Lexus crash raises some questions.

[93JC]

Yes, but the way the vacuum booster works in a power braking system is using the difference between manifold vacuum and atmospheric pressure to apply more force to the master cylinder. At WOT manifold vacuum approaches atmospheric, thus the pressure difference in the vacuum booster is small and you don't get much of an assist.

Manifold vacuum at idle is usually around 20 inHg, and at WOT it's maybe 1. You don't think braking ability would be severely reduced?

[cozmik]

Three seconds? It's not like somebody will accidentally press the engine-start/stop button. Three seconds is a long time. I think if one presses the button the engine should stop (if it's running) and that's it. Three seconds? After three seconds it might be too late...

Maybe. 

The BMW 118i has an engine start/stop button and I can't for the love of Christ try to imagine how I might accidentally press it while driving. 

Yeah, it doesn't even necessarily have to be you that presses it. Other people in the car might sit there and go "I wonder what would happen if I press that button while we're moving?" Ask me how I know...

My BMW is the same, if you just press the button while moving, it won't turn off the engine. Haven't tried holding it, someone got punched before they could try...

[r0tor]

Manifold vacuum at idle is usually around 20 inHg, and at WOT it's maybe 1. You don't think braking ability would be severely reduced?

a) its more then that
b) the brakes will work even with no vacuum assist... just have to stomp down harder

[MX793]

Once a vehicle is moving, especially at highway speeds, there's no way the brakes will bring it to a stop against full throttle, especially a vehicle with moderate oomph like the 275 hp ES350.

The brakes will literally start smoking in short order, and at that time braking force will be mostly lost, with a fire to happen soon thereafter.

Ask me how I know. (Used to do it as kids.)

You smoked the brakes on a vehicle with 4 wheel discs?  I could definately see drums going up in smoke in no time, but 4 wheel discs you should have enough brakes to stop the car.  My dad knew a guy with a Dodge Viper who was saying that one day his throttle stuck and he stood on the brakes and brought things to a hault against 500 hp.

[GoCougs]

You smoked the brakes on a vehicle with 4 wheel discs?  I could definately see drums going up in smoke in no time, but 4 wheel discs you should have enough brakes to stop the car.  My dad knew a guy with a Dodge Viper who was saying that one day his throttle stuck and he stood on the brakes and brought things to a hault against 500 hp.

My time-spent-as-a-knucklehead experience tells me something a bit different. And drums vs. discs I don't think matters too much; at speed and at max power there's a lot of juice that has to be dissipated, and though discs are inherently better, they'd still be overwhelmed.

If the Viper is putting all max hp to the street I don't believe for a second that the brakes would stop it. But then I have to ask, Why didn't your dad's friend simply shift into neutral or turn off the engine, or how could the engine not bog and stall as the car slowed?

[Eye of the Tiger]

You smoked the brakes on a vehicle with 4 wheel discs?  I could definately see drums going up in smoke in no time, but 4 wheel discs you should have enough brakes to stop the car.  My dad knew a guy with a Dodge Viper who was saying that one day his throttle stuck and he stood on the brakes and brought things to a hault against 500 hp.

Ummm... the first thing I would do is press the clutch in and cut the engine, unless I was screwing around and just wanted to test how good the brakes were. 

A stuck wide-open throttled happened to me twice that time I test-drove an SHO. The first time in 1st gear was a bit crazy, and second time I popped it into a higher gear to restart the engine after I thought I had pried the pedal up from the floor with my foot, but that didn't work so I cut the engine again and pulled over.  Both times, the first thing I did was press the clutch and turn the engine off. It's not even something that I had to think about doing. Trying to brake against full throttle in 1st gear was not something that ever crossed my mind.

[MX793]

My time-spent-as-a-knucklehead experience tells me something a bit different. And drums vs. discs I don't think matters too much; at speed and at max power there's a lot of juice that has to be dissipated, and though discs are inherently better, they'd still be overwhelmed.

If the Viper is putting all max hp to the street I don't believe for a second that the brakes would stop it. But then I have to ask, Why didn't your dad's friend simply shift into neutral or turn off the engine, or how could the engine not bog and stall as the car slowed?

Drums vs discs makes a huge difference.  Drums suffer from brake fade and will burn up very quickly.  While a drum can put out plenty enough stopping force to overwhelm the tires and skid them, they don't hold up very well to sustained braking (e.g. dragging the brakes).  When it comes to braking power, they give up pretty quickly.  It's why any sort of long hill results in a semi truck cooking its brakes in no time unless the driver takes due care and uses engine braking (and the Jake) to keep speeds in check.

IIRC, the brakes on a Porsche 911 Turbo can generate (or dissipate, as it were) well over 1000 hp in stopping power.

