Toyota's at it again!

[GoCougs]

According to the article, they are revising the pedal and, in some cases, revising the floor pan.  

Because of the floor mat "interference."

At this point, unless I see some massively specific, detailed, and voluminous data, I have no choice but to call BS - floor mats do not jam gas pedals.

I see Toyota trying to head off a PR problem (i.e., avoid being Audi 5000'd).

[93JC]

Aren't all recalls really just heading off a PR problem?

I also fail to see how this is really a "design flaw". It seems quite clearly to be "user error".

Oh well. I'm sure you're quite familiar with the difficulties in anticipating how users will neglect, abuse and misuse a product or system you've helped design.

[ChrisV]

"Admit"? I don't think it was ever in dispute that engines are more powerful than brakes. That's why you're taught (in theory, anyway) that you take the car out of gear.

Even drag cars with skinny front tires can hold back HUGE slicks being twisted by 1000+ hp engines. Properly functioning brakes should ALWAYS be able to stop a car that has full throttle applied. It will take a bit longer, but they should be much more powerful. I mean, that's how we can do left foot braking on the track in a FWD car and make it actually be useful.

And in a car with an automatic it's even more likely to stop the car with the brakes while under full throttle and you can make the torque converter slip and not provide power to the wheels.

Don't pump the brakss, however, as that depletes the vacuum assist and you WILL end up with no brakes.

http://www.valvoline.com/car-care/automotive-system/brakes/ccr20020201hb

"All modern braking systems are many times more powerful than the vehicle's engine, so at full throttle, even a very powerful vehicle can be easily stopped with the brakes."

[GoCougs]

A car at rest does not have kinetic energy (KE); brakes merely have to hold back drive train torque.  At speed however the brakes must absorb substantial amounts of KE. An ES350 that has both throttle and brakes applied at maximum at freeway speed will not be stop by the brakes.

Plus a torque converter will actually make things a bit worse; when it slips it moves the engine higher up in the RPM range where it makes more power (and why drag racers use high slip converters).

And power brakes will still work without vacuum; they'll just be much harder to operate.

[ChrisV]

A car at rest does not have kinetic energy (KE); brakes merely have to hold back drive train torque.  At speed however the brakes must absorb substantial amounts of KE. An ES350 that has both throttle and brakes applied at maximum at freeway speed will not be stop by the brakes.

Thing is, I'm actually agreeing with you, in that it's usually driver error, just like in the Audi case. In fact, if the problem was what trial lawyers and complainants said it was, the recommended fix (an dthe one that everyone agreed to) would not even work! I'm talking about the lockout that requires you to be holding the brake before shifting the car into D. If the cars really were taking off at high rates of speed no matter how hard the "victim" pressed the brake, then a a device requiring them to press the brake before shifting into Drive would be ineffective... And yet they were pacified by that regulatory action...

But, braking experts agree, factory brakes on a car or light truck are more than powerful enough to stop a car from full throttle unless something fails in the braking system as well.

[ChrisV]

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/driving/articles/122660/article.html

What I like is this first step in what to do with a racing throttle:

"If the engine started racing when you pushed the brake, release the brake. If the engine stops racing, you were actually pushing the gas by mistake"

But the last bit in the article is this:

"Know this: In every well-maintained modern car, the brakes will easily overpower the engine. If you're truly pushing the brakes as hard as you can, the car will stop even with the engine going full speed."

[VTEC_Inside]

I don't question that the brakes on a modern car should be able to stop the vehicle even at full throttle at say 60mph, but only if used properly.

Most people have never stepped on the brakes as hard as possible. In a panic situation I could easily see someone trying to slow the car down, but without enough pressure. By the time they realize what they need to do, the brakes are cooked and will have a really hard time slowing the vehicle.

[GoCougs]

It's not a strength issue. It's a heat issue. Brakes slow a car down by absorbing the kinetic energy of the car and converting it to heat. Applying throttle against the brakes is asking the brakes to dissipate even more heat - using the ES350 example ~175 kW of heat, which overwhelms the brakes in short order.

I'd suggest trying it for yourself but be forewarned that by the time you realize that your brakes will not stop your car they likely will already be damaged.

[Byteme]

But, braking experts agree, factory brakes on a car or light truck are more than powerful enough to stop a car from full throttle unless something fails in the braking system as well.

So Toyota is in error when it concedes that brakes might not be able to stop a car at full throttle?

[VTEC_Inside]

So Toyota is in error when it concedes that brakes might not be able to stop a car at full throttle?

Toyota isn't wrong by saying that because depending how the brakes are used up to and including during the incident, they might not be able to.

I thought someone posted a link in this thread to the guy that actually tried it in an ES300.

He tried three times in succession, starting at 60ish mph, WOT and standing on the brakes.

First time he tried it, the car stopped. Second time it stopped, but had more trouble doing so. Third time, the car slowed but would not have stopped.

