2009 MOTOR TREND'S BEST DRIVER'S CARS

[Nethead]

How do recalls=reliability? The fact that Chevy has caught the initial problems early, and rectified them would make me feel better.
Didn't the original Focus have a metric shit-ton of recalls? I don't think it has a reputation for terrible reliability.

Yes, you should feel better--five years in development and yet Camaros have battery cables fraying so badly that some owners had to be towed back to the dealership only forty miles after taking delivery.  In five years no one noticed "Hey, there's a problem here!"  Or did someone bring attention to it and got told to STFU?  No one noticed cracking front fascias, either, nor snapping transmission output shafts (supposedly while being abused from standing starts--who woulda thought ANYONE woulda tried that in an alleged musclecar???).  And was it the lead fairy that put lead weights on the brake calipers of Camaro SSs???  WTF is going on here???

Now that you feel better, think how magnificent those folks must feel with cars that don't have these problems because their cars were engineered properly before they left the factory instead of piece-at-a-time afterwards!  

I think Chevy may be liable for not disclosing that the Camaro is a kit car--some assembly required upon delivery...

But hey, why spend so much time jawing about the car that finished dead last in the ten-car comparo--even below a Jaguar, for God's sake ?  Far better woulda been to have included the Mazda RX-8, for instance, which woulda had a shot at the top five instead of the bottom of the bottom five (a finish made possible for the Camaro only because there were only nine other vehicles in the comparo).

[r0tor]

Far better woulda been to have included the Mazda RX-8, for instance, which woulda had a shot at the top five instead of the bottom of the bottom five (a finish made possible for the Camaro only because there were only nine other vehicles in the comparo).

it was in last years test... they aren't going to keep on inviting the same damn cars year after year after year... yeesh

[Raza]

The segment is about acceleration first and foremost.

This segment is about the same thing that every other segment is about.  Hence the improvements across the board in handling, refinement, and ride comfort.

[GoCougs]

This segment is about the same thing that every other segment is about.  Hence the improvements across the board in handling, refinement, and ride comfort.

If both the Mustang and Camaro were all-new marques for 2009(10) (i.e., no legacy upon which to draw), sales would be absolutely dismal - like GTO numbers or worse, Challenger numbers. As it is, each is on pace for ~100,000 annual sales in the worse yet most competitive market in decades.

[SVT666]

FALSE. The segment has never been about "steering" or "seats."

FALSE.  Every segment is about that now...especially ones with vehicles of a sporting nature.

Uh, huh. The Camaro's however is much more radical.

Radical designs usually get dated...by the way, what the hell does radical have to do with anything?  "Your car wins for styling cause it's more radical".

"Fun quotient?" and "higher visibility?" That just sounds desperate.

Really?  Cause I thought "fun" is what these cars are all about.

The segment is about acceleration first and foremost.

That's changing.  I live in BC which is even more mountainous then where you live and handling takes top prize for me here.  Acceleration is really nice and you and I both know I would be bragging about it if the Mustang was faster, but when it comes right down to it, handling takes the cake for where I live.

FALSE. The legacy of the '69 Camaro > legacy of any Mustang.

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.  Ever hear of the 1964.5, 1966, and 1967 Mustangs?  Ever hear of the Boss Mustangs?  Ever hear of the Shelby Mustangs?  All with more legacy then the '69 Camaro.

Um, the LOL point being $17k premium gets you an equivalent 0-60 time and tenth in the 1/4 mile.

On the street, yes.  Stick them both on a dragstrip with slicks and it's a very different story since the GT500 has no problem whatsoever with getting it's 540 hp to the ground.  On the street, where it really matters, you are correct.  I won't argue that.  The GT500 is still a much better car though and it should be for the price difference.

FALSE. The last Camaro went out with a whimper, and was hardly loved by the automotive press or the market as a whole, and arguably hadn't been since the heyday of the IROC-Z.

FALSE. People don't buy $22k - $35k products because they see it in movies - at least not to the tune of 7,500 - 9,300 a month; The movie no more helped the buzz or sales success of the Camaro than it did Peterbilt, Top Kick, Soltice, H2, Mustang, or the other vehicles featured in the films.

Whatever man.  The Camaro was the focal point.  The other vehicles had bit parts.  I guess that's why GM put the Camaro in the movie...because it wouldn't help sell it.

[Raza]

If both the Mustang and Camaro were all-new marques for 2009(10) (i.e., no legacy upon which to draw), sales would be absolutely dismal - like GTO numbers or worse, Challenger numbers. As it is, each is on pace for ~100,000 annual sales in the worse yet most competitive market in decades.

What's your point?  That legacy matters? 

Duh.

[GoCougs]

What's your point?  That legacy matters? 

Duh.

That, um, your assertion that this segment is "the same thing that every other segment is about" is not true. Any segment will naturally increment the details, but in this segment more than just about any other, it is a vastly secondary concern.

[omicron]

Careful, or you'll have Chew-Tons in here bleating about Subaru Legacies climbing Everest in three seconds with barrels of rum strapped under the bumper like faithful Saint Bernards.