And the Viper story I heard many years ago.  I don't recall every detail.  It's very likely he did push in the clutch and kill the motor, as I recall that the guy needed a new set of tires because the ordeal destroyed his (probably because they flatspotted).  I do recall that what caused the throttle to stick was that the engine twisted so hard in the engine bay when he floored it that it jammed the throttle linkage (I think a motor mount broke).

[Morris Minor]

The recall also covers:
? 2007 ? 2010 ES350
? 2006 ? 2010 IS250 and IS350

Toyota Consumer Safety Advisory Potential Floor Mat Interference with Accelerator Pedal
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572.aspx

Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc. takes public safety very seriously. It believes its vehicles to be among the safest on the road today.

Recent events have prompted Toyota to take a closer look at the potential for an accelerator pedal to get stuck in the full open position due to an unsecured or incompatible driver's floor mat.  A stuck open accelerator pedal may result in very high vehicle speeds and make it difficult to stop the vehicle, which could cause a crash, serious injury or death.

Toyota considers this a critical matter and will soon launch a safety campaign on specific Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Throughout the process of developing the details of the action plan, it will advise the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

Until Toyota develops a remedy, it is asking owners of specific Toyota and Lexus models to take out any removable driver?s floor mat and NOT replace it with any other floor mat. The following models are affected:

? 2007 ? 2010 Camry
? 2005 ? 2010 Avalon
? 2004 ? 2009 Prius
? 2005 ? 2010 Tacoma
? 2007 ? 2010 Tundra

Should the vehicle continue to accelerate rapidly after releasing the accelerator pedal, this could be an indication of floor mat interference.  If this occurs, Toyota recommends the driver take the following actions:

First, if it is possible and safe to do so, pull back the floor mat and dislodge it from the accelerator pedal; then pull over and stop the vehicle.

If the floor mat cannot be dislodged, then firmly and steadily step on the brake pedal with both feet. Do NOT pump the brake pedal repeatedly as this will increase the effort required to slow the vehicle.

Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.

If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF, or to ACC. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.

-If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.

-If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition, turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine. Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel.

In the event owners choose not to remove their floor mat, Toyota strongly recommends that they ensure that the correct floor mat is being used, that it is properly installed and secured, that it is not flipped over with bottom-side up, and that one floor mat is not stacked over another. Information on proper floor mat installation can be found on http://www.toyota.com.

Owners with questions or concerns, are asked to please contact the Toyota Customer Experience Center (1 800 331-4331) or consult the information posted at http://www.toyota.com

September 29, 2009

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Well, first off i feel bad for his family and the loss of loved ones.

Now that i have that out of the way, what a tard(may he rest in peace).

I can't count how many times i've heard "police officers are trained to handle a vehicle" whenever i point out how some LEO's drive like absolute tards at high(read unsafe) speeds around town.

Maybe the remaining family members can sue the local government for what is, obviously, poor training.

I've had the accelerater pedal stick on my a few times(several in one car in fact). The MOMENT that I was no longer in control of the inputs(ie, let off the gas and it still accelerated at WOT) I instantly pushed the clutch in and turned the engine off.

I guess i'm a level 30 super driver with a bash skill of 13 with automatic 2x soak. Either that or i'm not just your average fool behind the wheel of a deadly weapon(to yourself and all those around you).

Going off into a further semi drunken tangent, I still think that the government should revoke everyones license(not at once, in batches to prevent a system overload). Once revoked the citizen would have 30 days to pass a new drivers exam that includes actual driver skill and not just "keep the little needle under the number posted on the sign" 3rd grade bullshit that they throw out there just to get some tards registration fee so he can get the hell out of the way for the next idiot to pay his fee.

[Galaxy]

The floor matts covering and pushing down the pedal has happened in many cars. That is why they  all use fasteners.


I can understand that he did not know that you need to hold down the button to stop the engine, but that he did not shift into neutral is unbelivable.

[Byteme]

The floor matts covering and pushing down the pedal has happened in many cars. That is why they  all use fasteners.


I can understand that he did not know that you need to hold down the button to stop the engine, but that he did not shift into neutral is unbelivable.

The guy is tooling along fat dumb and happy and suddenly the car won't slow down when he takes his foot of the gas.  He was taken by surprise and was probably somewhat initially in a state of panic.  Not unbelievable at all to me. Remember that most people have little real knowledge of how cars work nor are they particularly interested in learning how.

[r0tor]

OMFG my company actually just sent out an e-mail about this 

[Galaxy]

The guy is tooling along fat dumb and happy and suddenly the car won't slow down when he takes his foot of the gas.  He was taken by surprise and was probably somewhat initially in a state of panic.  Not unbelievable at all to me. Remember that most people have little real knowledge of how cars work nor are they particularly interested in learning how.

I think even the biggest idiot knows at minimum that the transmission has a go forward, go backwards, and a park modus. I would assume that in a situation like this they would try and put the transmission into park. Of course the lock will not allow that, and  everse is also locked. You end up in neutral if you push the handle forward as far as it will go.