If you use that as an example, you basically have two chances against the engine at WOT. If you hesitate at all you will very quickly generate sufficient heat in the brakes that you're screwed.

[FoMoJo]

An interesting article...Experts point to throttles, not floor mats, in Toyota incidents

Eric Weiss was stopped at a busy Long Beach, Calif., intersection last month when he said his 2008 Toyota Tacoma pickup unexpectedly started accelerating, forcing him to stand on the brakes to keep the bucking truck from plowing into oncoming cars.

Toyota Motor Corp. says the gas pedal design in Weiss' truck and more than 4 million other Toyota and Lexus vehicles makes them vulnerable to being trapped open by floor mats, and recently announced a costly recall to fix the problem.

But Weiss is convinced his incident wasn't caused by a floor mat. He said he removed the mats in his truck months earlier on the advice of his Toyota dealer after his truck suddenly accelerated and rear-ended a BMW.
"The brakes squealed and the engine roared," the 52-year-old cabinet maker said of the most recent episode. "I don't want to drive the truck anymore, but I don't want anyone else to, either."

Amid widening concern over unintended acceleration events, including an Aug. 28 crash near San Diego that killed a California Highway Patrol officer and his family, Toyota has repeatedly pointed to "floor mat entrapment" as the problem.

But accounts from motorists such as Weiss, interviews with auto safety experts and a Los Angeles Times review of thousands of federal traffic safety incident reports point to another potential cause: the electronic throttles that have replaced mechanical systems in recent years.

The Times found that complaints of sudden acceleration in many Toyota and Lexus vehicles shot up almost immediately after the automaker adopted the so-called drive-by-wire system over the past decade. That system uses sensors, microprocessors and electric motors to connect the driver's foot to the engine, rather than a traditional link such as a steel cable.

For some Toyota models, reports of unintended acceleration increased more than five-fold after drive-by-wire systems were adopted, according to the review of thousands of consumer complaints filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Toyota first installed electronic throttles in 2002 model year Lexus ES and Toyota Camry sedans. Total complaints of sudden acceleration for the Lexus and Camry in the 2002-04 model years averaged 132 a year. That's up from an average of 26 annually for the 1999-2001 models, the Times review found.

The average number of sudden acceleration complaints involving the Tacoma jumped more than 20 times, on average, in the three years after Toyota's introduction of drive-by-wire in these trucks in 2005. Increases were also found on the hybrid Prius, among other models.


...see more information in the link.

[GoCougs]

Again, not one shred of data or evidence; from an independent source or Toyota.

Having worked on/near/around such control systems, my strong hunch is that the statistical likelihood that such a system would fail in such a manner is astronomically small - it'd have to be to get myriad industry and governmental safety approvals.

This itself is not evidence but given the reality of designing and deploying such systems it'd take a mountain of data to convince me it's an inherent flaw in the throttle system ("extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence").

[r0tor]

For some Toyota models, reports of unintended acceleration increased more than five-fold after drive-by-wire systems were adopted, according to the review of thousands of consumer complaints filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Toyota first installed electronic throttles in 2002 model year Lexus ES and Toyota Camry sedans. Total complaints of sudden acceleration for the Lexus and Camry in the 2002-04 model years averaged 132 a year. That's up from an average of 26 annually for the 1999-2001 models, the Times review found.

five fold is so much more powerful of words then 106 out of a quarter million cars

[FoMoJo]

The article is interesting for the fact that the guy had removed his floor mats and still experienced unexpected ecceleration.  As well, the statistics stating the profound increase in the number of these incidents after Toyota had switched to DBW is rather telling.

[ifcar]

The article is interesting for the fact that the guy had removed his floor mats and still experienced unexpected ecceleration.  As well, the statistics stating the profound increase in the number of these incidents after Toyota had switched to DBW is rather telling.

But that doesn't prove that he just wasn't pushing the gas by mistake.

The only bit of actual evidence has been that Toyotas have more "unintended acceleration" complaints than anyone else -- the individual anecdotes don't show anything.

[GoCougs]

I think we can all agree that the floor mat excuse was PR bull. At best Toyota was simply stating that's the only failure scenario they were able to duplicate and at worst Toyota was simply throwing something out there to look like they were doing something about it.

[FoMoJo]

But that doesn't prove that he just wasn't pushing the gas by mistake.

The only bit of actual evidence has been that Toyotas have more "unintended acceleration" complaints than anyone else -- the individual anecdotes don't show anything.

"The brakes squealed and the engine roared," the 52-year-old cabinet maker said of the most recent episode. "I don't want to drive the truck anymore, but I don't want anyone else to, either."

Unless he was lying, I don't see that the brakes would be squealing if he was pressing the accelerator by mistake.  With the Audi 5000, they had an accelerator pedal that was a fair bit larger than most North Americans were used to so it was quite plausible that they had mistaken the accelerator pedal for the brake pedal.  I don't know if that's the case with Toyota.

