C&D Lightning Lap 4 out

[Raza]

Sounds like a total Playstation controller.

Yet so many cars (like the GT-R) also get praise for being easy to drive at the limit...

EDIT:  I admit, I'm the first to criticize a car for being too easy to drive, but perhaps, there is more depth to the TT driving experience than one would imagine upon reading reviews.  I've driven a few examples of the first gen TT 225, and while it was definitely slower and more dimwitted than a cheaper 350Z, it was more fun, the performance more accessible, and the rear end more willing to move off throttle, its charms easily won me over.

[Tave]

Yet so many cars (like the GT-R) also get praise for being easy to drive at the limit...

No, it gets ripped on by most of the forum for being easy to drive at the limit. But I guess when VW releases something similar, it's all peaches and cream to you.

[Raza]

No, it gets ripped on by most of the forum for being easy to drive at the limit. But I guess when VW releases something similar, it's all peaches and cream to you.

See edit. 

[565]

Damn I want to see this issue now, sounds like it was great.

That's sad about the NISMO Z though, I didn't get to see the article but I guess the brakes self destructed?

[r0tor]

Sounds like a total Playstation controller.

A miata is easy to drive at the limit because of how much feel you get through the controls - thats what makes it so great.  A GT-R is easy to drive at the limits because it drives for you - thus the criticism.  The TT-S is more towards the miata then the GT-R.

[SVT666]

A miata is easy to drive at the limit because of how much feel you get through the controls - thats what makes it so great.  A GT-R is easy to drive at the limits because it drives for you - thus the criticism.  The TT-S is more towards the miata then the GT-R.

Why does the GT-R get ripped on for all the electronics when a Ferrari has more?

[Raza]

Why does the GT-R get ripped on for all the electronics when a Ferrari has more?

Ferraris are Italian, so they get a pass.


(Not from me though.)

[r0tor]

Why does the GT-R get ripped on for all the electronics when a Ferrari has more?

Because apparently there is a monumental amount of difference in feel....

[SVT666]

Because apparently there is a monumental amount of difference in feel....

Big deal.  No one criticizes the GT-R for lack of feel.  It's always about the tech.  Ferraris have more tech then any other car on the road and they get a pass.  Believe me, I don't like the GT-R but this is BS.

[r0tor]

No, the criticism is usually around the car feeling "robotic" because of the tech....

[SVT666]

No, the criticism is usually around the car feeling "robotic" because of the tech....

No.  I have never read one single review that stated it felt robotic.  Every review I've read says it's staggering.  It's all the users on this forum who have never driven it that call it robotic, or call it a computer on wheels.  I mean, damn.  The Ferrari F430 has so much tech in it the steering wheel is covered in knobs and buttons, yet nobody complains about all that tech.

[Raza]

The Ferrari F430 has so much tech in it the steering wheel is covered in knobs and buttons, yet nobody complains about all that tech.

I do.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

  The Ferrari F430 has so much tech in it the steering wheel is covered in knobs and buttons, yet nobody complains about all that tech.

Ain't that the truth!

[68_427]

Viper ACR totally owned the ZR1.

As it should.  If it didn't that would have been a problem.

[sportyaccordy]

No.  I have never read one single review that stated it felt robotic.  Every review I've read says it's staggering.  It's all the users on this forum who have never driven it that call it robotic, or call it a computer on wheels.  I mean, damn.  The Ferrari F430 has so much tech in it the steering wheel is covered in knobs and buttons, yet nobody complains about all that tech.

I have read a few reviews that have said the tech is a bit much. And even with all the "tech", fundamentally the Ferrari F whatever is still a naturally aspirated mid engined sports car, usually well under 3200 lbs. Plus with the tech the Ferraris still look and sound great. A Ferrari can still bite your head off and gives you the option to REALLY remove all safety nets. The GT-R, even out of TC/whatever mode, still uses its supercomputers to maximize grip & power so you don't ever have to fully master it. That's the difference.

[SVT666]

I have read a few reviews that have said the tech is a bit much. And even with all the "tech", fundamentally the Ferrari F whatever is still a naturally aspirated mid engined sports car, usually well under 3200 lbs. Plus with the tech the Ferraris still look and sound great. A Ferrari can still bite your head off and gives you the option to REALLY remove all safety nets. The GT-R, even out of TC/whatever mode, still uses its supercomputers to maximize grip & power so you don't ever have to fully master it. That's the difference.

Ferraris won't be naturally aspirated much longer according to...Ferrari.  And only one of their cars weighs under 3200 lbs.

