New car ponderings.

[Raza]

I know you said no used cars, but 99 911s are dropping below 20 grand...

[Xer0]

Not planning on checking out any of the hot hatches(MS3/GTI)?

[Raza]

Not planning on checking out any of the hot hatches(MS3/GTI)?

Based on his list, I'd say he's dead set on RWD.

[MX793]

I know you said no used cars, but 99 911s are dropping below 20 grand...

As I've said before, I'm looking for something that could ideally replace my car entirely, or at the very least serve as a 3 season replacement (like, I park the Mazda someplace when the snow melts and don't dig it out again until the snow starts falling again).  I want something I don't need to worry about paying for if something breaks.  If my current car was nearly new and had a warranty and I didn't have to worry about paying to fix it if something broke, I'd be more apt to spring for an older "toy" type of car as an occasional driver.  That's not my situation right now.  New car becomes the primary, old car, if I even keep it, serves as winter rat.

Besides that, there's not exactly a lot of Porsches to choose from around here.  Autotrader shows 3 within 100 miles that are under $30K, one of them a Cayenne, and that's stretching my search back to include as old as '95.  Used car selection in general sucks, actually.

[MX793]

Not planning on checking out any of the hot hatches(MS3/GTI)?

Not interested in FWD.  Test drove an MS3 just for kicks.  It's certainly a hoot, at least when the road's dry.  Torque steer was kept in check in a straight line, but I hammered it while rounding an on-ramp and felt the wheel fighting my inputs.  Not something I like.  And I think the understeer would be truly terrible in slick conditions.

[Onslaught]

For what it is I really don't think the RX-8's trunk is all that bad. I still don't like the idea of not having a spare but you can fit one in. But that makes the trunk even smaller.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Maybe the visibility in the Camaro is something you could get used to. Where is it so bad; in the front, sides, back? It's not like it matters what's behind you in a car like that.

[SVT666]

Maybe the visibility in the Camaro is something you could get used to. Where is it so bad; in the front, sides, back? It's not like it matters what's behind you in a car like that.

Front.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Front.

It's not like it matters what's in front of you in a car like that.

[MX793]

Maybe the visibility in the Camaro is something you could get used to. Where is it so bad; in the front, sides, back? It's not like it matters what's behind you in a car like that.

Visibility all around is piss poor.  I can deal with limited rear or rear quarter visibility, that comes with pretty much any coupe.  But you can't see well out of the front and sides either.  The side sills are very high and the sill rises as you approach the side mirrors.  That combined with the slope of the A pillar as you approach the mirror means you can't see around the mirror and the mirror blocks front quarter visibility almost entirely.  The cowl is high and the roof is low, which combines for a forward opening barely more than a foot.  Your downward view angle out the front, by my estimates, is only about 11 degrees.  If someone put a milk crate 25 feet in front of the car and you weren't looking when they did it, you wouldn't be able to see it from the driver's seat.  There was a Malibu parked facing the Camaro I sat in, about 15 feet away, and I could barely see below the bowtie on the grille.  And with how chopped the roof is, you'd have a heck of a time seeing traffic lights unless you hung back.  Many of the lights around here are wired to a switch and you have to pull right up to the light to be on the switch, so that would also be problematic.  And despite this car being as tall as a Genesis coupe and taller than the RX-8, I hit my head on the top of the door frame while getting in and out and have to really duck my head down to get in and out of the car (something I didn't have to do with the others).  And I'm only average height.

[MX793]

For what it is I really don't think the RX-8's trunk is all that bad. I still don't like the idea of not having a spare but you can fit one in. But that makes the trunk even smaller.

It's big enough to haul a week's worth of groceries (for me) or typical items I'd buy, but it's not as versatile as I'd like.  In the past 2 months, I've had to carry items on at least 3 occasions that required I fold the rear seats on my car to get them to fit, and even more times just recently I've had to carry items that just barely fit in my trunk (which I doubt would fit in the RX's).  My trunk is 40% bigger than the RX's before folding the seats.  If the RX had folding seats, it wouldn't be an issue.  My 240SX had a trunk that was about the same size, but that had folding seats for those times when I needed to carry something a little larger.  All the RX has is a tiny pass-through between the seats.

[S204STi]

Roof rack?  I carry longer crap like lumber and pipes with mine.  I got an easily removable design as well so it's actually almost never on the car, I can install it within minutes if I need to carry a longer load.

[MX793]

Roof rack?  I carry longer crap like lumber and pipes with mine.  I got an easily removable design as well so it's actually almost never on the car, I can install it within minutes if I need to carry a longer load.

Some of the stuff I've carried recently (like my TV) isn't stuff I'd want to be strapping to the roof.

[S204STi]

Some of the stuff I've carried recently (like my TV) isn't stuff I'd want to be strapping to the roof.

lol, ok good point.

