Toyota's at it again!

[Cookie Monster]

I like the keyless entry function, and they're solid as hell. Plus, I like playing with the flip out mechanism.

I'd MUCH rather a switchblade than a metal key with a remote dangling off of it.

Remotes suck as well.

[Byteme]

Remotes suck as well.

The trouble I've had with remotes is that the tab that attaches to the key ring breaks.  I'm OK with a remote with a decent key ring attachment point.  I'll take a switchblade key but wonder what it will cost if and when it stops working.  

More or less on topic I'm of the opinion that a seperate starter button is noting more than a "gee-whiz" gadget with no real useful functionality over a keyed ignition.  I'd prefer a keyed ignition that doesn't lock the steering when you trun off the ignition.  That feature was originally an anti theft feature.  Modern alarm systems and other antitheftmeasures have made it unnecessary, IMHO.

[S204STi]

The switchblade keys aren't cheap.  Regular blanks, even security blanks, can be had on the cheap from a lot of locksmiths.  Having the remote separate is better IMO.

[Morris Minor]

We are kind of into the "human override vs. fly-by-wire computers" debate that started with HAL in "2001 Space Odyssey" and continued with "Airbus." What is so complicated about providing a simple unambiguous "off" switch?

[Submariner]

I guess I'm going to go against the consensus here and say I like the electronic Fobs Mercedes, amongst other brands, use. 

[NomisR]

How do you heel toe then?

You don't need to because they assume everyone prefers their dual clutch system over standard manual.

[NomisR]

We are kind of into the "human override vs. fly-by-wire computers" debate that started with HAL in "2001 Space Odyssey" and continued with "Airbus." What is so complicated about providing a simple unambiguous "off" switch?

Because, there will be stupid people that will be driving around at 90 mph and then retardedly pushing the off button shutting down the car and flipping the car on the freeway because they are retarded.   I can see that scenario happen already. 

[r0tor]

How do you heal toe then?

i believe that would be the chief complaint if your have an S4 with manual.  With the DSG it just prevents you from doing left footed braking (which is also popular on the track...)

[r0tor]

I love playing with my switchblade key... i think i only paid about $70 for the thing off of e-bay

[giant_mtb]

Because, there will be stupid people that will be driving around at 90 mph and then retardedly pushing the off button shutting down the car and flipping the car on the freeway because they are retarded.   I can see that scenario happen already. 

Perhaps it could be a "kill switch that shifts into neutral automatically" button.

[NomisR]

Perhaps it could be a "kill switch that shifts into neutral automatically" button.

That means you'll have to give up more control of your car to the computer.  So the transmission would be more similar to that of the BMW 7 Series or the new Prius where you have a little switch thing?  No thanks. 

And what if that malfunctions?  If something as simple as DBW can do it, I wouldn't trust something like what you proposed.

[Cookie Monster]

The trouble I've had with remotes is that the tab that attaches to the key ring breaks.  I'm OK with a remote with a decent key ring attachment point.  I'll take a switchblade key but wonder what it will cost if and when it stops working.   

More or less on topic I'm of the opinion that a seperate starter button is noting more than a "gee-whiz" gadget with no real useful functionality over a keyed ignition.  I'd prefer a keyed ignition that doesn't lock the steering when you trun off the ignition.  That feature was originally an anti theft feature.  Modern alarm systems and other antitheftmeasures have made it unnecessary, IMHO.

I usually don't use the remote anyways. The batteries in both the fobs for the Accord are dead so I end up having to use the key anyways.

[hotrodalex]

Or you just use a regular key system. And learn how to bump it into neutral and switch the ignition to ACC.

[Byteme]

Interesting artyicle in the LA times on this.  And the NTHSA and Toyota admit that brakes may be insufficient to stop a car that is under full acceleration.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall8-2009nov08,0,6120294.story?page=3

[ifcar]

Interesting artyicle in the LA times on this.  And the NTHSA and Toyota admit that brakes may be insufficient to stop a car that is under full acceleration.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall8-2009nov08,0,6120294.story?page=3

"Admit"? I don't think it was ever in dispute that engines are more powerful than brakes. That's why you're taught (in theory, anyway) that you take the car out of gear.

