Peugeot 407 -v- Opel Insignia

[mzziaz]

No, they sell them that cheap. It's really incredible. Sometimes, like in this case, you get more than 50% rebate. They sell (re)-imported cars and sell outs. They even pay you a hotel near the dealer, if you come to pick up a car.

I like the C6 a lot. I usually prefer more sportive cars, but this has something special. My dad's first car after he graduated was a CX. If the C6 is going to be a very cheap used car I might be "stuntin' like my daddy" soon.... 

My dad used to have a CX too 
Those cars have scary long time effects. 

[CaMIRO]

I have to disagree with the idea that the 407 is bottom of the class. It's certainly better than anything the Koreans offer in this class, in Europe (and a better drive than the Toyota Avensis, or anything the Koreans or Toyota offer in America, too), and it's a good deal more fluid and supple than the Alfa Romeo 159 or SEAT Exeo. And I know VWs have their fans - the no-feedback steering and lack of vertical bobbing apparently remind y'all that you've bought a stoically solid car - but I generally find them unnecessarily stiff and distant. The Mk4 Jetta remains one of the most disappointing cars I've ever driven, and yet I know 2 owners who think they're driving a budget Bimmer. To each their own.

Discounting the awful 307, Peugeot gets suspensions right more often than most; indeed, only BMW, Porsche, and Citroen, in my opinion, can compare with regard to a consistently impressive ride/ handling compromise, and general suspension wizardry. Peugeot, remember, remains the only manufacturer that builds its own dampers. That's how seriously they take this stuff. Each set of dampers matches a particular engine (i.e.: curb weight) and set of wheels (which is, really, the way it should be; but I doubt every manufacturer does this to the extent Peugeot does and, as far as I'm aware, no one else does shocks and struts in-house).

Peugeot also has a long tradition of refusing to facelift its cars. This goes back to the 404 and 504; the 504, for instance, was launched in the late-60s, rode more compliantly than any Mercedes-Benz of the day (sorry, Wimmer ), and was sold in Europe all the way through the early-80s. It remains, surely, one of the best cars of the 20th century, and certainly among the very best family sedans. Kenya was building it up until two or three years ago; in the African desert, nothing matches its combination of comfort and durability.


Peugeot 504

I'm aware that the media dumps on the 407, but when you drive it back to back with newer cars such as the Insignia and Mondeo, it's not clear why. Yes, the Mondeo has better steering feedback and a better gearbox; but the Insignia is stiffer than the Peugeot without being more interactive. Peugeots have a certain, lolloping gait. Although the 407 is not as interactive as a Mondeo, the steering is certainly more of a 2-way conversation than in an Insignia, it's quieter than the Mondeo, and the ride is at least as good as the Ford's (albeit lacking at lower speeds).

I think that the 407's proportions, rather than its competence, are the reason it gets a bad rap. That long nose and short tail make for an odd look and tight rear accommodation, although the Insignia is certainly no better in this regard. Thing is, too, no one expects this sort of drama from Peugeot. When, without reason, you fail to meet the expectations of those who have loved you in the past, woe is you.

And I've never seen any family sedan praised as highly as CAR praised the 504 (which it, again, ranked as better in many respects to the S-Class of the day), and the lovefest continued with the 604 (the world's first turbodiesel sedan - again, before Mercedes), the 505, and the 406 (which CAR, debatably - and certainly at the time - the world's most influential automotive publication, ranked above the BMW 3 series, despite the Pug's front-wheel drive).

I can only imagine CAR's reaction when Peugeot went from the classically elegant, Pininfarina-designed 406 to the in-house 407...


Peugeot 406 (1995-2003)


Peugeot 407 (2004-2010, 2008 facelift pictured)

Everyone loved the 406. As it turned out, it was the last in a long line of Pininfarina Peugeots, including the 605, 405, 505, 604, 504, and 404.

The 407 is much the more acquired taste.

And yet the 407 is more technically accomplished than the 406, being one of a very few sedans with double wishbones, front and rear.

That said, having driven the car and read the reviews, I think the weight is an issue. At current point in time, it's the price we pay to get the perceived quality, crash-test performance, and equipment that mainstream buyers want at a price they're willing to pay. I'll bet money on the fact that Peugeot has inclined the 407's roll axis more steeply than the 406's. As a result, the 407 grips better than the 406, but the combination of added weight and added incline to the axis make it much more violent when you finally run out of grip (and the stability control kicks in). Somewhat less fluid, in other words, because of the heft. I'm not sure how many drivers would notice, though.

Overall, I'm not convinced that the age of this design has anything to do with anything. The crash ratings are stellar, the 2-liter diesel is EURO 5 compliant (and the very same engine is used in Ford's Mondeo), and - if you can live with the lines and the corollary space compromises - it's a damn fluid drive, by the standards of the class (if not Peugeot's own).



The Mondeo is a huge car by comparison, with a wheelbase a full 125 millimeters longer than the Peugeot's. And you guys are right, it's worth a look.