[Galaxy]

The interesting thing is that the european Toyotas (perhaps other as well) use the exact same construction, yet Toyota sees no need to recall them here. I'll let the implication sink in.

[Byteme]

I think even the biggest idiot knows at minimum that the transmission has a go forward, go backwards, and a park modus. I would assume that in a situation like this they would try and put the transmission into park. Of course the lock will not allow that, and  everse is also locked. You end up in neutral if you push the handle forward as far as it will go.

All I can say is judging by the number of incidents - apparently not.   

[2o6]

I think even the biggest idiot knows at minimum that the transmission has a go forward, go backwards, and a park modus. I would assume that in a situation like this they would try and put the transmission into park. Of course the lock will not allow that, and  everse is also locked. You end up in neutral if you push the handle forward as far as it will go.

If this were to happen to you at a decent level of speed, do you think that you'd have a clear enough head to think to do that? I know I wouldn't. I'm pretty sure I would freak out.

[JWC]

CNN just ran a report on the Toyota floormat recall and ran the 911 tape where four people were killed while on the phone with 911.  The driver didn't seem to be listening to the 911 operator, who asked at one point couldn't he turn the engine off.  What surprised me was viewers responding with "just turn the engine off".  Evidently, some people know what to do. 

The VW engine went nuts, reving up uncontrollably, a little over a week ago, but I didn't panic.   I kept trying different things and just before shutting the engine off, it straighten out. 

[r0tor]

my coworker claims he tried the push button on his altima and it will not turn off unless its in park... hmm

[JWC]

Maybe the answer isn't just to recall floormats, but to go back to key switches.

[shp4man]

With electronic engine control systems, there is a possibility of a problem being caused by radio interference. Not from radio AM talk or FM jazz, but radio frequencies generated by electrical components like alternators or ignition coils. It's possible that the electronic throttle on the Lexus was being held open by this kind of a problem, with the PCM (computer) that controls the engine systems freaked out by interference.
Why the guy didn't push the gearshift to "N", I don't know. I don't know if this car has mechanical transmission linkage- any Toyota techs here?

[S204STi]

Nah, it's pretty clear that the issue is the floor mats holding the throttle down, not electromagnetic interference.

[Galaxy]

If this were to happen to you at a decent level of speed, do you think that you'd have a clear enough head to think to do that? I know I wouldn't. I'm pretty sure I would freak out.

Perhaps I am being arrogant, but I firmly believe that if this where to happen to me I would be able to handle it. Imo putting the transmission into neutral with a run away engine would happen almost as automatically as pulling your fingers from a hot stove.

[ifcar]

my coworker claims he tried the push button on his altima and it will not turn off unless its in park... hmm

Toyota's advice is specific to its own vehicles. Nissan's keyless go might be programmed entirely differently.

[MX793]

Perhaps I am being arrogant, but I firmly believe that if this where to happen to me I would be able to handle it. Imo putting the transmission into neutral with a run away engine would happen almost as automatically as pulling your fingers from a hot stove.

This is why I like having a manual gearbox.  There's no interlocks to ever prevent the clutch from being pushed in (even though there shouldn't be any mechanism to prevent an auto from being shifted from drive into neutral), so even if for some reason you can't get the shifter out of gear, you can still cut the engine off from the wheels.

[NomisR]

this is one odd story... sadly, i believe the officers aumotive intelligence probably rates up there with the officer who ticketed my friends audi for a blown tailight despite all attempts to show him both tailights were working and the difference between the two was the rear fog light.

Your friend deserves the ticket for driving around with the fog lights on but no fog like a tool.

[r0tor]

it wasn't his audi... he didn't realize it was on -shrug-

[AutobahnSHO]

I can understand that he did not know that you need to hold down the button to stop the engine, but that he did not shift into neutral is unbelivable.

I was going to agree but I discussed this with my wife and she was CLUELESS about what to do in this kind of situation.

My thinking in this situation is that if you pressed the brakes down MODERATELY but not FULLY you could burn the brakes out without stopping.. 
ie Tard was trying to slow down (and see what would happen) rather than stop completely.

[shp4man]

It may be as I suspected, not a floormat issue. I realize some of you have a great deal of faith in the Japanese designers, but they are only human and can make mistakes.

http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=103932

[2o6]

Brakes on fire? 120MPH? Isn't this a Lexus RX? How in the world did it burst into flames?



I'm sorry, but it takes awhile to get up to 120. You could have easily moved the floor mat or gas pedal.

[MrH]

It may be as I suspected, not a floormat issue. I realize some of you have a great deal of faith in the Japanese designers, but they are only human and can make mistakes.

http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=103932

Worse designed website ever.  I refuse to trust anything from that piece of shit.