NJSP Troopers to get daily MADD propaganda before starting their shifts

[bing_oh]

Is this a serious post?

He's actually arguing that DUI isn't a safety issue but a moneymaking issue. What do you think?

[r0tor]

Is this a serious post?

yes it is because of Officer Douchebag that followed my sober ass out of a bar, lied about a speeding infraction, lied out his ass that I appeared "drunk", then made me perform an bunch of balancing acts on the side of a damn hill, and finished by saying "it was all for my own safety".

Now I hear Officer Douchebag was justified in doing all that because we are all trying to be "safe"?  So yes, I believe carrying a gun is about as much reasonable suspicion of killing someone as pulling out of a bar in a reasonable suspician I'm drunk.

[bing_oh]

yes it is because of Officer Douchebag that followed my sober ass out of a bar, lied about a speeding infraction, lied out his ass that I appeared "drunk", then made me perform an bunch of balancing acts on the side of a damn hill, and finished by saying "it was all for my own safety".

Now I hear Officer Douchebag was justified in doing all that because we are all trying to be "safe"?  So yes, I believe carrying a gun is about as much reasonable suspicion of killing someone as pulling out of a bar in a reasonable suspician I'm drunk.

Did you get arrested?

[r0tor]

Do you know what it feels like to have a .08 BAC? Not "I think" or "somewhere around there," but a .08 BAC? As I've said, I do, and it's not a safe condition to drive in. So, talk about "driving fine" and "paying attention," it's not gonna fly with me. He's a risk and I'm making the roads safer by removing him from them.

I have seen people act ridiculously drunk at BAC levels far below .08.  I've seen people remain incredibly sober acting and appearing right up until the point they passed out.  BAC levels were established to back up a case in court after a person who was visibly intoxicated was pulled over.  Now it seems, its common strategy to bypass the actual condition of the driver and go straight to what will convict him or not.

[r0tor]

Did you get arrested?

No, but i did get so nervous that I almost lost my balance and then would have... and that also shows how much of BS my "speeding" was as I didn't even get a warning out of it

[GoCougs]

He's actually arguing that DUI isn't a safety issue but a moneymaking issue. What do you think?

I reject the money-making impetus for traffic enforcement in its entirety.

[r0tor]

I reject the money-making impetus for traffic enforcement in its entirety.

My recent infraction was due to a grant the department received to improve "traffic safety" on a stretch of road and as I'm told by an officer on the force had a quota attached to it

[bing_oh]

I have seen people act ridiculously drunk at BAC levels far below .08.  I've seen people remain incredibly sober acting and appearing right up until the point they passed out.  BAC levels were established to back up a case in court after a person who was visibly intoxicated was pulled over.  Now it seems, its common strategy to bypass the actual condition of the driver and go straight to what will convict him or not.

BAC levels were passed into law based on medical evaluations and to remove most of the individual bias from DUI enforcement, to the benefit of the driver. Otherwise, DUI enforcement would be totally up to the opinion and whim of the individual officer. And, there's still a section of law (at least in Ohio) that permits me to charge for DUI even if someone is under the .08 per se limit if I can prove impairment.

[GoCougs]

yes it is because of Officer Douchebag that followed my sober ass out of a bar, lied about a speeding infraction, lied out his ass that I appeared "drunk", then made me perform an bunch of balancing acts on the side of a damn hill, and finished by saying "it was all for my own safety".

Now I hear Officer Douchebag was justified in doing all that because we are all trying to be "safe"?  So yes, I believe carrying a gun is about as much reasonable suspicion of killing someone as pulling out of a bar in a reasonable suspician I'm drunk.

You left what is 99.56% likely a major DUI haven and got nabbed for speeding. Seems pretty cut-n-dry what the not-unreasonable next steps would be.

[bing_oh]

No, but i did get so nervous that I almost lost my balance and then would have... and that also shows how much of BS my "speeding" was as I didn't even get a warning out of it

Well, that kinda blows your theory about DUI and moneymaking out of the water, doesn't it? I mean, if the officer lied from the very beginning and about everything related to the stop, why not lie about you failing the tests and arrest you? After all, if it's all about the cash, then he totally failed because he didn't make a single thin dime off of you and your traffic stop.

Or, maybe you're just pissed off because you think you got stopped unjustly and put through SFST's and you've got a chip on your shoulder about it. And, maybe you don't like to hear the actual logical reasons why you were stopped and put through SFST's because it doesn't support that chip.

[GoCougs]

My recent infraction was due to a grant the department received to improve "traffic safety" on a stretch of road and as I'm told by an officer on the force had a quota attached to it

Where is money "made" if the grant was to "enforce" safety? Sounds like a wash to me.