The Ford Mondeo



New in 2007, the 4th-generation Mondeo shares much of its structure with the Ford Galaxy and S-Max, and it's closely related to the Volvo S80 and V70, too. The Mondeo steers accurately, feels agile, and is a decent companion on a favorite back road, albeit that, in seeking a greater level of refinement, Ford sacrificed some of the raw sportiness that permeated the old model. If the Mondeo has lost some of the immediacy of the previous generation, it nonetheless remains composed in the corners, with minimal body roll. Mondeo "wafts about like a premium sedan," according to Top Gear. AutoExpress calls Mondeo "the best family car money can buy," citing its "rewarding road manners, truly supple suspension, low running costs, huge interior, and versatile load bay."

Capacious, stylish, intelligently designed, and enjoyable to drive, the Mondeo is a big car, yet its tight lines give it a solid feel; which the heavy thud of the doors confirms. The Mondeo, writes 4Car, is "now a similar size to the old (full-size) Scorpio, and is thus a very roomy car indeed. There's plenty of rear legroom, space for adults to stretch out in the back, and loads of luggage space."



Penned under Martin Smith, Mondeo follows Ford's new "kinetic design" language. Out went the bold, geometric shapes of the the '90s, replaced by more sober lines. "It works, too," writes CAR magazine, adding, "in the metal, the Mondeo looks slick, sophisticated. There's wedge aplenty in the side profile, and the kicked-up rear window line helps provide a sporty stance."

Wider than before, Mondeo initially feels like a considerably larger car to drive, but its low center of gravity, excellent weight distribution and balance, and accurate steering make it easy to place on the road. It also has probably the best gearbox of this trio. Writes 4Car, "Mondeo's handling is always predictable, its stability and grip superb, and with all the controls laid out in an intuitive fashion it's an easy, rewarding drive which should satisfy most. It's one of the few large family cars you might actually take out for fun.

"Refinement is better than ever, with impressively low noise levels even on rough roads. The suspension soaks up ruts and bumps without a trace of pitch or wallow on fast corners: as a passenger, you'd be hard pressed to believe this is a mainstream Ford."



Indeed, one thing the Mondeo has always had over not only most cars in its class, but also base (European) BMW 3 series, has been its driving experience, (mainly) courtesy Richard Parry-Jones' trick rear suspension, which has provided a fair degree of passive rear steer. Neither the Opel Insignia nor the Peugeot 407 can match this level of interactivity.

Mondeo's new, wider platform has brought forth an increase in track, vis ? vis the old model, and a new control-blade rear suspension similar to the S-Max's; with (as in the Peugeot) four links controlling rear wheel movement. On the highway, it feels planted and agile, but just the right side of firm to remain comfortable. Writes 4Car, "the Mondeo is a fine driving machine, demonstrating that building a mass-market car doesn't have to mean compromises in driving dynamics.

"Highly accurate steering makes it easy to place on the road, its handling is always predictable, and stability and grip levels are superb. The suspension soaks up ruts and bumps without a trace of pitch or wallow on fast corners; as a passenger, you'd be hard pressed to believe that this is a mainstream Ford."

Writes CAR, "even on our top-spec, Titanium X trim's shallow 235/45 17-inch rubber, the ride is untroubled by bumps, ridges, and other corrugations that threaten to upset your extremities."

The Mondeo packs one or two features of note, including a patented fuel filler neck that makes it impossible to fill up at the wrong pump. The cluster's color display (Titanium X) is both informative and cool, and Ford can build powerful stereos with Play School usability like no other. Ergonomically, Mondeo is the best car here.

Although it can appear a little soulless on the showroom floor, Mondeo's got real flair on the road and is, overall, perhaps the most competent car in the class; with the most accurate steering, a suspension almost as supple as the Peugeot's (and better at lower speeds), and the most space. Writes 4Car, "the Mondeo has long proved to be tough and durable; for a car built in huge numbers down to a price, it's very well put together and finished to a good standard. Most of its components have already been tried and tested in other models such as the S-Max and Galaxy, as well as the closely related new Volvos, and it should prove dependable."



Roughly, the Opel is prettiest; the Peugeot, most stunning, and the Ford Mondeo, handsomely competent. Worthy of note is that the Ford takes up more road space than either of these rivals, making it most spacious by a considerable margin. The Peugeot 407 and Opel Insignia are within 30 millimeters of each other in all dimensions, although the 407 offers somewhat better rear headroom, and more legroom for the middle passenger in the rear seat.

The Mondeo is built in Genk, Belgium. The Peugeot 407 hails from Rennes, France, while the Opel Insignia calls R?sselsheim home.

