Toyota's at it again!

[VTEC_Inside]

To start with, all drivers should be given only a Swift license until they can pass more stringent exams to operate larger, more powerful vehicles.

I'd have no problem with that.

[Byteme]

Pretty much all cars have a fuel shutoff. When they are on the rev limiter for XXX seconds, it automatically cuts fuel.



And why did the guy shift back into drive? How stupid.

If my car did that I sure as heck wouldn't have started it and then driven it to the dealership. I would have been on the horn to AAA in a heartbeat.

[FoMoJo]

Uh Oh!

I lost my connection when I tried to post to this thread.  Toyota must have found out about it!

[FoMoJo]

If my car did that I sure as heck wouldn't have started it and then driven it to the dealership. I would have been on the horn to AAA in a heartbeat.

According to his story, when he got it stopped, the engine wouldn't shut down after pressing the start/stop switch several times and it was reving near the redline.  He thought it might blow up so he put it back into drive.

It was mentioned somewhere, that the start/stop button should be held down for 3 seconds in an emergency.  I wonder how many people know that?

[GoCougs]

Read the NHTSA petition denial.  Read the evidence. The floor mats are a problem IF INSTALLED INCORRECTLY.  THe dealer played the right card, they told what is likely the truth regarding the cause of the problem.

In the ultra mega uber unlikely event a floor mat actually jams an accelerator, modern vehicles have safety measures as noted in this thread.

Thus, I remain 100% unconvinced that it is the cause of the problems as described (i.e., extended periods of engine runaway).

[FoMoJo]

In the ultra mega uber unlikely event a floor mat actually jams an accelerator, modern vehicles have safety measures as noted in this thread.

Thus, I remain 100% unconvinced that it is the cause of the problems as described (i.e., extended periods of engine runaway).

So, what do you think is causing this problem?  Computer glitches?  Problems with the sending/receiving units?

[GoCougs]

So, what do you think is causing this problem?  Computer glitches?  Problems with the sending/receiving units?

98+% chance the same as with the Audi 5000 issue - user error.

[S204STi]

You may have noticed I used a  emoticon on this topic.

It's not so much the problem but how Toyota respond to it.

I wasn't trying to imply that you were incorrect in bringing it up, or even your interpretation, but by presenting a good synopsis of what happened it helps me to interpret things in perhaps a different manner.

[S204STi]

Pretty much all cars have a fuel shutoff. When they are on the rev limiter for XXX seconds, it automatically cuts fuel.

This isn't necessarily true.  Most cars simply limit fuel in order to provide a rev limit, but they won't necessarily cut all power in the case of an over-rev. 

[S204STi]

According to his story, when he got it stopped, the engine wouldn't shut down after pressing the start/stop switch several times and it was reving near the redline.  He thought it might blow up so he put it back into drive.

It was mentioned somewhere, that the start/stop button should be held down for 3 seconds in an emergency.  I wonder how many people know that?

If they read their owner's manual like they should, then yes they would know it. 

One interesting note, the customer was pulling up on the accelerator pedal yet no change occurred in engine speed.  With these DBW systems you have basically a potentiometer at the pedal with some weights and springs to simulate the normal resistance of a cable-operated system.  I wonder if anyone has tested the pedal assemblies on the effected vehicles to determine whether they are shorting to a WOT signal?  I know from the number of failed fuel level sensor potentiometers that I deal with that they can fail in such a way as to create erratic signals.  I don't think this is necessarily the case here, but perhaps for the sake of discussion it would be interesting to find out.

[FoMoJo]

I wasn't trying to imply that you were incorrect in bringing it up, or even your interpretation ...it didn't occur to me that you were... but by presenting a good synopsis of what happened it helps me to interpret things in perhaps a different manner.

I think Toyota gets away with far too much in their PR blitzes.  They are on a huge marketing campaign right now and something like this can derail them if not handled in a forthright manner.  They seem to be trying to dance around the problem rather than addressing the issue.  Other manufacturers, even Ford, do the same; but, usually, get hammered for it.

If they read their owner's manual like they should, then yes they would know it. 

One interesting note, the customer was pulling up on the accelerator pedal yet no change occurred in engine speed.  With these DBW systems you have basically a potentiometer at the pedal with some weights and springs to simulate the normal resistance of a cable-operated system.  I wonder if anyone has tested the pedal assemblies on the effected vehicles to determine whether they are shorting to a WOT signal?  I know from the number of failed fuel level sensor potentiometers that I deal with that they can fail in such a way as to create erratic signals.  I don't think this is necessarily the case here, but perhaps for the sake of discussion it would be interesting to find out.

I noticed that as well.  An erractic electronic component may be hard to nail down.

[S204STi]

Yes, very hard to nail down. 

[Laconian]

If the problem's a software issue, and they don't have trace data from the affected vehicles, they're going to be hard pressed to reproduce it. Software introduces a level of nondeterminism to a system that makes thorough testing a big challenge.