[Onslaught]

It's big enough to haul a week's worth of groceries (for me) or typical items I'd buy, but it's not as versatile as I'd like.  In the past 2 months, I've had to carry items on at least 3 occasions that required I fold the rear seats on my car to get them to fit, and even more times just recently I've had to carry items that just barely fit in my trunk (which I doubt would fit in the RX's).  My trunk is 40% bigger than the RX's before folding the seats.  If the RX had folding seats, it wouldn't be an issue.  My 240SX had a trunk that was about the same size, but that had folding seats for those times when I needed to carry something a little larger.  All the RX has is a tiny pass-through between the seats.

With that drive shaft hump going down it I'd doubt folding seats would do much good. Think they also have a good amount of bracing in that area also so that's why they don't fold. I'm going to see if my golf bag will fit before I buy one.

[Vinsanity]

Some of the stuff I've carried recently (like my TV) isn't stuff I'd want to be strapping to the roof.

[GoCougs]

2010 Subaru Legacy GT Premium base MSRP is $28k, meaning a haggler should be able to get it down to $26k less incentives, so probably under $25k + TTL. It's a better (quicker) all around performer than any of the cars mentioned so far save for maybe tied the WRX, has plenty of space, has all-season AWD, and is super mod friendly. If you need to carry lots of stuff you can get roof and hitch racks.

Though you said don't mention it, looking at one-year-old used cars with 10k miles or less will net you a significant discount (15-20%+) allowing you to move up out of the econo class with virtually zero detriment save for taking a bit of time to find what you want (which you have lots of it seems given how much time you've spent on this).

[S204STi]

Yep, plus there is normally a factory warranty remaining, and/or you can extend warranty coverage with an extended warranty.  Buyer beware with those though.  The OEM extended warranty is really the only one I'd recommend.

[Onslaught]

Well I went and sat in the R3 today and loved it. I like everything with the exception of that smile face with the black plastic mustache for a grille. But I can live with that.
Love the recaro seats and fit right in them. My girlfriend said that her hips kind of hugged them a little too much for a long drive. I told her she could lose weight. For some
reason she got mad at me.

My new boss has a Mazda dealership a few towns down from Charlotte. If I can talk them into bringing a 09 from another dealer in so I can get it for cost and 5K off then
I'm pulling the trigger. If not then I'll get a 2010 when they go on sale at the end of next year.

Oh, not trying to steal your post. It's just we're both looking at the same car right now so I figured it would be a good place to talk about them.

[MX793]

2010 Subaru Legacy GT Premium base MSRP is $28k, meaning a haggler should be able to get it down to $26k less incentives, so probably under $25k + TTL. It's a better (quicker) all around performer than any of the cars mentioned so far save for maybe tied the WRX, has plenty of space, has all-season AWD, and is super mod friendly. If you need to carry lots of stuff you can get roof and hitch racks.

Though you said don't mention it, looking at one-year-old used cars with 10k miles or less will net you a significant discount (15-20%+) allowing you to move up out of the econo class with virtually zero detriment save for taking a bit of time to find what you want (which you have lots of it seems given how much time you've spent on this).

I'm not looking for a family car, I'm looking for something fun.  What I'd like is a decent GT car.  Something that will get the blood pumping.  Something that encourages me to throw it into corners with deeply bolstered seats to hold me in place.  Something with a savory exhaust note that encourages you to run the engine right to its redline.  It's not just about the straight line performance, it's about the whole experience.  Honestly, while I say the RX isn't that fast, truth is it's fast enough in a straight line to satisfy me.  It's not the performance that bother's me.  It's the fact that it guzzles fuel like a half ton truck while not performing any better that bothers me more.  If I'm going to be drinking fuel like a V8, I expect the performance of a V8.  If it got fuel mileage more inline with a V6 Camaro or 2.0T Genesis, I wouldn't even make mention of it.

The WRX was plenty fast, but didn't tug at my heart strings.  It felt very much like an ordinary car with a lot of thrust under the hood when you put your foot down.  A great sleeper for someone who wants it, but that's not what I'm looking for.  I find it unlikely that the Legacy, a car even more mainstream than the WRX, will do much for me either.  It's not that I necessarily haul a ton of stuff, but I'd hate to have to go find somebody to lend me their car every time I want to pick up a set of "build-it-yourself" bookshelves or a pushbroom or snow shovel.

[nickdrinkwater]

370Z outside budget?

[MX793]

370Z outside budget?

Yes, unfortunately.

[565]

Personally I'd feel bad about buying a new Rx8 because they depreciate so fast.  I can't recall another car in the segment (not monster SUV) that's depreciating faster.

When I was looking at used cars for about 10-15k, I found a bunch of them 2005+, around 30K miles or less, 6 speed, and going for 12 grand or less, all were kept in mint condition inside and out.