[Pommes-T]

Yeah, Peugeot has surely built awesome cars. But since the last model change, they somehow seem to have given up building good and beautiful cars. The 206 was a fantastic little car at its time, the 207 can't really compete with Polo/Fiesta etc. The 308 isn't a good car (of course it is. Pretty much every car offered today is "good", but considering the competition it isn't as good as most of the rest), so isn't the 407 anymore. The only car I actually like is the 607 and that's the oldest car in their line up (and it also isn't competetive.

You might be right, that the Koreans are worse than he 407. I didn't even thought about them as competition, since they don't sell many here. But you are right. I don't know about the 159, could be pretty close. But aside from that it looks 10 times as good. The Seat Exeo hasn't won any comparison test I have read, but I have only read comparisons against the new Passat/Octavia/A4 so far, and these cars should be IMO on top of their classes (Octavia actually competes with the Jetta). I think the old A4 should be a great car even nowadays though. I wouldn't buy an Exeo anyways.
I don't think the Avensis is a bad car. It's not as good as the german competition and not as good as, i.e. the Laguna or the C5, but it's surely not a bad car. I wouldn't take one for free though (of course I would. I would sell it, buy an E30 BMW and keep the rest, but you get my point...  ) since it's ugly and boring.

What I don't understand is that you say the Passat wouldn't have any steering feedback. It's no BMW, but it's pretty damn good, as most VWs are. Have you driven any Renault yet (I guess you have). No offense to mzziaz, but these cars have no feedback at all. A Passat should be even way above average.

[CaMIRO]

Yep, wouldn't touch an Avensis. I drove the new one about 5 kilometers around the block during the press days at the local car show (dealers here actually sell cars at the shows, so media get to stop in and drive virtually anything they want if they'll write about it), and I cannot for the life of me remember anything about the experience.

One thing in Peugeot's favor - they're memorable (again, excluding the 307).

I like the 308 - and I really like the 3008, despite the awkward looks. Drive one. It almost rides like Peugeots of old, which is about the highest compliment I could pay any family car. The 308 RCZ will hopefully be my next car, although I'll probably try the Megane Coupe, too.


Peugeot RCZ

I will say that I'm disappointed with Renault of late; and that hurts, because I have a real soft spot for the brand. Back when Damon Hill was racing, I cheered Williams-Renault F1 on, and dreamt of Renaultsport Spiders, Clios Williams, and the mid-engined Clio V6 - no one but the French could ever make anything like that; as Jeremy Clarkson once said, "start with a practical, sensible family hatchback, then fill it full of engine... if you have some shopping, here's what I suggest you do: throw it away.

"Imagine watching the entire French air force crash into a fireworks factory. That's how much of a laugh this car is."




Renault Clio V6


Renaultsport Spider

Unfortunately, I was in the 'States, and Renault had left us for dead some 10 years beforehand.


1981 Renault 18i

Some here will know the tale of my 18i, a car I picked up from a collector in Indiana. It saw fairly light duty; about 10 miles or so, every few nights, when my girlfriend (who otherwise hated the car and couldn't understand the appeal of a 1981 pea green French sedan) couldn't sleep. A run down the highway in those gorgeously decadent fauteuils (best of anything I've ever driven, I think) would do the trick.

Problem is, they don't ride like that anymore. I've driven Laguna III, and the new Laguna Coupe. Both are too stiff; indeed, the Laguna III reminded me of a Nissan (whose cars never ride properly) even before I'd confirmed that they were using Altima underpinnings. Mind you, the Laguna III was on 18s, and that probably didn't help. Nonetheless, something like the Laguna Coupe should be a grand tourer, not a car that wobbles where it should waft. A real shame.


Renault Laguna Coupe

And although I like the Laguna Coupe, today's Renaults don't look particularly different (excluding the Megane Coupe).


Renault Megane Coupe

The 5-door Megane hatchback and 5-dr Laguna are too bland to be true Renaults. The Renault 18 was bland, too (they launched it under the scintillating theme, Meeting International Requirements), but at least Americans thought it weird. The Renault 21 (which replaced R18) and Safrane were boring (much though I'd love a Safrane Biturbo) -

- and then came Patrick le Quement, who changed it all with the Twingo, Megane Scenic, Espace, Avantime, Vel Satis, and Megane II. Renault became weird in a functional sense, again - and that's the sweet spot for the brand.

Think Renault 16, Renault 4.


Renault 16


Renault 4 (Scion and Honda are clearly big fans   )

There are pragmatic reasons for why these two look so damn odd; they're, simply, more practical that way.

Citroen is either willfully weird (think Ami), or aerodynamically obsessed.

Peugeot? They're supposed to do the skillfully tapered, elegant thing; and the new in-house style just doesn't fit that bill. Doesn't stop me from thoroughly enjoying myself every time I get behind the wheel of a good Peugeot.

And the 407 is still a great drive. Hell, I grin just thinking of how Joe Camry might react to something so artfully compliant (as opposed to perpetually mediocre). Take CAR's word for it, if not mine.

[CaMIRO]

Speaking of Joe Camry - a funny story about that...