[bing_oh]

You left what is 99.56% likely a major DUI haven and got nabbed for speeding. Seems pretty cut-n-dry what the not-unreasonable next steps would be.

You make a valid point that the vast majority of DUI arrests are made out of unrelated minor traffic stops. And, these aren't necessarily "leaner" DUI's. Some of them are people with extremely high BAC's and extreme impairment levels.

[Tave]

I've got personal experience with knowing exactly what a .08 BAC feels like. You will never convince me it's ok to drive at that level.

Everyone who drinks knows what a .08 BAC feels like. It affects people differently. Some people are OK to drive at .08, others are not.

One thing is for sure: the majority of fatal alcohol-related accidents occur WELL over .08

[Eye of the Tiger]

.08 BAC is for pussies. I can drive with 8.0 BAC better than I can sober.

[Tave]

BAC levels were passed into law based on medical evaluations and to remove most of the individual bias from DUI enforcement, to the benefit of the driver.

And they've been systematically eviscerated due to political pressure.

[bing_oh]

Everyone who drinks knows what a .08 BAC feels like. It affects people differently. Some people are OK to drive at .08, others are not.

One thing is for sure: the majority of fatal alcohol-related accidents occur WELL over .08

But they don't know what it feels like to be at .08...in other words, people don't know it when they're at .08 because they don't have any way to measure BAC when they're drinking. I can associate a level of intoxication with a BAC because I've been monitored while drinking, something that your average drinker cannot do.

I do not agree that BAC effects people all that differently. Perhaps some people tolerate alcohol better than others...any look at a career alcoholic shows that an alcohol tolerance can be built up...but they all show the same decrease in motor skills, divided attention skills, and reaction time, which is the problem with alcohol and driving. That's what the SFST's measure and the indicators are directly connected to the .08 BAC level.

[bing_oh]

And they've been systematically eviscerated due to political pressure.

Oh, comeon. Do you know why the SFST's didn't change when the BAC level was dropped from .10 to .08? Because the indicators of impairment are already there at .08.

[Tave]

But they don't know what it feels like to be at .08...in other words, people don't know it when they're at .08 because they don't have any way to measure BAC when they're drinking. I can associate a level of intoxication with a BAC because I've been monitored while drinking, something that your average drinker cannot do.

Uh sorry, no. I can't even count the number of times I've seen BAC measuring devices handed out around bars and college campuses (often by MADD and the city police).

Oh, comeon. Do you know why the SFST's didn't change when the BAC level was dropped from .10 to .08? Because the indicators of impairment are already there at .08.

The more important point is that the level never needed to change to .08, because the people at .10 weren't the ones causing the problem.

[Tave]

I do not agree that BAC effects people all that differently.

Agree with whatever you want--it's an established medical fact that the effects of alcohol differ from person to person, according to a huge variety of factors.

[bing_oh]

Uh sorry, no. I can't even count the number of times I've seen BAC measuring devices handed out around bars and college campuses (often by MADD and the city police).

Never heard of such a practice or seen it, even after 10 years in LE with some of it being in university policing. I'm still not sure the practical purpose...knowing the average bar crowd, I'd think that most patrons would be more interested in seeing how high their BAC can go rather than what they feel like in a controlled environment at as close to .08 BAC as possible. People partying at a bar aren't usually open to a learning experiecne in safe driving...

The more important point is that the level never needed to change to .08, because the people at .10 weren't the ones causing the problem.

They aren't? If I may ask, how do you know this?

[Tave]

Never heard of such a practice or seen it, even after 10 years in LE with some of it being in university policing. I'm still not sure the practical purpose...knowing the average bar crowd, I'd think that most patrons would be more interested in seeing how high their BAC can go rather than what they feel like in a controlled environment at as close to .08 BAC as possible. People partying at a bar aren't usually open to a learning experiecne in safe driving...

Regardless, they know what it feels like.

They aren't? If I may ask, how do you know this?

Like I said, the majority of drunk-driving fatalities are high BACs.

[bing_oh]

There are actually several studies from around the world that advocate a lowering of the BAC level to under .08, with indications that there is a measurable effect on alcohol-related crashes. There are also associated laboratory studies that show that people are "significantly impaired" at a BAC of .05, with measurable effects on psychomotor skills, visual acuity, vigilance, drowsiness, and information processing.

http://www.icadts.org/T2004/pdfs/O54.pdf

[Tave]

There are also associated laboratory studies that show that people are "significantly impaired" at a BAC of .05, with measurable effects on psychomotor skills, visual acuity, vigilance, drowsiness, and information processing.