Having a warranty is indeed peace of mind, but all of those cars had the 8 year 100k engine warranty on them still (still about 4 years and 70K left on it), and the engine is what I'm worried about.  I can't imagine paying another 12 grand on top for pretty much the same car with 40% more warranty.  Really a bit more warranty isn't worth 12 grand.  I bought an extended warranty for my Z06 for about 1-2k, and I still think I was ripped off.

[Onslaught]

Personally I'd feel bad about buying a new Rx8 because they depreciate so fast.  I can't recall another car in the segment (not monster SUV) that's depreciating faster.

When I was looking at used cars for about 10-15k, I found a bunch of them 2005+, around 30K miles or less, 6 speed, and going for 12 grand or less, all were kept in mint condition inside and out.

Having a warranty is indeed peace of mind, but all of those cars had the 8 year 100k engine warranty on them still (still about 4 years and 70K left on it), and the engine is what I'm worried about.  I can't imagine paying another 12 grand on top for pretty much the same car with 40% more warranty.  Really a bit more warranty isn't worth 12 grand.  I bought an extended warranty for my Z06 for about 1-2k, and I still think I was ripped off.

They do depreciate fast. But I don't trust the average person to break in or maintain a normal car let alone a rotary powered one. And I keep cars for over 10 years so I really don't care about depreciation.

[565]

They do depreciate fast. But I don't trust the average person to break in or maintain a normal car let alone a rotary powered one. And I keep cars for over 10 years so I really don't care about depreciation.

I figure if the engine goes in the next 70K miles, then Mazda gives me another one for free.  That's just more incentive to drive it like you stole it.

[MX793]

Personally I'd feel bad about buying a new Rx8 because they depreciate so fast.  I can't recall another car in the segment (not monster SUV) that's depreciating faster.

When I was looking at used cars for about 10-15k, I found a bunch of them 2005+, around 30K miles or less, 6 speed, and going for 12 grand or less, all were kept in mint condition inside and out.

Having a warranty is indeed peace of mind, but all of those cars had the 8 year 100k engine warranty on them still (still about 4 years and 70K left on it), and the engine is what I'm worried about.  I can't imagine paying another 12 grand on top for pretty much the same car with 40% more warranty.  Really a bit more warranty isn't worth 12 grand.  I bought an extended warranty for my Z06 for about 1-2k, and I still think I was ripped off.

I'd be leary of buying a used RX for a number of reasons.  First off, there were a lot of improvements made for the Gen 2 cars in '09 that improved engine lubrication, etc...  Secondly, who knows if the previous owner treated the car properly (warmed the engine up properly before revving it, didn't starve it of oil, etc).  Yeah, the peace of mind of the warranty is great, but if the car breaks I'm still out of a car until it can be fixed.  And since few dealers can actually repair a Wankel, "fixed" can mean waiting for a whole new motor to be installed.  The odds of a car that has been treated correctly from mile 1 breaking is going to be a lot less than one that may or may not have been ragged on for 30K miles.   

Additionally, as I've said many many times, used car selection in this part of the country is EXTREMELY limited, particularly when it comes to performance type cars.  Partly because there isn't a huge population around here.  There's fewer than 800K people in my county and the 4 adjacent counties combined (which covers over 4100 sq miles).  There's 3 times that number of people in the greater Pittsburgh metro area (a region roughly half as large).  Obviously, a smaller group of car owners means a smaller selection of available used cars to choose from.  Toss in other demographic factors and the selection of the types of cars I'm looking for (relatively impractical, sporty cars) gets slimmer still.

For comparison, there are a grand total of 2 used RX-8s on Autotrader within a 75 mile radius of me (both '04s, both listed for $15K, both automatics).  There are 15 used RXs within a 75 mile radius of Pittsburgh.

This limited used car selection is why I've pretty much ruled out used cars.  Finding what I want in such a limited used market is truly like finding a needle in a haystack.  You could literally wait around for months to find just one used example of a car equipped the way I'd like.  I don't have the patience.

[r0tor]

yes the hauling ability of the RX8 is a bit odd... it will fit 4 people as easily or even slightly more comfortable then my friends 3er, yet the only way I can fit a snowboard in the damn thing is on the passenger seat if i lay it down 

[nickdrinkwater]

I don't know, I just couldn't live with the face of the new '8.  I love the previous gen tho.

[Onslaught]

Going to test drive an R3 tonight at 6:00 and see what they're like. I sat in one last weekend but didn't drive it.

[NomisR]

Going to test drive an R3 tonight at 6:00 and see what they're like. I sat in one last weekend but didn't drive it.

Unless you're going to buy it.. or you have something better at home.. I wouldn't.. because you'll end up thinking about it all the time until you breakdown and buy it.