My old college roommate stopped by to look at the Renault once, and drove it... then drove it some more. He liked it so much that, when he wanted a winter car (he was driving a Mustang at the time), he asked me to find him something similar.

Well, I couldn't let a rare 18i go through a Michigan winter - so we picked up an Eagle Premier (American Renault 25) for about $1,000. Fully galvanized body, so no rust. Damn good shape. Even had a fresh set of tires. Changed the plugs and fluids, and he was good to go.

At about the same time, his father bought a brand new Toyota Camry.

A few months later (during the Spring, while the Premier was in the garage), someone borrowed the Camry, so his father needed a car for the day.

He swung by and picked up the Premier.

That night, my old roommate called me up to report that his father had brought the Premier back, cursing Toyota up and down. He couldn't believe that a $1,500, 1992 orphan car steered better, gripped better, and on the whole handed more competently than his new (2002, I think...?) Camry.

He was still grumbling about it when I saw him some time later.  

By the time the Premier debuted, in 1987, Renault had almost a quarter-century of experience with front-wheel-drive, midsize cars, to draw on. Think Renault 16; today remembered as a legendary combination of comfort and practicality.

Premier was a great car hampered by an incompetent dealer network, poor marketing, that somewhat rough PRV V6, and political machinations between Chrysler, AMC, and Renault (who never understood America, and probably never will). The styling was bland, too, but that hardly hurt its chances in the U.S.


That story still brings a smile to my face. Sure, the guy (my friend's father) was a retired automotive engineer, but he didn't do suspensions, nor was he a particularly enthusiastic driver.

Yet he could tell the difference.  

As for my college roommate - a few years later, he moved, bought an X5, and sold both his Mustang and the Premier (nowhere to put them). He loves the X5 - but he still talks about how great the Premier was to drive.

[omicron]

In every possible way, an Accord, Mazda 6 or Passat are better options - at least with Australian pricing as it is.

[mzziaz]

No offense to mzziaz, but these cars have no feedback at all.

No offence taken. I think the car is underrated, but I don't think it is Gods gift to mankind either. And I bought it simply because I got a screaming deal (1/3 of the new car prize after 3 1/2 years/60.000km).

I find the steering feel, and the general handling of the car, to be pretty dependent on rim size. I have the "sportiest" dynamique version that comes with 17'' tires as opposed to 16'' which is default size for the other versions. That extra inch have a big impact on the car, and larger is not better, imo. The bigger wheels give better steering feel, but the sacrifice in ride quality is far too much, imo (i have both 16 and 17'' rims for the car).

As for Renault in general; i agree with Camiro that they have not been heading in the right direction the last years. The Laguna III is rather underwhelming, the Megane is better, but still nothing special compared to the competition. The same actually goes for the Clio, the Scenic and the Espace, imo.

I used to think that Renault had a little of this avantgarde feel to them, and I mean this in the best possible way. After the Laguna II (which I think looks very good), they went overboard with Avantime, Vel Satis and the previous gen Megane.

Now, the pendulum seems to have swung the opposite way, and the company is busy churning out blandmobiles

[omicron]

The last Renault to impress across the whole model range was the Clio II - even the base models had the spirit of the Sport versions, and they were excellent value. These days, other manufacturers have managed to be comfortable, make it around the corner and keep all the doors attached, so I don't see why this task has been pooh-poohed by the French like imported white zinfandel - especially when, as that Holden Camira chap points out, both Renault and Citroen have produced some of the most brilliantly well-rounded and capable cars in the past.

[CaMIRO]

Now, the pendulum seems to have swung the opposite way, and the company is busy churning out blandmobiles

That's exactly it. Renault was damned interesting and regularly innovative from the mid '60s up until about 1977, then it went through a bland period (with some commercial success, admittedly) up until the 1992 Twingo. There followed about 15 years of Megane Scenic, Renaultsport Spider, Clio V6, Espace, Avantime, Vel Satis, and Megane II.

And then... Laguna III, Megane III, yawn.

So we're due some interesting Renaults in 2022...?

[omicron]

And while we're on the subject - give me one of the locally-assembled twin-carb 16 TXs any day.

[Colin]

Lots to agree with in the extensive threads above.

Peugeots until the 206 came along were generally nice to look at (merci, M, Pininfarina) and nice to drive, and comfortable to ride in. Everything that has been written in praise of the 504 is justified. The 604 was a very dignified executive saloon indeed. The 405 shook up the family car market in the way that the FWD Cavalier/Ascona did 6 years earlier, with its fabulous lines and excellent handling (shame about the carburettor flat spot problems!). The 205 was a pure legend................. and then the 206 hinted that all was not going to go along similar lines. The 307 was an aberration, for sure. I don't doubt the 308 is a "better" car, but I simply canno stomach the looks, which are truly awkward no matter where you look.