[S204STi]

At a rest I can put a car to WOT with the brakes applied and it doesn't move.  I guess if you already have momentum working against you the results may be different though.

[GoCougs]

Interesting artyicle in the LA times on this.  And the NTHSA and Toyota admit that brakes may be insufficient to stop a car that is under full acceleration.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall8-2009nov08,0,6120294.story?page=3

That's pretty much how it's always been, especially nowadays with vehicles so much more powerful than in times past; once a car is underway, especially at freeway speeds, you'll likely not bring it to a stop at WOT with just the brakes.

Plus, out of all those complaints and investigations, not one defect nor shred of data has been found in any of those cases. The absence of evidence doesn't prove there isn't a problem, but seems like a lot of man-hours have been put into the effort, and not one iota of merit has been found to the notion of "unintended" acceleration.

[Morris Minor]

Because, there will be stupid people that will be driving around at 90 mph and then retardedly pushing the off button shutting down the car and flipping the car on the freeway because they are retarded.   I can see that scenario happen already. 

But aren't hundreds of millions of cars already on the road with just such a facility?  I'm pretty sure that if I turn the keys in my cars to the "Acc" position, the engines will shut off.

[Byteme]

"Admit"? I don't think it was ever in dispute that engines are more powerful than brakes. That's why you're taught (in theory, anyway) that you take the car out of gear.

IIRC,there were some here arguing that the brakes would stop a car under full throttle.  That was just a bit of information for them.

[FoMoJo]

Interesting artyicle in the LA times on this.  And the NTHSA and Toyota admit that brakes may be insufficient to stop a car that is under full acceleration.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall8-2009nov08,0,6120294.story?page=3

It's hard to say who's more anxious for it to go away.  Toyota or the NHTSA .

When the agency asked Toyota to disgorge all of the reports it knew about, the company eliminated an unknown number in five broad categories, including cases in which drivers said they were unable to control a runaway engine by applying the brakes.

In closing the probe, federal investigators said only 20 cases were considered relevant.

But The Times' examination of consumer complaints and a sampling of reports from Toyota dealers found more than 400 reports of sudden acceleration involving those models. And federal records show that the NHTSA knew about 260 of those cases and another 114 cases identified by Toyota.

As for its position that brakes can always overcome a vehicle's engine, the safety agency and Toyota now acknowledge that a braking system cannot always counter a wide-open throttle, as is the case in sudden acceleration.

The NHTSA began investigating the problem of sudden acceleration in the mid-1980s, after a flood of complaints about the Audi 5000. One outgrowth of the subsequent investigation was the NHTSA view that acceleration events at high speed are a different issue than events at low speed.

In 2005, for example, Jordan Ziprin of Phoenix, who had experienced a minor accident he blamed on sudden acceleration, filed a defect petition with the NHTSA that included nearly 1,200 owner complaints about Toyota vehicles. The automaker argued that the majority should be eliminated because they dealt "with two completely different issues."

When owners said the "vehicle unintentionally or suddenly 'accelerated,' " Toyota claimed that represented a different issue than when they said "the vehicle 'surged' or 'lurched.' " The NHTSA ultimately went a step further, eliminating every single complaint except Ziprin's, finding them to have "ambiguous significance."

The agency also has thrown out evidence for other reasons. In 2008, the NHTSA opened a probe of the Toyota Tacoma after a consumer found that the truck had accumulated 32 times as many sudden-acceleration complaints as any other pickup. But Toyota at the time said the complaints stemmed from "media and Internet exposure." The NHTSA closed the case without a finding after it whittled down a list of more than 450 complaints to just 62.

