

Look, New York is a great opportunity. Get cracking. You have two days out of the year when these guys literally stand there and answer everything you throw at them. Use the opportunity to come up with something they may not have thought of; or, at least, suggest something they've thought of, but haven't made public yet.

Go find Lutz next year. He's remarkably easy to talk to, and a good place to start when approaching these guys. Somewhere, I have a whole list of the most approachable people. Ed Zellner at Buick, for instance.

I do make a point of going in-depth with press cars -- not in the sense that you likely would but in their everday practicality and usability. My own niche, I guess.

A good opportunity to say that I thought the Forte review was very good; much more on dynamics than I had expected to read. I follow your reviews, I just haven't been around much.

And the example you give is a disgrace. I'd like to think the automaker is working on a fix already to a problem that severe, and I wouldn't think the automaker would pull ads over a complaint that's obviously legitimate -- even the mainstream media might cover that one and it would be hugely embarrassing.

I imagine you're keeping the make/model of car quiet intentionally?

Well, there were two cars involved; the first, with the ride quality problem, and the second, the clunking.

I have no stake in either matter. The first brand is known for performance mainstreamers, but not sold in America; and if I mentioned the second (a luxury brand), at least one person on this forum would want my head (and I rather wonder if anyone would believe me).

The first car - the ride quality issue is a simple case of someone getting the suspension tuning very wrong. It's so noticeable, when you're looking for it, that I was shocked to discover that the car actually had an independent rear (I'd forgotten that they'd upgraded for the new generation).

As far as I can tell, the problem is that they threw a diesel engine into it without compensating for the additional weight up front, which I can only imagine is serious enough to cause this sort of issue (unladen rear skips over bumps). As things stand, the gasoline-engined version is certainly stiff, but with this diesel, on anything but glasslike roads, the rear jounce and rebound is awful.

I think it was Henry Ford who decided that the vertical frequency of a car should be about 1.5 Hz. It could have been Andre Citroen, too. Either way, that's what the human body wants to travel at, up and down. Well, this thing probably registers considerably higher; I'd just had dinner, and wished I hadn't.

As to the second car - it had fewer than 5,000 miles on it, and would CLUNK when first gear was engaged, and the clutch was released. I'm guessing one of the linkages at the rear; whether related to suspension or drivetrain, I couldn't say. The importer took a look at it, mid-test, and pronounced it fine (I still can't believe that), and it was still clunking when they gave it back.

In all fairness, it was a press car, and had no doubt been severely abused; but still, that issue should have made it into print.

[CaMIRO]

Okay, I have a potential ride quality candidate: Lexus IS-F?

Think hatchback from mainstream, performance-oriented brand, not sold in America.

[the Teuton]

If there was a performance variant of it, and it switched from beam axle to IRS, I'd have to say Alfa, Fiat, or Renault.

[ifcar]

You are, unfortunately, on the East coast. If you were in Detroit, that'd be two shows (Chicago is an easy trip).

Then again, if you were in Detroit, you'd want to shoot yourself right about now.

Look, New York is a great opportunity. Get cracking. You have two days out of the year when these guys literally stand there and answer everything you throw at them. Use the opportunity to come up with something they may not have thought of; or, at least, suggest something they've thought of, but haven't made public yet.

Go find Lutz next year. He's remarkably easy to talk to, and a good place to start when approaching these guys. Somewhere, I have a whole list of the most approachable people. Ed Zellner at Buick, for instance.

Thanks for the tip. Again, someday, I'll be able to do that; as it is, I don't think my schedule or finances would allow it. When I was there before, the show happened to have coincided with my spring break and I was there on the dime of Edmunds.com.

A good opportunity to say that I thought the Forte review was very good; much more on dynamics than I had expected to read. I follow your reviews, I just haven't been around much.

Well, thank you. Any advice on improvements you could offer -- short of becoming an engineer -- I'd give the fullest consideration.

Well, there were two cars involved; the first, with the ride quality problem, and the second, the clunking.

I have no stake in either matter. The first brand is known for performance mainstreamers, but not sold in America; and if I mentioned the second (a luxury brand), at least one person on this forum would want my head (and I rather wonder if anyone would believe me).