Renault? Yes, they seem to have gone to Blandsville lately. Even in France the new Megane 5dr is all but invisible (I suspect that they have sold worryingly few), and the Laguna 3 has bombed in the market. The R16 and the R20/30 were wonderful cars in their day, but real rarities now as they all rusted away. Sadly.

So, we're all in agreement about that then.

I've not driven the latest Avensis, but I drove the last model, and it was indeed pure white goods. The new one is hideous in comparison, but with a better quality interior. I would take a lot of persuading to adopt one.

Everyone seems to have neglected the Mazda 6 in these discussions............... if you want a diesel, the 2.2D in that car is rather better than the Ford/PSA motor, which is no better than acceptable. I like the 6, though I confess I've yet to drive the current car.

The Mondeo is a good car, spoiled by the naff fake silver trim inside, and the engines are not its strongest suit. It's huge now. Maybe even too big? The old model was a real class act, though, and was my favourite of the time.

I'm not sold on the Passat, but that's probably because the ones I've driven all had old unrefined horrid TDi engines, with the first BlueMotion based on the 1.9 engine the worst by some margin. That engine should have been strangled at birth, but the latest 2.0 TDi 138bhp car in the Golf was very impressive and would make the car far more appealing.

The Accord is another car that made a series of retrogade steps when the latest model came in. The old one, esp as a diesel, was a great car, but the new one is just so fussy to look at, and the driving experience seems to have suffered a bit.

Like Wimmer, I've got a soft spot for the C5, though I've also yet to get my hands on one.

And then there's the 159............. as an avowed Alfisti, this would be my pick, especially with the latest JTDm engine. It looks far better than anything else in the class, and although it may not offer the ultimate in handling precision, it is good enough for me, on the road. It feels special, and that's because it is special. There aren't millions of them on the roads, like the 3, C and A4, and that kind of matters, too.     

[Raza]

I think the 407's rear end is much better looking than the Insignia's.

I wouldn't even say the 407's interior looks 'worse', just that it looks older. Because it is.

Lookwise the only problem the 407 has is the front end, and it really wouldn't take much to fix that.

You've already shown an immunity to hideous front ends.


Anyway, I'll take the Pug in this case as well.  The Insignia never connected with me. 

Do they make a 407 coupe?

[2o6]

The 407 looks bad in profile.

[93JC]

You've already shown an immunity to hideous front ends.

If by hideous you mean AWESOME!

[CaMIRO]

Colin, I forgot to mention - your 407 SW test was a good read, thanks. BTW, the 308 looks somewhat less ungainly with the rear diffuser ("F?line" models, I believe).

I quite like the Ford/ PSA 2-liter diesel. It's down on power versus their 170-horsepower 2.2-liter, but it's refined and it moves well enough; and, remember, yearly registration costs for anything over 2 liters jump exponentially (in Eastern Europe, at least).

Back to my car shopping - my brother is the one buying, but because he has fairly little interest in cars, he's asked me to help him pick. He's not enamored with the looks of the Mazda6; but he loves the 407's lines. He's had his eye on it since it came out. Go figure. He also prefers the 407's more rounded look, inside, to the Mondeo; and say what we will about the materials, he's right in pointing out that there's more soft plastic in the Peugeot than in the Mondeo. You know; the rubbery kind, that people like to prod and push...

He's concluded, and I'd agree, that the Mondeo needs to be Titanium S (or better) spec to approach a mid-level 407 for sophistication. Add about 3,000 euros to the Peugeot's price - for a car (the Mondeo) with the very same 2-liter diesel engine. Base Mondeos drive well, sure, but they also feel inexplicably crude from behind the wheel. Shades of rental Ford Five Hundred...

It helps, too, that Peugeot's dealer network is much better established here than Mazda's or Opel's - and somewhat better established than Ford's.

After yet another test drive earlier this afternoon, I'm even further inclined toward the Peugeot (the dealership is situated next to one of the Balkans' many hilly stretches of tight curves, and my contact there has a strong stomach...)

As it turns out, due to my brother's schedule, I'm going to wind up driving this thing on a 16-hour marathon trip next month through the mountains of Bosnia (you guys want some challenging roads? Enormous fun...   ) I relish the thought. I've driven some fantastic cars, but there's something about Peugeots that really appeals to me - and, frankly, the 407 is not that different from the 406, to drive. Yes, it's heavier; but there's that same phenomenal grip from the front end, and a sense of fluidity that only (good) French cars ever seem to provide. Sure, the Mondeo is close, and it actually rides better at low speeds, but it somehow feels less wieldy. Hell, it's considerably larger.

I'd like a little more throttle steerability - ? la Mondeo, or 406 -  but that's me.

The Opel is still a wild card. We'll see.

I still don't understand why, as CAR puts it, "this car (the 407) doesn't get enough credit for how it goes." Sure, it's a little cramped in the rear - but the Insignia is worse. And, as CAR itself has said, the Peugeot drives really, really well.

So... here's some credit for it.
I had a blast today.
In a diesel family sedan.

Vive la France.  