[NomisR]

According to his story, when he got it stopped, the engine wouldn't shut down after pressing the start/stop switch several times and it was reving near the redline.  He thought it might blow up so he put it back into drive.

It was mentioned somewhere, that the start/stop button should be held down for 3 seconds in an emergency.  I wonder how many people know that?

Most people on this board probably knows now. 

But I never understood the need to have a start/stop button.  I can see the need to go fuel injection or starter or whatever modern conveniences, but having a button while you still have to plug something into the car, like with BMWs for example without the keyless option, it doesn't make sense.  Might as well go with a simple key setup. 

[Morris Minor]

I sent my kids on driving courses, where they were taught what to do in emergency situations. A couple of things that were highlighted.

You can swerve a car much more violently than you think you can. Most of the time it will stay upright & swerving is usually (given that you scan your mirrors every 10 seconds) better than driving into the refrigerator that dropped off the truck in front of you.

With anti-lock brakes you can steer AND brake. You should be standing on the brake as hard as you possibly can.

Most drivers don't know what to do in emergencies such as the ones in this Toyota situation. I would like to think that if I were in the impossibly unlikely situation of being stuck with a WOT AND unable switch off the engine, I would put it in neutral then brake. Who cares if the engine blows up? But who's to know how I'd react in the heat of the moment? I've never been taught.

[r0tor]

Data from the NHTSA indicates that the brakes were used at full strength. And, yes, any vehicle with a throttle by wire system should for sure go into limp-home mode if full gas and full brakes are on for an substantial amount of time, that indicates that something is wrong. Whether other cars from other companies do that or not is immaterial because they should.

interestingly enough i just read an S4 review a couple days ago where the tester was bitching that if your on the gas and apply the brake, the gas cuts off... making the popular left footed braking maneuvers some people use very frustrating

[VTEC_Inside]

If they read their owner's manual like they should, then yes they would know it. 

One interesting note, the customer was pulling up on the accelerator pedal yet no change occurred in engine speed.  With these DBW systems you have basically a potentiometer at the pedal with some weights and springs to simulate the normal resistance of a cable-operated system.  I wonder if anyone has tested the pedal assemblies on the effected vehicles to determine whether they are shorting to a WOT signal?  I know from the number of failed fuel level sensor potentiometers that I deal with that they can fail in such a way as to create erratic signals.  I don't think this is necessarily the case here, but perhaps for the sake of discussion it would be interesting to find out.

I've installed an aftermarket cruise system on a 2007 Civic and when I did, I had to intercept two wires from the DBW pedal assembly.

If I remember correctly, the pedal assembly actually has two potentiometers in it, hence the requirement to intercept both for the cruise to work.

So it would seem that at least in the Civic both would have to fail spontaneously.

I have to believe that every car with DBW has some sort of redundancy like this in the pedal switch though.

[S204STi]

Yeah, that makes sense.  I bet you're correct, there must be some sort of redundancy.

[3.0L V6]

Maybe switching back to the old fashioned key to start/stop a vehicle might be an option to consider. At least it's idiot-proof.

[VTEC_Inside]

Maybe switching back to the old fashioned key to start/stop a vehicle might be an option to consider. At least it's idiot-proof.

I don't see why it can't be a dummy turn switch instead of a button.

That way you get to keep the "keyless" feature, but with a method that everyone is used to. It also provides for a switch with an OFF position, rather than a dual purpose start/stop button.

[ifcar]

I don't see why it can't be a dummy turn switch instead of a button.

That way you get to keep the "keyless" feature, but with a method that everyone is used to. It also provides for a switch with an OFF position, rather than a dual purpose start/stop button.

Makes sense to me.

[CALL_911]

Fuck all this shit, I vote for a return of switchblade keys!

[2o6]

Fuck all this shit, I vote for a return of switchblade keys!

I don't like switchblade keys. I think they're too fat.

[Cookie Monster]

Fuck all this shit, I vote for a return of switchblade keys!

Screw switchblades, original, get-them-cut-anywhere metal keys are the best!

[MrH]

interestingly enough i just read an S4 review a couple days ago where the tester was bitching that if your on the gas and apply the brake, the gas cuts off... making the popular left footed braking maneuvers some people use very frustrating

How do you heal toe then?

[CALL_911]

Screw switchblades, original, get-them-cut-anywhere metal keys are the best!

Yeah, I'll go ahead with the switchblade.

[CALL_911]

How do you heal toe then?

Go to the emergency room.

[Cookie Monster]

Yeah, I'll go ahead with the switchblade.

Switchblades suck. They are thick and heavy... regular metal keys are much nicer. They are thinner and much easier to duplicate.

[Rupert]

Screw switchblades, original, get-them-cut-anywhere metal keys are the best!

[CALL_911]

Switchblades suck. They are thick and heavy... regular metal keys are much nicer. They are thinner and much easier to duplicate.

I like the keyless entry function, and they're solid as hell. Plus, I like playing with the flip out mechanism.

I'd MUCH rather a switchblade than a metal key with a remote dangling off of it.