I'm sure that I show "significant impairment" when I only got 6 hours of sleep the night before. I'm sure I show "significant impairment" after a fight with my girlfriend. That doesn't mean it should be illegal for me to drive to work, and it doesn't mean I'm going to cause an accident.

[Tave]

Hell, I'm sure driver A has worse motor skills than driver B even when both drivers are stone-cold sober.

[bing_oh]

Like I said, the majority of drunk-driving fatalities are high BACs.

Does that make a difference to the estimated 3767 people who died in 2008 in alcohol-related crashes involving people with a BAC of under a .15?

http://www.centurycouncil.org/learn-the-facts/drunk-driving-research

Alcohol has a measurable detriemntal effect on the skills necessary to operate a motor vehicle safely. How you can argue that fact is beyond me.

[bing_oh]

I'm sure that I show "significant impairment" when I only got 6 hours of sleep the night before. I'm sure I show "significant impairment" after a fight with my girlfriend. That doesn't mean it should be illegal for me to drive to work, and it doesn't mean I'm going to cause an accident.

What more do you want, exactly? I'm quoting multiple studies and accepted laboratory experiments that proves that alcohol measurably impairs driving skills.

[Tave]

Does that make a difference to the estimated 3767 people who died in 2008 in alcohol-related crashes involving people with a BAC of under a .15?

http://www.centurycouncil.org/learn-the-facts/drunk-driving-research

Raw numbers mean relatively little.

Neither does the victim card. As if my friends and family have never been hurt by drunk driving.

Alcohol has a measurable detriemntal effect on the skills necessary to operate a motor vehicle safely. How you can argue that fact is beyond me.

All I'm saying is that the .08 is artificially low owing to political furor. I'm not arguing that alcohol consumption and driving is dangerous. I'm arguing AT WHAT POINT IS THE DANGER.

Per the website you posted, 70% of the fatalities in question involve a driver with a BAC over .15

[JWC]

This isn't about searching house-to-house for drug dealers, it's about checkpoints and DUI enforcement. The courts have ruled that checkpoints are a minimal intrusion, very different from searching your house, and are illegal if the intrusion is not minimal. That's why time limits on stops and contacts are strictly enforced at DUI checkpoints and there is a required "escape path" if someone doesn't want to go through the checkpoint.

As for a search of a vehice, you have every right to refuse a consentual search. But, understand that different rules apply to vehicle searches and there are established exceptions because of their mobile nature. An officer doesn't necessarily need a warrant to search a vehicle.

My understanding is that a search is legal, IF possible contraband is in plain sight.  Otherwise, you have to consent to the search.

[r0tor]

Well, that kinda blows your theory about DUI and moneymaking out of the water, doesn't it? I mean, if the officer lied from the very beginning and about everything related to the stop, why not lie about you failing the tests and arrest you? After all, if it's all about the cash, then he totally failed because he didn't make a single thin dime off of you and your traffic stop.

Or, maybe you're just pissed off because you think you got stopped unjustly and put through SFST's and you've got a chip on your shoulder about it. And, maybe you don't like to hear the actual logical reasons why you were stopped and put through SFST's because it doesn't support that chip.

No it does not disprove anything.  The officer followed me out of the bar.  He pulled me over for speeding and never had any evidence to prove I was speeding to actually issue me a ticket.  He lied about me looking intoxicated.  When I passed all 3 of the tests he gave me, he became visibly upset that he wasted his time on me and told me to get lost it a terribly pissy attitude.  I have a witness to the whole fiasco.

What that night did accomplish was that was the last time I ever and I mean EVER volunteered to be a designated driver.  It does not pay to put your own neck on the line to keep your friends who like to get wasted safe apparently.  Ironically myself and my best friend were the only two out of my group of friends who I actually trust to drive because the others are completely incompetent and now neither of us will drive anyone - I was almost nabbed and he was nabbed last year 2 blocks from his house driving a person home who was suppose to be a designated driver. 

Since that single event, I have also never trusted my fate in the hands of a police officer no matter how proud I am to be a law abiding citizen as all it takes is 1 cop in a bad mood to crap all over your life.

[r0tor]

my other experience was at a DUI checkpoint.  i was at a late night movie.  Got stopped at the checkpoint.  The officer started questioning me and repeatedly did not believe I came from a movie theatre and got within a few inches of my face trying to smell my breathe.  Had the nerve to ask me what the hell i was chewing gum for!  He   then proceeded to rather pissily check my license, registration, insurance, plates, inspection, headlights, tailights, turnsignals, and mother frikkin tire tread depth