[CaMIRO]

The Accord is another car that made a series of retrogade steps when the latest model came in. The old one, esp as a diesel, was a great car, but the new one is just so fussy to look at, and the driving experience seems to have suffered a bit.

Like Wimmer, I've got a soft spot for the C5, though I've also yet to get my hands on one.

And then there's the 159............. as an avowed Alfisti, this would be my pick, especially with the latest JTDm engine. It looks far better than anything else in the class, and although it may not offer the ultimate in handling precision, it is good enough for me, on the road. It feels special, and that's because it is special. There aren't millions of them on the roads, like the 3, C and A4, and that kind of matters, too.

I had to quote this because I agree with every part of it (save for, perhaps, that the 159 looks quite so much better than anything else - the 156, on the other hand...)

That said, the 159 is too stiff for what he needs; he doesn't like the look of the C5 (as a fan of older Citroens, I'm somewhat in agreement), and the Accord does nothing for him (much though it drives well).

[Pommes-T]

No offence taken. I think the car is underrated, but I don't think it is Gods gift to mankind either. And I bought it simply because I got a screaming deal (1/3 of the new car prize after 3 1/2 years/60.000km).

I find the steering feel, and the general handling of the car, to be pretty dependent on rim size. I have the "sportiest" dynamique version that comes with 17'' tires as opposed to 16'' which is default size for the other versions. That extra inch have a big impact on the car, and larger is not better, imo. The bigger wheels give better steering feel, but the sacrifice in ride quality is far too much, imo (i have both 16 and 17'' rims for the car).

As for Renault in general; i agree with Camiro that they have not been heading in the right direction the last years. The Laguna III is rather underwhelming, the Megane is better, but still nothing special compared to the competition. The same actually goes for the Clio, the Scenic and the Espace, imo.

I used to think that Renault had a little of this avantgarde feel to them, and I mean this in the best possible way. After the Laguna II (which I think looks very good), they went overboard with Avantime, Vel Satis and the previous gen Megane.

Now, the pendulum seems to have swung the opposite way, and the company is busy churning out blandmobiles

I totally agree with that.

I also like the styling of your laguna. One of our neighbours drives an Avantime and he's totally nuts about it. He even meets with other Avantime drivers and does such things. To each his own.

[CaMIRO]

Read this recently, found it interesting, and it's rather relevant to this thread...

"Once upon a time, in France, there were three brothers, three very different characters, but whose futures were inextricably linked..."
- http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Motoring-issues/French-Revolution-a-tragic-tale-of-three-car-brands/

[mzziaz]

Colin, I forgot to mention - your 407 SW test was a good read, thanks. BTW, the 308 looks somewhat less ungainly with the rear diffuser ("F?line" models, I believe).

I quite like the Ford/ PSA 2-liter diesel. It's down on power versus their 170-horsepower 2.2-liter, but it's refined and it moves well enough; and, remember, yearly registration costs for anything over 2 liters jump exponentially (in Eastern Europe, at least).

Back to my car shopping - my brother is the one buying, but because he has fairly little interest in cars, he's asked me to help him pick. He's not enamored with the looks of the Mazda6; but he loves the 407's lines. He's had his eye on it since it came out. Go figure. He also prefers the 407's more rounded look, inside, to the Mondeo; and say what we will about the materials, he's right in pointing out that there's more soft plastic in the Peugeot than in the Mondeo. You know; the rubbery kind, that people like to prod and push...

He's concluded, and I'd agree, that the Mondeo needs to be Titanium S (or better) spec to approach a mid-level 407 for sophistication. Add about 3,000 euros to the Peugeot's price - for a car (the Mondeo) with the very same 2-liter diesel engine. Base Mondeos drive well, sure, but they also feel inexplicably crude from behind the wheel. Shades of rental Ford Five Hundred...

It helps, too, that Peugeot's dealer network is much better established here than Mazda's or Opel's - and somewhat better established than Ford's.

After yet another test drive earlier this afternoon, I'm even further inclined toward the Peugeot (the dealership is situated next to one of the Balkans' many hilly stretches of tight curves, and my contact there has a strong stomach...)

As it turns out, due to my brother's schedule, I'm going to wind up driving this thing on a 16-hour marathon trip next month through the mountains of Bosnia (you guys want some challenging roads? Enormous fun...   ) I relish the thought. I've driven some fantastic cars, but there's something about Peugeots that really appeals to me - and, frankly, the 407 is not that different from the 406, to drive. Yes, it's heavier; but there's that same phenomenal grip from the front end, and a sense of fluidity that only (good) French cars ever seem to provide. Sure, the Mondeo is close, and it actually rides better at low speeds, but it somehow feels less wieldy. Hell, it's considerably larger.

I'd like a little more throttle steerability - ? la Mondeo, or 406 -  but that's me.

The Opel is still a wild card. We'll see.