[Onslaught]

The Camaro has had more recalls in its first three months of production than the S197 edition of the Mustang which entered production in the Fall of 2005--now six model years ago.  The 2004 Mustang that preceded the S197 was found by Consumer Reports to have the fewest problems per 100 vehicles (4 per 100, was it?) of any domestic vehicle for sale in the USA at that time.  And Chevy has chosen not to recall Camaro SSs to fix the breaking transmission output shafts on the six-speed manuals--nor have they explained why they had to put layers of lead weights onto Camaro SS calipers and they certainly have not offered to properly fix whatever brake/suspension problem that band-aid is supposed to correct (I think it's to reduce brake chatter when you put spinner wheel covers on your SS--those wheels are big so those equally big spinners represent substantial unsprung weight at each wheel ).  One must make some sacrifices to get that drive-thru restaurant bling...

I don't think recalls are good but they aren't the end of the world either. And overall I wouldn't use them to judge if a car will be reliable or not.  And I've worked for Ford for over 15 years. Don't get to proud about their recall record or how they go about fixing the problems sometimes.

A quick google search will show that the Mustang has had it's fair amount of recalls over the last few years. Nothing all that out of the normal for any car but it's not immune.

[Onslaught]

Only an idiot would buy a car because they saw it in a movie they liked.

But then again only an idiot would like that movie so it could work. 

Sorry, had to make a stab.

[Raza]

That, um, your assertion that this segment is "the same thing that every other segment is about" is not true. Any segment will naturally increment the details, but in this segment more than just about any other, it is a vastly secondary concern.

Ah, see, you missed it completely, Mr. Free Market.

This segment is about the one thing that every other segment is about.  What the buyer wants.  That's why handling, ride quality, et al have all improved over time, because customers demanded that. 

[Tave]

OK let's get one thing straight here. The '69 Camaro was a bad ass among bad asses. It was beautiful and strong and everything you'd ever want it to be. Hell, I've even had the pleasure of driving and riding in a mechanically-pristine SS (my neighbor and good friend got it for his 16th--talk about a cool dad).



Nothing, I repeat NOTHING is cooler than the '64 stang. Sorry, game over. We can all go home.

I would take a mint condition '64 over a mint E-type.

[Onslaught]

OK let's get one thing straight here. The '69 Camaro was a bad ass among bad asses. It was beautiful and strong and everything you'd ever want it to be. Hell, I've even had the pleasure of driving and riding in a mechanically-pristine SS (my neighbor and good friend got it for his 16th--talk about a cool dad).



Nothing, I repeat NOTHING is cooler than the '64 stang. Sorry, game over. We can all go home.

I would take a mint condition '64 over a mint E-type.

Now way. 69 Camaro is the best of them all.

[Raza]

The 64 1/2 Mustang was a bit mumsy, wasn't it?  The harder versions of 65 were definitely cooler. 

[Tave]

The 64 1/2 Mustang was a bit mumsy, wasn't it?  The harder versions of 65 were definitely cooler. 

Judges?

We'll accept anything to '66.

[Raza]

Judges?

We'll accept anything to '66.

Seconded.

[S204STi]

My grandmother owned a '66 for several decades.  She bought it new.  That would have to be my favorite all-time classic car, just because of the memories.

[Nethead]

The 64 1/2 Mustang was a bit mumsy, wasn't it?  The harder versions of 65 were definitely cooler.  

   Especially the "2+2" models (the official name of the fastback versions--hardtops (the notchbacks) and convertibles had no distinct names).  And the '65s got the 289 instead of the 260

[Nethead]

My grandmother owned a '66 for several decades.  She bought it new.  That would have to be my favorite all-time classic car, just because of the memories.

R-inge:  Grandma shoulda sold that car to you at a grandsonny price!  

[S204STi]

R-inge:  Grandma shoulda sold that car to you at a grandsonny price! 

Well, she handed it down to my aunt who had to sell it before I really made my way in the world and could afford to buy it off her.  I was devastated.

[MX793]

Judges?

We'll accept anything to '66.

64.5-66 were cool, but '67-'70 take the cake in my book (with '69 being perhaps my favorite year).  Starting in '67 you could get the 390 or 428 Cobra Jet motors in the Mustang (the 390 was what was in McQueen's car in Bullitt).  '69 marked the appearance of the grille mounted fog/driving lamps.  '69 also marked the introduction of the Boss 302/429 (as well as the first appearance of the 302 and 429 V8s in the Mustang) as well as the Mach 1 package.

[omicron]

I'll take a '65 Mustang, but a '67 Cougar.

[Nethead]

I'll take a '65 Mustang, but a '67 Cougar.

Yeah, a '67 Cougar was a slick Mustang derivative--particularly the rare dual-four-barrel 289 option offered to legitimize that carbs/intake combo in the SCCA's Trans-Am Series.

BTW, Ford Mustangs won the inaugural season of the Trans-Am Series in 1965, beating out the Dodge Darts at Riverside, CA.  It's possible that the '65 Trans-Am Championship was the first racing series won by Mustangs, a tradition that continues today...

[omicron]

Yeah, a '67 Cougar was a slick Mustang derivative--particularly the rare dual-four-barrel 289 option offered to legitimize that carbs/intake combo in the SCCA's Trans-Am Series.

BTW, Ford Mustangs won the inaugural season of the Trans-Am Series in 1965, beating out the Dodge Darts at Riverside, CA.  It's possible that the '65 Trans-Am Championship was the first racing series won by Mustangs, a tradition that continues today...

And the inaugural season of the Group C Australian Touring Car Championship in 1965.

[Nethead]

And the inaugural season of the Group C Australian Touring Car Championship in 1965.

omicron:  Thanks for that, omi!  Every day there's something new to learn!  And that's a good thing!