Ferrari 458 = 3042 lbs
Ferrari California = 3594 lbs
Ferrari 599 = 3726 lbs
Ferrari 612 = 3803 lbs

The only reason Ferraris get away with having all those buttons and that knob on the steering wheel is because it's a Ferrari.  If anyone else did the same thing, they would get ripped a new one by the automotive press and internet forum posters.

[Onslaught]

I love how people blast the GT-R in the place and as far as I know not one of us have driven one.

[hotrodalex]

As it should.  If it didn't that would have been a problem.

As for the GT-R, I'm just not a huge fan of it because of the looks. The TT-S (and RS) look great though. I might have to test drive one sometime, especially if they are that fast.

[2o6]

I don't understand what's so bad for a car to be easy to drive at the limit.


At $70K, the GTR is practically affordable and can find it's way into many owners. It would suck to buy a car that you really can't drive at the limit.

[hotrodalex]

I don't understand what's so bad for a car to be easy to drive at the limit.


At $70K, the GTR is practically affordable and can find it's way into many owners. It would suck to buy a car that you really can't drive at the limit.

I believe it's 80k now, and not that many have a chance to buy it. But yes, you don't want to buy a car and wreck it the first time you get to put it through its paces.

[sportyaccordy]

Ferraris won't be naturally aspirated much longer according to...Ferrari.  And only one of their cars weighs under 3200 lbs.

Ferrari 458 = 3042 lbs
Ferrari California = 3594 lbs
Ferrari 599 = 3726 lbs
Ferrari 612 = 3803 lbs

The only reason Ferraris get away with having all those buttons and that knob on the steering wheel is because it's a Ferrari.  If anyone else did the same thing, they would get ripped a new one by the automotive press and internet forum posters.

"A Ferrari F whatever is still under 3200 lbs"- F40, F355, F430, F50, F60, F458

And there are plenty of sports cars with extensive configuration capabilities that don't get universally ripped on like the GT-R. I mean the 1997 Lexus ES 300 had electronically selectable damping stiffness, but I don't think that was the harbinger of doom.

Like I-Drive, the GT-R is indicative of what might be a big shift for manufacturers. It's incredibly competent, it's apparently fun to drive, and it is a threat to everything this side of maybe a 458 Italia or McLaren F1 on a race track. But it's heavy, it's ugly, and it's incredibly complex, even with all the electronic nannies in place. Thankfully I don't see cars like the GT3 or Miata going anywhere, but what bothers me most about it is the potential for the GT-R to be indicative of a new theme in sports cars. I mean you even see it with the 458 Italia a bit- magnetorheological shocks, the function over form body design etc... but at the end of the day, like I said, it's still a 580 HP, 3000lb mid engined car, and when you turn all the safeties off, it will treat you as such. You turn the GT-R's safeties off, you still have a torque vectoring, twin driveshafted 3800# AWD car that doesn't even look or sound good. IDK... yea it's great on the track and all but I need more than a track car.

[SVT666]

"A Ferrari F whatever is still under 3200 lbs"- F40, F355, F430, F50, F60, F458

And there are plenty of sports cars with extensive configuration capabilities that don't get universally ripped on like the GT-R. I mean the 1997 Lexus ES 300 had electronically selectable damping stiffness, but I don't think that was the harbinger of doom.

Like I-Drive, the GT-R is indicative of what might be a big shift for manufacturers. It's incredibly competent, it's apparently fun to drive, and it is a threat to everything this side of maybe a 458 Italia or McLaren F1 on a race track. But it's heavy, it's ugly, and it's incredibly complex, even with all the electronic nannies in place. Thankfully I don't see cars like the GT3 or Miata going anywhere, but what bothers me most about it is the potential for the GT-R to be indicative of a new theme in sports cars. I mean you even see it with the 458 Italia a bit- magnetorheological shocks, the function over form body design etc... but at the end of the day, like I said, it's still a 580 HP, 3000lb mid engined car, and when you turn all the safeties off, it will treat you as such. You turn the GT-R's safeties off, you still have a torque vectoring, twin driveshafted 3800# AWD car that doesn't even look or sound good. IDK... yea it's great on the track and all but I need more than a track car.

See that's where I think the GT-R probably outshines most supercars...on real roads.  Do you think the 458 would hang with the GT-R on a "real" two lane backroad in most parts of this continent?  I highly doubt it.

[MrH]

"A Ferrari F whatever is still under 3200 lbs"- F40, F355, F430, F50, F60, F458

And there are plenty of sports cars with extensive configuration capabilities that don't get universally ripped on like the GT-R. I mean the 1997 Lexus ES 300 had electronically selectable damping stiffness, but I don't think that was the harbinger of doom.