I still don't understand why, as CAR puts it, "this car (the 407) doesn't get enough credit for how it goes." Sure, it's a little cramped in the rear - but the Insignia is worse. And, as CAR itself has said, the Peugeot drives really, really well.

So... here's some credit for it.
I had a blast today.
In a diesel family sedan.

Vive la France.  

It would be pretty stupid to buy a new 407 unless you get a screaming deal. I bet one year old cars can be had for 2/3 of the new car list prize.

Are you Serb, btw?

[CaMIRO]

Went to take another look at the Opel Insignia this afternoon. I'd driven the car, briefly, but hadn't really prodded around in it. Surprisingly enough, I can sit behind myself slightly more comfortably than in the Peugeot; more knee room, but headroom is an issue. It's academic, though; my brother, who's a little taller, can't sit comfortably in the back of the Insignia at all (that roofline...)

The front seats in the Insignia are rather less comfortable than those of the Peugeot (cloth -v- cloth).

The choice is now between an Insignia 1.8 gasoline, Edition spec, and a Peugeot 2.0 HDI diesel, mid-level (they call the package "Premium" here, but Peugeot has different trim names for different markets).

Pricing is virtually identical.
Both engines are EURO 5.
Both have 6-speed manual transmissions.
Both have 140 horsepower (diesel is torquier, obviously, and more flexible in-gear, although standard performance measurements reveal similar abilities).

BTW - used is not an option. He wants a new car, 0 on the odo; and he plans to keep it for a while, so resale is not an issue.

[mzziaz]

Why not a diesel Insignia?

[CaMIRO]

Why not a diesel Insignia?

The 130-horsepower 2-liter diesel engine adds about 3,500 euros to the price (based on what's on the lot), yet it has been largely panned as not sufficient to move the car. It's also said to be raucous; and the noise, apparently, ain't nice.

The examples available with a 160-horsepower 2-liter diesel cost more than he wants to spend.

Remember, we're picking from what's on the lots here. Ordering a specific car could take a while, and he needs something fairly quickly.

Given that the diesel is Fiat's JTD, I'm rather surprised that the refinement of the 130-horsepower model has been criticized; but I'll find out for myself on Friday (another round of test drives). I quite liked Fiat's 2.4-liter JTD in the Alfa 166, but I guess that's a whole 'nother ball game.

[Colin]

Now I understand more of the parameters, and that you're now helping him to choose between an HDi 407 or a petrol 1.8 Insignia, as a keeper, I think I'd go Peugeot. Everything you've said, Miro, suggests that's the way you are feeling, too.

[CaMIRO]

My brother is rather taken with the 407; and the mid-level Insignia's interior does not match its premium feel. I, too, was surprised; but there's no doubt that the 407's seats, in particular, are a class above. Ah, the things the magazines don't bother to talk about...

Unfortunately, although Peugeot in Eastern Europe advertises the 407 2.0-liter HDI as EURO V, they're exporting EURO IV models here; you know, the kind you can no longer buy in France.

It's a deal breaker.

Apart from the addition of a particulate filter, the newer engine has been reprogrammed to produce 140 horsepower (rather than 136); and, more to the point, it runs more smoothly.

The next step is to figure out whether a EURO V 407 2.0 HDI can be ordered, and how long that would take.

I must add - I'm rather disappointed. I've long held Peugeot in high regard, and after my work with Zastava, that feeling only grew stronger. Peugeot stepped in to provide the factory in Kragujevac with (optional) EURO III and EURO IV engines, giving Zastava's cars a new lease on life and enabling thousands of people who wanted a new car, on a very tight budget, to afford one.

Even more impressive is that Peugeot did business with Zastava under some of the most lax conditions I've ever seen in this industry: pay us when you sell the cars. An American automaker I did some work for a few years ago would probably be in rather better shape if its suppliers had agreed to such conditions. The handful of Zastavas with Peugeot engines, sold between 2002 and 2008, hardly contributed to Peugeot's bottom line; although Zastava reprogrammed Peugeot's 1.1-liter and 1.6-liter gasoline engines, and the 1.4-liter HDI, for its own purposes, and the French seemed fairly interested in the results.

As an enthusiast, I consider cars as more than simply transport; and stories like that reaffirm my enthusiasm. It's a double-edged sword, though, in that one is easily disappointed when things go the other way.

Ah, well.

[nickdrinkwater]

The 407 will depreciate more than the Opel.  Just a thought.

[CaMIRO]

The 407 will depreciate more than the Opel.  Just a thought.

Dramatically, too, once the 508 debuts. Thing is, he plans to keep the car for a while.

[mzziaz]

Good thing!