[NomisR]

But aren't hundreds of millions of cars already on the road with just such a facility?  I'm pretty sure that if I turn the keys in my cars to the "Acc" position, the engines will shut off.

Yeah, but a button is different.. you can more easily accidentally push a button than turn a key. 

But then again, shutting doesn the engine at speed doesn't really do much except you lose power steering and power brakes.. And with the complexity of modern electronic systems with a little toggle switch for transmission.. I wonder how people can switch to neutral again and restart the car..

[shp4man]

Electronic throttle control or ETC uses two potentiometers on both the throttle pedal inside and the throttle body on the engine. If there is a mismatch in any potentiometer, the computer or PCM will set the system to "limp home" mode and latch a code in the PCM. If the PCM in the Lexus lost battery power, all the codes set would have been lost.
I've heard several stories about this from independent mechanics. I don't know how true any of them are. One of them is that Toyota came out with a PCM reprogram that shuts off the throttle when the brakes are applied. This was supposedly 4 days after the accident. Another is that after 65mph, you can't shift into neutral on this car.
I work on Fords, so I don't know a whole lot about Toyotas.

[MrH]

i believe that would be the chief complaint if your have an S4 with manual.  With the DSG it just prevents you from doing left footed braking (which is also popular on the track...)

Woah.  I would think I would have heard this in the reviews coming out on it.  I just finished reading one in this month's Automobile, and there wasn't a mention of it.  They tested the 6-speed too.

[JWC]

News Alert
07:50 AM EDT Wednesday, November 25, 2009

Toyota to replace 3.8M gas pedals

Toyota Motor Corp. said Wednesday it will replace accelerator pedals on 3.8 million recalled vehicles in the United States to address problems with the pedals becoming jammed in the floor mat.

[FoMoJo]

That makes a bit more sense.  I couldn't imagine how just a slipped floormat could jam the pedal to the floor.

Toyota to fix 4 million gas pedals

The Japanese automaker also said it would install a brake override system on some of the models as "an extra measure of confidence." The recall was expanded from the initial 3.8 million announced in September because of sales of vehicles since then.

Toyota will reconfigure the gas pedal and, in some cases, reshape the floor surface under the pedal, to prevent unsecured mats from sliding and interfering with the gas pedal, the agency and automaker said.
Toyota said dealers initially will shave about three-quarters of an inch from accelerator pedals. Replacement pedals will become available starting in April, but the replacements will be identical to the dealer-shortened pedals.

[GoCougs]

I'm still having a real hard time believing that it's the floor mat. A real hard time.

[Tave]

Meh--I bought some generic all-weather rubber mats for the Aveo this summer. They don't have a hole that attaches to the little floor-mat hook next to the seat. The new mat tends to ride up a little, and once my clutch got stuck on it.

I can see how this easily might happen: Toyota owner goes to wash his car, takes out his mats to vaccum them, throws the mats back in the car without hooking them their restraint, after a couple weeks it wedges itself beneath the pedals...

[FoMoJo]

I'm still having a real hard time believing that it's the floor mat. A real hard time.

According to the article, they are revising the pedal and, in some cases, revising the floor pan. 

[FoMoJo]

Meh--I bought some generic all-weather rubber mats for the Aveo this summer. They don't have a hole that attaches to the little floor-mat hook next to the seat. The new mat tends to ride up a little, and once my clutch got stuck on it.

I can see how this easily might happen: Toyota owner goes to wash his car, takes out his mats to vaccum them, throws the mats back in the car without hooking them their restraint, after a couple weeks it wedges itself beneath the pedals...

I had mats that prevented the gas pedal from being floored but never any that kept the gas pedal floored.

[Tave]

It might happen if the mat has ridden up to the point on the floorboard right where the bottom of the pedal hits the floor when fully depressed. You go to hit the gas and the very tip slips behind the mat. Your foot is on the mat so it prevents the pedal from lifting under its own return action.

At least that's how it worked with mah clutch.