Like I-Drive, the GT-R is indicative of what might be a big shift for manufacturers. It's incredibly competent, it's apparently fun to drive, and it is a threat to everything this side of maybe a 458 Italia or McLaren F1 on a race track. But it's heavy, it's ugly, and it's incredibly complex, even with all the electronic nannies in place. Thankfully I don't see cars like the GT3 or Miata going anywhere, but what bothers me most about it is the potential for the GT-R to be indicative of a new theme in sports cars. I mean you even see it with the 458 Italia a bit- magnetorheological shocks, the function over form body design etc... but at the end of the day, like I said, it's still a 580 HP, 3000lb mid engined car, and when you turn all the safeties off, it will treat you as such. You turn the GT-R's safeties off, you still have a torque vectoring, twin driveshafted 3800# AWD car that doesn't even look or sound good. IDK... yea it's great on the track and all but I need more than a track car.

As 565 corrected me before, the GTR doesn't have torque vectoring side to side.  The Ferrari does.

Please, at least be knowledgeable about what you're bitching about.  The new Italia has more techno-gadgets than ever.  And it's not a bad thing...

[sportyaccordy]

As 565 corrected me before, the GTR doesn't have torque vectoring side to side.  The Ferrari does.

Please, at least be knowledgeable about what you're bitching about.  The new Italia has more techno-gadgets than ever.  And it's not a bad thing...

I was on another forum talking with someone about the merits of SH-AWD in the RL.... got them confused, I remember 565 bringing this up before.

In any case, the tech helps both cars immensely, and when the gloves are off the 458 Italia is still a thoroughbred Ferrari.

[SVT666]

I was on another forum talking with someone about the merits of SH-AWD in the RL.... got them confused, I remember 565 bringing this up before.

In any case, the tech helps both cars immensely, and when the gloves are off the 458 Italia is still a thoroughbred Ferrari.

Without all the tech though, the Ferrari is probably unmanageable.

[sportyaccordy]

Without all the tech though, the Ferrari is probably unmanageable.

Maybe at its limits, but I'm sure it's still thrilling at even 3/10ths. Plus having to actually master a car to me seems like a more interesting proposition than a car that's mastered by the computer. Which car do you think would be more fun to drive.... a Cayman S or a GT-R?

[SVT666]

Maybe at its limits, but I'm sure it's still thrilling at even 3/10ths. Plus having to actually master a car to me seems like a more interesting proposition than a car that's mastered by the computer. Which car do you think would be more fun to drive.... a Cayman S or a GT-R?

Okay, now that your Ferrari argument was lost, you're moving to the Cayman?  Nobody tries to master a Ferrari with all the tech off.  You wouldn't either because you wouldn't want to wrap your $300,000 car around a tree.  To drive the Ferrari fast and safe, you need the tech.  The Cayman doesn't have 560 hp so it doesn't need all the tech even though it's not exactly a bare bones car either.

[r0tor]

There is more to the GT-R and the "torque vectoring" then meets the eye.

The center differential is computer controlled based on wheel slip and yaw rates.  Nissan also claims they have the first AWD system with "yaw-feedback control" which claims it can correct yaw rates through the AWD system.  So while it doesn't have a Honda/Audi/Ferrari differential that can over speed a wheel side to side, it has a system that utilizes the ABS system and the properties of its differentials to shift power front/rear and side/side to acheive the desired yaw rates.

[sportyaccordy]

Okay, now that your Ferrari argument was lost, you're moving to the Cayman?  Nobody tries to master a Ferrari with all the tech off.  You wouldn't either because you wouldn't want to wrap your $300,000 car around a tree.  To drive the Ferrari fast and safe, you need the tech.  The Cayman doesn't have 560 hp so it doesn't need all the tech even though it's not exactly a bare bones car either.

People do master Ferraris with no tech. From the Ferrari Challenge to the track only FXX there are definitely modern Ferraris built for road racing.

The GT-R is fool proof. You can't spin one. You choose a terrible line on a turn, it will fix it for you, and regardless of your throttle input it will apply power as efficiently as possible. Even with the safety stuff on, you have to think a little bit in a Ferrari. I prefer the latter to the former.

[Payman]

This is why I loved my old Karmann Ghia. At 60 mph on a twisty road, it was hairy and exciting. No car today can match the thrills at legal speeds. I'd have to take the GT-R to 150 or so to get the same thrills, and even then it's driving me, instead of me driving it. I think the closest I can come today, besides another Ghia, is to get a Beck 550 Spyder.