[GoCougs]

The other issue is that these are disparate vehicle platforms, engines and chassis layouts; Camry/ES, Tacoma, Prius? I highly doubt they're using the same throttle system, but they could be (I'd have to see data).

Further, I'm pretty sure a good statistician would have something to say about the statistical significance of the complaints; 26 a year to 132 a year on a vehicle selling ~450,000+ units a year is indeed 5x increase, but that doesn't automatically mean it is a reliable indicator that there is a problem given the sheer size of the population.

[ifcar]

"The brakes squealed and the engine roared," the 52-year-old cabinet maker said of the most recent episode. "I don't want to drive the truck anymore, but I don't want anyone else to, either."

Unless he was lying, I don't see that the brakes would be squealing if he was pressing the accelerator by mistake.  With the Audi 5000, they had an accelerator pedal that was a fair bit larger than most North Americans were used to so it was quite plausible that they had mistaken the accelerator pedal for the brake pedal.  I don't know if that's the case with Toyota.

It's the case with any variety of people in any variety of cars. This is from the article you posted:

Richard Schmidt, a former University of California, Los Angeles, psychology professor and consultant specializing in human motor skills, said the problem almost always lies with drivers who step on the wrong pedal.
"When the driver says they have their foot on the brake, they are just plain wrong," Schmidt said. "The human motor system is not perfect and it doesn't always do what it is told."

[NomisR]

It's the case with any variety of people in any variety of cars. This is from the article you posted:

Richard Schmidt, a former University of California, Los Angeles, psychology professor and consultant specializing in human motor skills, said the problem almost always lies with drivers who step on the wrong pedal.
"When the driver says they have their foot on the brake, they are just plain wrong," Schmidt said. "The human motor system is not perfect and it doesn't always do what it is told."

Like that old guy that mowed down 11 people at a farmer's market a few years ago... if they heard of this back then, they could've claimed it was the accelerator that got stuck...

[Eye of the Tiger]

Like that old guy that mowed down 11 people at a farmer's market a few years ago... if they heard of this back then, they could've claimed it was the accelerator that got stuck...

It's the people's fault for going to a farmer's market.

[FoMoJo]

Problems continue for Toyota...Feds probe stalling reports in 2 Toyota models

Federal safety officials have opened a probe into two models of Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles after drivers reported that their cars stalled in traffic, sometimes at highway speeds.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration posted a document late this week launching the investigation into Toyota's Matrix and Corolla cars. It's just the latest in a recent string of quality-related issues for the Japanese automaker.

The document cited 26 complaints from drivers of 2006 model year Matrix and Corolla vehicles. Consumers "allege stalls occurring randomly while driving, including some on highways and some in intersections," the agency stated.
Federal safety officials have opened a probe into two models of Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles after drivers reported that their cars stalled in traffic, sometimes at highway speeds.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration posted a document late this week launching the investigation into Toyota's Matrix and Corolla cars. It's just the latest in a recent string of quality-related issues for the Japanese automaker.

The document cited 26 complaints from drivers of 2006 model year Matrix and Corolla vehicles. Consumers "allege stalls occurring randomly while driving, including some on highways and some in intersections," the agency stated.

The new investigation is another blow to an automaker that has seen its long-held reputation for quality come under attack amid a flurry of safety-related recalls and investigations this year.

When it rains it pours .  Even Leno's been getting into the act.

[GoCougs]

Just a contextual comment - Toyota sold ~400,000 of that model in 2006; meaning 26 represents 0.0065%.

I'd be interested to see how many of the "complaints" are with the manual transmission...

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I'd be interested to see how many of the "complaints" are with the manual transmission...

[AutobahnSHO]

Hey, people driving vanilla cars don't make mistakes.

[CALL_911]

I'd be interested to see how many of the "complaints" are with the manual transmission...

lololololol

[GoCougs]

But seriously, of ~400,000 think that at least 26 would naive/ignorant/stupid enough not to connect the dots between poor usage of the clutch and stalling the engine?

[Raza]

But seriously, of ~400,000 think that at least 26 would naive/ignorant/stupid enough not to connect the dots between poor usage of the clutch and stalling the engine?

How do you stall an engine on the highway?

[VTEC_Inside]

I meant to post this earlier, but I wonder how many Toyota owners have had trouble with the gas pedal doing nothing, or delayed response?

My dads '05 Highlander is pretty bad on that front. I was in it once when a car pulling out of a driveway just about drove right into us. My dad floored it and I swear the thing shut right down for a second before taking off. Apparently this was a common thing at least on the Highlander.

Of course thats not as exciting as getting stuck at WOT, so no/little news coverage.

[GoCougs]

How do you stall an engine on the highway?

Slow down for traffic and don't shift into a lower gear...