The first car - the ride quality issue is a simple case of someone getting the suspension tuning very wrong. It's so noticeable, when you're looking for it, that I was shocked to discover that the car actually had an independent rear (I'd forgotten that they'd upgraded for the new generation).

As far as I can tell, the problem is that they threw a diesel engine into it without compensating for the additional weight up front, which I can only imagine is serious enough to cause this sort of issue (unladen rear skips over bumps). As things stand, the gasoline-engined version is certainly stiff, but with this diesel, on anything but glasslike roads, the rear jounce and rebound is awful.

I think it was Henry Ford who decided that the harmonic frequency of a car should be about 1.5 Hz. It could have been Andre Citroen, too. Either way, that's what the human body wants to travel at, up and down. Well, this thing probably registers considerably higher; I'd just had dinner, and wished I hadn't.

As to the second car - it had fewer than 5,000 miles on it, and would CLUNK when first gear was engaged, and the clutch was released. I'm guessing one of the linkages at the rear; whether related to suspension or drivetrain, I couldn't say. The importer took a look at it, mid-test, and pronounced it fine (I still can't believe that), and it was still clunking when they gave it back.

In all fairness, it was a press car, and had no doubt been severely abused; but still, that issue should have made it into print.

If the car is clunking and they're denying it, that's certainly something to write about: the whole dialogue. With the other car, what were the circumstances that it's not sold in the US but was being reviewed here? Or are you out of the US at the moment?

[CaMIRO]

If there was a performance variant of it, and it switched from beam axle to IRS, I'd have to say Alfa, Fiat, or Renault.

Close.

This was not the performance variant, but such a version does exist. The entire brand is pitched as a performance offering - and many have complained that the ride quality of all their cars is too stiff for the general public. Their sales have been rather low, perhaps as a result.

Thing is, I wanted to like this car; I just couldn't. Not with a tugboat diesel engine and that slapping...

[Galaxy]

At first I thought you where talking about the A5 Sportback but that is not really mainstream.

[CaMIRO]

... I was there on the dime of Edmunds.com.

Good for you. Next time an opportunity like that comes along, start networking (I hate that word, but it is what it is).

... short of becoming an engineer...

Don't do that. Too boring. Only LJK ever really pulled that off, anyway.

I read with interest your point about the Kia's gearbox. And I can't remember if that was the car that had the 4th-5th issue or not, but either way - if you're going to devote that much space to things like that, you'll need the public behind you. Else you're shooting yourself in the foot by deriding the manufacturer that is giving you press cars.

To clarify - I agree with you writing about the problem; I just wonder what the reaction will be.

If the car is clunking and they're denying it, that's certainly something to write about: the whole dialogue. With the other car, what were the circumstances that it's not sold in the US but was being reviewed here? Or are you out of the US at the moment?

Agreed on the clunking. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I still can't believe it. Problem is, the importer who pronounced it "ok" is the same organization who issued it as a press car.

I am indeed in Europe. Needed a break from Detroit... but the auto industry followed me here. Every time I try to get out...

[Galaxy]

C

This was not the performance variant, but such a version does exist. The entire brand is pitched as a performance offering - and many have complained that the ride quality of all their cars is too stiff for the general public. Their sales have been rather low, perhaps as a result.

A certain VW AG offering ffrom Spain? 

[CaMIRO]

A certain VW AG offering ffrom Spain?

Took you a while, didn't it?  

[ifcar]

Good for you. Next time an opportunity like that comes along, start networking.

I should have done better then, I agree. I wasn't writing anything automotive at the time to pitch, unfortunately.

Don't do that. Too boring. Only LJK ever really pulled that off, anyway.

Aren't a lot of car reviewers former engineers? Gives them all that understanding of how things move and all?

I read with interest your point about the Kia's gearbox. And I can't remember if that was the car that had the 4th-5th issue or not, but either way - if you're going to devote that much space to things like that, you'll need the public behind you. Else you're shooting yourself in the foot by deriding the manufacturer that is giving you press cars.

To clarify - I agree with you writing about the problem; I just wonder what the reaction will be.