Now you can get your brother a better car 

Too bad he doesn't like the C5, which would have been my choice in the segment. Well, then. Lets look at the alternatives:
* Ford Mondeo: Looks good, drives well and have lots of space. Interior is a bit cheap, engines are not best in class. A very good contender, imo.
* Renault Laguna III: Doesn't look good, average handling and space, I presume. OK interior, decent engines, but unpopular.  I wouldn't choose it.
* VW Passat: Looks OK, average handling, OK space. Nice interior, good engines, but getting a bit old. Optional 4wd is a plus. I would consider it for the right price with the common rail 2.0.
* Toyta Avensis: Looks, driveability and interior are all bland. Reliable and good reale value. Good engines. I good choice for people who don't care about cars
* Honda Accord: Maybe the most interesting Japanese car in the segment. OK looks, supposedly very decent handling and good engines. Interior is cheap though. Has much of the Toyota reliability and resale values. Can you import from Germany? Than get that 2,4 Executive which. Pommes-T mentioned. That was a steal.
* Volvo S60. Classy, imo, but I guess just a more expensive Mondeo.
* Mazda 6. OK car, but again like a Mondeo, but smaller and not so good looking
* SAAB 9-5: Too old.
* MB E-class: Too pricey for this segment
* BMW 5-series: Ditto
* Skoda Superb. Like a Passat, only newer, larger and cheaper. In Norway they are still sold with the old rattly diesels. Wait for the common rail.

In addition to the C5, 407, and Insignia, that about covers it, doesn't it?

[Pommes-T]

Good thing!

Now you can get your brother a better car  Just what I was thinking! 

Too bad he doesn't like the C5, which would have been my choice in the segment. Well, then. Lets look at the alternatives:
* Ford Mondeo: Looks good, drives well and have lots of space. Interior is a bit cheap, engines are not best in class. A very good contender, imo. Yep. I especially like it with such a sportive exterior option. Don't know what it's called exactly, though.
* Renault Laguna III: Doesn't look good, average handling and space, I presume. OK interior, decent engines, but unpopular.  I wouldn't choose it. I wouldn't either.
* VW Passat: Looks OK, average handling, OK space. Nice interior, good engines, but getting a bit old. Optional 4wd is a plus. I would consider it for the right price with the common rail 2.0. Although I am a VW troll, I must say that I have never liked the currrent Passat a lot. It definitely needs a different front. But VW currently sells them with high rebates, which makes them interesting IMO.

* Toyta Avensis: Looks, driveability and interior are all bland. Reliable and good reale value. Good engines. I good choice for people who don't care about cars
* Honda Accord: Maybe the most interesting Japanese car in the segment. OK looks, supposedly very decent handling and good engines. Interior is cheap though. Has much of the Toyota reliability and resale values. Can you import from Germany? Than get that 2,4 Executive which. Pommes-T mentioned. That was a steal. Yeah, it is. But I would also check if I couldn't get it even cheaper in other countries. In general in germany cars are most expensive in europe. (mzziaz will know more about this. But in scandinavia there are high taxes on cars and so the carmakers offer them cheaper there, because every ? the car costs less will have a higher effect on sales than it would have i.e. in germany. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
* Volvo S60. Classy, imo, but I guess just a more expensive Mondeo. Also wouldn't be my choice. Currently Volvo sells V70s with VERY high rebates. See link. http://www.google.de/url?url=http://www.kruell.com/uploads/media/volvo-v70-angebot-oktober-2009.pdf&rct=j&ei=3VIKS5vjAsqKsAa368i2Cg&sa=X&oi=nshc&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CBEQzgQoAQ&q=kr%C3%BCll+v70+angebot&usg=AFQjCNE03nrksb5-uEvzl6DPiN4uMDVZZw
* Mazda 6. OK car, but again like a Mondeo, but smaller and not so good looking Haven't driven one, but I have heard the front seats suck big time. I would take a look at it anyways.
* SAAB 9-5: Too old. Your brother doesn't want a used car. He could get great deals here. As a new car it's not interesting. Plus I have heard of engine problems. My uncle had a 3.0 Diesel with tuning and was very happy with it though.
* MB E-class: Too pricey for this segment Yep.
* BMW 5-series: Ditto Yep.
* Skoda Superb. Like a Passat, only newer, larger and cheaper. In Norway they are still sold with the old rattly diesels. Wait for the common rail. Don't know about your engine choices, but I think that would be my choice (as a Combi, though). Is your brother sure he wants a diesel? The TSI engines are fantastic and don't need too much gas either. I would testdrive it!

In addition to the C5, 407, and Insignia, that about covers it, doesn't it?

[Colin]

I generally agree with the analysis above.

The S60 ceased production earlier in the year, so if there are any left, they should be deeply discounted.

Other cars to consider:

Seat Exeo - the UK press decided that this is a pretty good option, based on the B7 model Audi A4 (which they did not generally rate).
Alfa 159 - my favourite, but then I am biased towards the products of il Cuore Sportivo!

I'd go have a look at those 2, and follow it up with a visit to the Mazda and Citroen dealers, and may be look at the Passat (though the ones I driven underwhelmed me with their rough old diesel motors, but these have been consigned to the history books now).   

[mzziaz]

Bah, I miss caMIRO...and Pommes-T