What would be the point of getting the car from them if I'd be afraid to talk about it? My own edification on their dime?

Also, in this particular case, the Forte's oversensitive throttle has been discussed in other reviews, though not quiet as extensively. But it's something of a dealbreaker if there's an aspect of a car that prevents it from being driven.

Agreed on the clunking. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I still can't believe it. Problem is, the importer who pronounced it "ok" is the same organization who issued it as a press car.

I am indeed in Europe. Needed a break from Detroit... but the auto industry followed me here. Every time I try to get out...

Have you totally moved to Europe, or is it more of a sabbatical?

With the clunking issue, it seems fair to report someone official proclaiming the car fine. I might have gone a step further and taken it to a dealer; I almost took my Genesis Coupe test car to the dealer when I couldn't get reverse. It turns out that the trick is to just pull the shifter really really hard.

[Galaxy]

Took you a while, didn't it? 

Seat is not the first brand that comes to mind. Which is probably a large part of their problem.

[CaMIRO]

Aren't a lot of car reviewers former engineers? Gives them all that understanding of how things move and all?

Teuton will be pleased to hear that most of the ones I tend to like have, I believe, been English majors, or the rough equivalent (I think George Bishop studied some type of literature, not sure). I'm not sure what Gavin Green's background is, nor Mel Nichols', Ian Frasier's, etc.; but they don't write like engineers.

I'm not sure what LJK Setright's background was, but I do know that he was a self-trained engineer (and apparently trained himself so well that automakers used to let him loose in their cars before they launched them).

Among engineers, you've got Dennis Simanaitis (R&T), and the late Jeff Daniels, an aerospace engineer who used to write for evo and who wrote *the* book on Jaguar (titled, appropriately enough, Jaguar: The Engineering Story). For some reason, I'm struggling to think of others.

What would be the point of getting the car from them if I'd be afraid to talk about it? My own edification on their dime?

I agree. I suppose that if you can suggest a fix (throttle linkage) in addition to describing the problem (jerkiness), you're fine.

Have you totally moved to Europe, or is it more of a sabbatical?

Sabbatical. For the next year or so, at least. I hadn't programmed anything in a while, and when the opportunity arose, I jumped on it. Thing is, you still wind up marketing something or other.


As to the clunking issue - in this case, the importer's HQ is at the dealer. The dealer gave the car a clean bill of health, and so it clunked its way out of the service bay and back into the test...

[CaMIRO]

Seat is not the first brand that comes to mind. Which is probably a large part of their problem.

Touch

[ifcar]

I agree. I suppose that if you can suggest a fix (throttle linkage) in addition to describing the problem (jerkiness), you're fine.

I can easily describe the symptoms of a problem in lots of detail, but I can't really say too much about the cause. But it's an issue you can't miss when you drive the car; I'm sure they're aware of it.

Sabbatical. For the next year or so, at least. I hadn't programmed anything in a while, and when the opportunity arose, I jumped on it. Thing is, you still wind up marketing something or other.

What is your personal car while you're there? I seem to recall you having a Camaro in the US, or is hazy memory just mixing that up with your username?

[CaMIRO]

I can expertly describe the symptoms of a problem, but I can't really say too much about the cause.

Well, they used to say that of the best F1 drivers.

What is your personal car while you're there? I seem to recall you having a Camaro in the US, or is hazy memory just mixing that up with your username?

I am currently driving a car that absolutely no one on this board has ever driven. Guaranteed. I'd start another guessing game, but this thread is long enough. Zastava Florida In L.

And I'll briefly explain how that happened. Much though I was trying to stay out of the car industry, I wound up doing marketing for the company that once brought you the Yugo. A fun year, in many respects. I had a hand in bringing Autocar magazine to Serbia, to review Zastava's current line-up (great article, remind me to post it). Was given free reign to advocate the virtues of some rather cheap and cheerful cars (a big change from previous stuff) -

- and then Fiat steamrolled in and starting building Puntos at the factory.

Cars still in the U.S. - currently 1 Camaro, 1 Buick. The BMWs went back a while ago; and I sold the Renault, it seemed cruel to leave it parked, particularly when the guy who bought it was almost in hysterics over having found one that ran perfectly.